Florida bishop on hurricanes: 'We don't have the same theology as Pat Robertson'

[Lisa4Catholics]

Philip P:

We can’t even predict something as relatively simple and benign as what the weather will be next week, yet we presume to read the deep purposes of God in this same weather. Talk about presumption.

More important, and far more fruitful from a moral and theological point of view, is not why hurricanes or other disasters happen, but how we respond to them. Do we price gouge, loot, and generally take advantage of our neighbors? Or do we rise to the challenge and act with love to our neighbors particularly when the situation is most trying and difficult?

Rain and sunshine fall on the just and unjust alike, and I won’t even pretend to know the deep reasons behind how and why God acts. As for my own actions, and in a larger sense those of my society, though, I am responsible, and that seems to be the truly relevant point.

The presumption I make is God loves us and chastises us,that is made clear:nope: Are you trying to limit the way he does so he did so with natural disasters before,I do not say that the people who suffer this are more guilty than the anyone else but some seem to forget that chastisement can serve as a warning and an act of mercy.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

stumbler:

When the Orlando City Council voted in 1998 to allow gay organizations to hang rainbow banners from municipal flagpoles to coincide with Gay Days, Robertson warned that the city was risking not only hurricanes, but also earthquakes and terrorist bombs.

Wenski distanced himself from the notion of weather as heavenly retribution.

“We don’t have the same theology as Pat Robertson,” Wenski said before the Mass. “Hurricanes are not a divine punishment.”

It was irresponsible of Pat Robertson to imply that future hurricanes visited upon Florida might be clearly seen as the fault of the Orlando City Council, or that gays should be blamed for earthquakes. Unless terrorists feel the same way about gays as Pat Robertson does, it is hardly likely that it will bring on bombings, either!

It is one thing to say that God ordains the weather according to His Wisdom, and to pray that we not be put to the test. It is quite another to make it a “prophesy” that entirely likely future disasters might correctly be put on the doorstep of a select few among us sinners. What does Mr. Robertson hope to accomplish? An “I told you so!.. in the future, you’d better listen to me!”? If I didn’t have some hope that he meant well, I’d wonder if he wasn’t flim-flamming for Jesus.

The Gospel doesn’t need made up scare tactics. For the wise, the truth is both warning and invitation enough. For the foolish, our self-indulgence in our own foolishness will only send them further down the river.

That our theology is not Mr. Robertson’s is a point he would be the last to dispute. For instance, I worry that to encourage people in the thinking that they might use the power of prayer to steer the Will of God to follow their own wills borders on the advocacy of magic. “Not my will, but thy Will be done… and if that means more hurricanes, then please help me to hold on all the more tightly to You.” My sense–and I hope I am wrong!–is that Mr. Robertson is less strict on this. Otherwise, he would give sole credit to the mercy of God for their salvation from the storm, and not credit the power of their own prayers.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

stumbler:

When the Orlando City Council voted in 1998 to allow gay organizations to hang rainbow banners from municipal flagpoles to coincide with Gay Days, Robertson warned that the city was risking not only hurricanes, but also earthquakes and terrorist bombs.

Wenski distanced himself from the notion of weather as heavenly retribution.

“We don’t have the same theology as Pat Robertson,” Wenski said before the Mass. “Hurricanes are not a divine punishment.”

It was irresponsible of Pat Robertson to imply that future hurricanes visited upon Florida might be clearly seen as the fault of the Orlando City Council, or that gays should be blamed for earthquakes. Unless terrorists feel the same way about gays as Pat Robertson does, it is hardly likely that it will bring on bombings, either!

It is one thing to say that God ordains the weather according to His Wisdom, and to pray that we not be put to the test. It is quite another to make it a “prophesy” that entirely likely future disasters might correctly be put on the doorstep of a select few among us sinners. What does Mr. Robertson hope to accomplish? An “I told you so!.. in the future, you’d better listen to me!”? If I didn’t have some hope that he meant well, I’d wonder if he wasn’t flim-flamming for Jesus.

The Gospel doesn’t need made up scare tactics. For the wise, the truth is both warning and invitation enough. For the foolish, indulgence in our own foolishness will only send them further down the river.

That our theology is not Mr. Robertson’s is a point he would be the last to dispute. For instance, I worry that to encourage people in the thinking that they might use the power of prayer to steer the Will of God to follow their own wills borders on the advocacy of magic. “Not my will, but thy Will be done… and if that means more hurricanes, then please help me to hold on all the more tightly to You.” My sense–and I hope I am wrong!–is that Mr. Robertson is less strict on this. Otherwise, he would give sole credit to the mercy of God for their salvation from the storm, and not credit the power of their own prayers.

