Follow up on SS

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Per_Crucem said:
The western or eastern Church?
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According to you (below) God gave you the Bible.
Per_Crucem said:
I’m satisfied with God being infallible.
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Did God hand you your Bible, or did the Catholic Church?
Per_Crucem said:
Hmm…checking for when I labeled myself arbiter of truth. Nope. Missed it. 😉
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That is exactly the position you take when you decide for yourself what is true and what is not according to your own preferences while ignoring the authority given to the Church by the very words of Christ himself.
 
Per_Crucem said:
Nope. But they infallibly say that your church is fallible. So which one is actually infallible?
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LOL! I love how non-Catholic always have the habit of mentioning the East. The topic is SS,not what the East accepts or rejects.

Your statement is too general. The East claimes the RCC is fallible? How strange since they also were part of many doctrines being ratified throughout the centuries.
 
Per_Crucem said:
Nope. But they infallibly say that your church is fallible. So which one is actually infallible?
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I always find it a little odd when a person who belongs neither to the Western nor the Eastern Church defends their own position by pitting the West against the East. The simple fact is that Luther accepted the canon of the Latin Church and so do you and that canon was given to us by the Catholic Church. It did not drop out of heaven with a little note from God telling us that it was his word. He guided human beings to both write and discern the word of God.
 
SteveVH said:
That is exactly the position you take when you decide for yourself what is true and what is not according to your own preferences while ignoring the authority given to the Church by the very words of Christ himself.
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I look at the evidence of Scripture and history, pray and come to a conclusion. Just like you.
 
SteveVH said:
I always find it a little odd when a person who belongs neither to the Western nor the Eastern Church defends their own position by pitting the West against the East.
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Yes. Because if you raise the specter of infallibility, I am going to ask you to infallibly determine which infallible magisterium is actually infallible. Your claim is no more or less credible than theirs, after all. Every argument for it you can make, they can make. You posit the impossibility of an infallible church ever being wrong on dogma or failing, yet clearly that happened in the schism. I think both are, to varying degrees. I, however, am not claiming infallibility for either of them.
 
joe371 said:
Judged and normed, when doctrinal disunity arises, by the teaching office of he Lutheran Church? The LC is definitely not a SS proponent, in the strictest sense i.e. like us you defer to church teaching office and they use one two and three? My good friend JonNC says the same thing. The LC is a lot like the CC. 👍 🙂
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Scripture tells us to take it to the Church. Why is doing so not sola scriptura, Joe?

Jon
 
Nicea325 said:
LOL! I love how non-Catholic always have the habit of mentioning the East. The topic is SS,not what the East accepts or rejects.
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Yes, we’re discussing SS in comparison to sola ecclesia. If the Catholic argumentation is to bring up disagreements over Scripture, other denominations, etc. in order to counter SS, how is it not fair to bring up multiple church bodies that hold to sola ecclesia?
Your statement is too general. The East claimes the RCC is fallible? How strange since they also were part of many doctrines being ratified throughout the centuries.
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Absolutely, they do.
 
Per_Crucem said:
Yes. Because if you raise the specter of infallibility, I am going to ask you to infallibly determine which infallible magisterium is actually infallible.
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The EO have a magisterium?
Your claim is no more or less credible than theirs, after all.
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I don’t believe they make such a claim.
Every argument for it you can make, they can make.
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Please provide a citation.
 
JonNC said:
Scripture tells us to take it to the Church. Why is doing so not sola scriptura, Joe?

Jon
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Because scripture is pointing to an authority outside of itself. That makes it not the sole authority. Simple, no?
 
FathersKnowBest said:
Because scripture is pointing to an authority outside of itself. That makes it not the sole authority. Simple, no?
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Of course it does. Sola scriptura depends on the Church. From a Lutheran perspective, it is a practice of the Church. All SS does is set scripture as the final norm for doctrine. So, in that sense, scripture is “sola”, alone, the final norm. No other norm is equal to it, and instead other norms are normed by it. And in the Lutheran practice, it is the Church, not individuals, that set doctrine.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Of course it does. Sola scriptura depends on the Church. From a Lutheran perspective, it is a practice of the Church. All SS does is set scripture as the final norm for doctrine. So, in that sense, scripture is “sola”, alone, the final norm. No other norm is equal to it, and instead other norms are normed by it. And in the Lutheran practice, it is the Church, not individuals, that set doctrine.

Jon
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One of these days, Jon, they will acknowledge that they are not arguing with Baptists or non-denominational fundamentalists.
 
JonNC said:
Of course it does. Sola scriptura depends on the Church. From a Lutheran perspective, it is a practice of the Church. All SS does is set scripture as the final norm for doctrine.
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Nope. You just said it was a practice of the Church.

You will not find that practice commanded in scripture.

Therefore, the Church is the final norm, unless you can find scripture saying that it is the final norm.
 
FathersKnowBest said:
Nope. You just said it was a practice of the Church.

You will not find that practice commanded in scripture.

Therefore, the Church is the final norm, unless you can find scripture saying that it is the final norm.
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So, you are saying the Church is not commanded with a teaching authority?

Matt 28: 19-20 *Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 **teaching them *to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Jon
 
Per_Crucem said:
One of these days, Jon, they will acknowledge that they are not arguing with Baptists or non-denominational fundamentalists.
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I know, but the problem is all they ever hear is the solo scriptura scenario. Its on TV, on YouTube, and frankly, we Lutherans are by and large a rather laid-back bunch. We’re just not as vocal. So, I think their position is understandable.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Of course it does. Sola scriptura depends on the Church. From a Lutheran perspective, it is a practice of the Church. All SS does is set scripture as the final norm for doctrine. So, in that sense, scripture is “sola”, alone, the final norm. No other norm is equal to it, and instead other norms are normed by it. And in the Lutheran practice, it is the Church, not individuals, that set doctrine.

Jon
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Jon,

I have to agree with FKB. Scriptures tell us to take it to the Church - but we are missing the follow ups:
  • Where does the Scriptures say what the Church is to do?
  • Where does Scriptures say that the Church can only do what is found in Scriptures?
  • Where does the Scriptures say that they are the final norm? (Especially when it clearly tells you to go the Church as the final alternative/norm)
  • Where does Scriptures tell the Church what is Scriptures?
It just doesn’t, my friend.
 
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