 

[Digitonomy]

Florida is certainly among the less healthy parts of the world in terms of people being overweight. We shouldn’t rule out gluttony as a possible cause of the hurricane.

 

[EddieArent]

IMO the bishop made the statement because the diocese priests rarely talk about sin. To them, everyone is good. So, if everyone is good and do no evil, then how can God punish anyone? Throw out the Crucifixes (and the old marble altars, the altar rails, statutes of Saints, etc but that’s off topic for now) that remind us what our Lord had to do and suffer in order to redeem the world because of our sins and replace them with “risen Christs” which take away the reminder of sin and redemption but focuses on the resurection aspect only.

Once again, just one man’s opinion haven spent 19 years in the diocese and having not heard one sermon on sin.

 

[tuopaolo]

I think maybe what the bishop meant was that hurricanes are not always a divine punishment of everyone it afflicts.

If the bishop had meant that hurricans are never a divine punishment for anyone it afflicts, then I agree with fix in his characterization of the statement.

 

[fix]

“We don’t have the same theology as Pat Robertson,” Wenski said before the Mass. “Hurricanes are not a divine punishment.”

How does the bishop know this?

 

[Philip_P]

You know, I guess he doesn’t. Neither can anyone know for sure that George Bush winning a second term is not diving punishment. Nor can we know that two terms of a Clinton presidency were not divine punishment. Nor can I say, for certain, that the fact that it got really hot last night and made it uncomfortable to sleep was not divine punishment for some transgression I may have committed.

Surely you see the problems with trying to claim a hurricane, or any other event, is a divine punishment? You would have to know what you are being punished for. You would have to know that it was God’s will to punish you for this sin. In the case of a large-scale disaster, you would have to assume that God cares not for the innocent mixed in with the guilty (or else claim that ALL are equally guilty). You might also then conclude that the ABSENCE of a hurrican is a divine blessing (Las Vegas NEVER has hurricanes, so is it the most blessed and holy place on earth?)

It’s a much more difficult, and potentially pernicious, claim to say that a hurrican IS divine punishment.

 

[David_Paul]

Most of us will admit we are here by divine Grace.

I see many Catholics, especially those in political office, who seem not to believe this.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

fix:

I do not, that is why I do not make stupid remarks as the bishop did. It is one thing to say it may or may not be the ordained will of God and try to make a case in either direction, but it is foolish to say with certainty that one knows that God did not intend it as a punishment.

Yeah, and like, who is so high-minded to “read providence” infallibly? Like, I don’t know… nobody.

But then again… check out Amos 3:6,7
If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?
Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets.

So, I guess since we don’t have prophets exactly equivalent to OT prophets (do we???) then we’re left with cultivating a hatred of sin and a fear of God.

That’s a really great topic to meditate upon, the Lord’s use of natural calamities and the like to punish sinners and those who don’t do something about it, at least praying and mourning for sin. Remember Ezekiel 9!!

Yeah, so it seems that it’s at least justifiable, at least on Scriptural grounds, to say that God has control over the weather and uses it to quench the flaming progression of sin in the world.

"They do not say in their heart, "Let us now fear the Lord our God, Who gives rain in it’s due season… “Your iniquities have turned these (the autumn and spring rain) away.”
Jeremiah 5:24,25

 

[David_Paul]

I miss the point. Could you put it in another way?

 

[fix]

Philip P:

You know, I guess he doesn’t. Neither can anyone know for sure that George Bush winning a second term is not diving punishment. Nor can we know that two terms of a Clinton presidency were not divine punishment. Nor can I say, for certain, that the fact that it got really hot last night and made it uncomfortable to sleep was not divine punishment for some transgression I may have committed.

Surely you see the problems with trying to claim a hurricane, or any other event, is a divine punishment? You would have to know what you are being punished for. You would have to know that it was God’s will to punish you for this sin. In the case of a large-scale disaster, you would have to assume that God cares not for the innocent mixed in with the guilty (or else claim that ALL are equally guilty). You might also then conclude that the ABSENCE of a hurrican is a divine blessing (Las Vegas NEVER has hurricanes, so is it the most blessed and holy place on earth?)

It’s a much more difficult, and potentially pernicious, claim to say that a hurrican IS divine punishment.

God has punished before by natural disasters. The bible states the rain falls on the just and the unjust. There are plenty of private revelations in recent decades that speak of God punishing mankind. The bishop seemed to speak with absolute certainty on this issue and that seems to be a postion without much merit, unless he is saying God speaks directly to him and he knows infallibly that it is not a punishment.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

tuopaolo:

I think maybe what the bishop meant was that hurricanes are not always a divine punishment of everyone it afflicts.

If the bishop had meant that hurricans are never a divine punishment for anyone it afflicts, then I agree with fix in his characterization of the statement.

Yes, I think that’s probably what Our Lord meant when He ref. to the Tower of Siloam. Perhaps the bishop should have been a bit more careful in his comments. It was, however, a most laudable thing to offer the Mass for the protection of his people.

 

[Philip_P]

fix:

God has punished before by natural disasters. The bible states the rain falls on the just and the unjust. There are plenty of private revelations in recent decades that speak of God punishing mankind. The bishop seemed to speak with absolute certainty on this issue and that seems to be a postion without much merit, unless he is saying God speaks directly to him and he knows infallibly that it is not a punishment.

Another problem with the theology you seem to be suggesting, and which apparently Pat Robertson subscribes to, is that it really diminishes, rather than enhances, God. Events can serve many purposes. Let’s grant, for the sake of argument, that a storm is serving as divine punishment. Surely that’s not the ONLY thing it’s doing there? As the storm reshapes the beach, perhaps there is some purpose there that changes the food supply or habits of local marine life (we know that not even a sparrow falls without God’s knowledge, so this seems a reasonable point). Or maybe what’s a punishment for one person (house blows down) is a boon for someone else (storm keeps someone from driving who might otherwise have gotten into a car accident that day). If you have the attitude that a storm is some sort of gigantic paddle for spanking bad children, you miss a lot and reduce creation to a mere machine.

I grew up in the midwest, where every spring we have big thunderstorms. I suppose it’s possible that God, every spring, was ritually punishing us by sending hail and winds. A far more appropriate response, to my mind, is wonder and awe. Let God be God, storms be storms, and Creation be great, not some little narrow tool of a vindictive magician.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Philip P:

Another problem with the theology you seem to be suggesting, and which apparently Pat Robertson subscribes to, is that it really diminishes, rather than enhances, God. Events can serve many purposes. Let’s grant, for the sake of argument, that a storm is serving as divine punishment. Surely that’s not the ONLY thing it’s doing there? As the storm reshapes the beach, perhaps there is some purpose there that changes the food supply or habits of local marine life (we know that not even a sparrow falls without God’s knowledge, so this seems a reasonable point). Or maybe what’s a punishment for one person (house blows down) is a boon for someone else (storm keeps someone from driving who might otherwise have gotten into a car accident that day). If you have the attitude that a storm is some sort of gigantic paddle for spanking bad children, you miss a lot and reduce creation to a mere machine.

I grew up in the midwest, where every spring we have big thunderstorms. I suppose it’s possible that God, every spring, was ritually punishing us by sending hail and winds. A far more appropriate response, to my mind, is wonder and awe. Let God be God, storms be storms, and Creation be great, not some little narrow tool of a vindictive magician.

See Philip your problem is that you are are trying to think of God as a vindictive God:nope: Chastisement is just that.If you are a parent and your child does things that will harm himself or others you are going to correct that behavior by grounding or what ever method you use.It is an act of mercy as well as justice,why do you refuse to see it?Is it because some of us who deserve a chastisement didn’t get it?Every thought it could serve as a warning on those who will listen?We have the blood of over 4,000 babies a day crying out to heaven:ehh: Are you saying that God would be vindictive to chastise us?No I don’t think so,He has ever right to,we belong to Him and we are taking any and every opportunity to declare war against Him and His children.

 

[Philip_P]

Lisa4Catholics:

See Philip your problem is that you are are trying to think of God as a vindictive God:nope: Chastisement is just that.If you are a parent and your child does things that will harm himself or others you are going to correct that behavior by grounding or what ever method you use.It is an act of mercy as well as justice,why do you refuse to see it?Is it because some of us who deserve a chastisement didn’t get it?Every thought it could serve as a warning on those who will listen?We have the blood of over 4,000 babies a day crying out to heaven:ehh: Are you saying that God would be vindictive to chastise us?No I don’t think so,He has ever right to,we belong to Him and we are taking any and every opportunity to declare war against Him and His children.

‘’

Maybe if there was a nice and neat correlation between evil actions and evil consequence befalling those committing those actions, that kid of outlook would make sense. But since large scale disasters hit everyone with no regard to differences, I just can’t buy into this chastisement theology. Of course we sin and need correction and forgiveness. There’d be one less sacrifice if this wasn’t the case. But I’m put in mind of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man - the rich man asked to come back from the dead to warn his brothers of hell, and Abraham told him that if they didn’t listen to the prophets they wouldn’t listen to one returned from the dead. If people aren’t already concerned about the state of their souls, I’m not sure what good indiscriminate destruction to a city or region is going to do.

 

[Other_Eric]

’’

Maybe if there was a nice and neat correlation between evil actions and evil consequence befalling those committing those actions, that kid of outlook would make sense. But since large scale disasters hit everyone with no regard to differences, I just can’t buy into this chastisement theology. Of course we sin and need correction and forgiveness. There’d be one less sacrifice if this wasn’t the case. But I’m put in mind of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man - the rich man asked to come back from the dead to warn his brothers of hell, and Abraham told him that if they didn’t listen to the prophets they wouldn’t listen to one returned from the dead. If people aren’t already concerned about the state of their souls, I’m not sure what good indiscriminate destruction to a city or region is going to do.

Hi Philip P!

I am also reminded of the book of Job, wherein God sent plagues upon Job, a devout and faithful servant. When Job received counsel from his friends, the counsel effectively was that Job must have sinned and he should just acknowledge it to be right with God. Job’s protestations of his own innocence fell upon deaf ears until at the end of the book, God spoke from a whirlwind and chastised those who denied Job’s innocence saying “I am angry with you and with your two friends; for you have not spoken rightly concerning me, as has my servant Job.” (Job 42:7)

 

[fix]

Philip P:

Another problem with the theology you seem to be suggesting, and which apparently Pat Robertson subscribes to, is that it really diminishes, rather than enhances, God. Events can serve many purposes. Let’s grant, for the sake of argument, that a storm is serving as divine punishment. Surely that’s not the ONLY thing it’s doing there? As the storm reshapes the beach, perhaps there is some purpose there that changes the food supply or habits of local marine life (we know that not even a sparrow falls without God’s knowledge, so this seems a reasonable point). Or maybe what’s a punishment for one person (house blows down) is a boon for someone else (storm keeps someone from driving who might otherwise have gotten into a car accident that day). If you have the attitude that a storm is some sort of gigantic paddle for spanking bad children, you miss a lot and reduce creation to a mere machine.

I grew up in the midwest, where every spring we have big thunderstorms. I suppose it’s possible that God, every spring, was ritually punishing us by sending hail and winds. A far more appropriate response, to my mind, is wonder and awe. Let God be God, storms be storms, and Creation be great, not some little narrow tool of a vindictive magician.

You seem to be missing the central point. The quote from the bishop said the storm was not a punishment. How does he know? Does God not punish anymore? Does my assertion contradict any Church teaching?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Philip P:

Another problem with the theology you seem to be suggesting, and which apparently Pat Robertson subscribes to, is that it really diminishes, rather than enhances, God. Events can serve many purposes. Let’s grant, for the sake of argument, that a storm is serving as divine punishment. Surely that’s not the ONLY thing it’s doing there? As the storm reshapes the beach, perhaps there is some purpose there that changes the food supply or habits of local marine life (we know that not even a sparrow falls without God’s knowledge, so this seems a reasonable point). Or maybe what’s a punishment for one person (house blows down) is a boon for someone else (storm keeps someone from driving who might otherwise have gotten into a car accident that day). If you have the attitude that a storm is some sort of gigantic paddle for spanking bad children, you miss a lot and reduce creation to a mere machine.

I grew up in the midwest, where every spring we have big thunderstorms. I suppose it’s possible that God, every spring, was ritually punishing us by sending hail and winds. A far more appropriate response, to my mind, is wonder and awe. Let God be God, storms be storms, and Creation be great, not some little narrow tool of a vindictive magician.

I don’t think that’s what Fix was asserting at all. He didn’t say,“Hurricanes, et al, are punishments from God.” He questioned the bishop’s assertion/implication that they couldn’t be punishments from God.

 

[fix]

JKirkLVNV:

I don’t think that’s what Fix was asserting at all. He didn’t say,“Hurricanes, et al, are punishments from God.” He questioned the bishop’s assertion/implication that they couldn’t be punishments from God.

Thank you for pointing that out.

It is often said there is no such thing as a coincidence. Everything is God’s will, be it ordained or permitted.

We have decided to limit God it seems? Does the Church now teach God never punishes us in this world?