Yep; the Church, singular, is vested with a teaching authority.
Matthew, Titus, 1 & 2 Timothy, Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Colossians, Ephesians and Galatians much?
Where did Jon say the Church can only do what is found in Scripture?
Is there a final norm other than God? But, in actuality, by saying that Scripture is the final norm, it doesn’t mean that Scripture is not a regular final arbiter in the case of a dispute/doctrinal issue. The Church does enforce discipline. The point is that the Church cannot contradict God’s word in doing so.
Where does the Church tell us where the Church is? If you can’t appeal to the Scriptures to tell you where the Scriptures are, why can you appeal to the Church to tell you what the Church is?
You and I disagree. What Church are we taking it to?Matthew, Titus, 1 & 2 Timothy, Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Colossians, Ephesians and Galatians much?
When Jon said this: “other norms are normed by it.”
The norm God established is the Church, Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Tradition. They don’t contradict each other.
You mean other than the Apostles and their disciples throughout history? You haven’t replied to the historicity of the Church yet
.How does Rome solve this problem? If it did, then there wouldn’t be other options. If a Catholic disagrees with his church and doesn’t accept it, does he burst into flames or something?
True, but that doesn’t mean it norms every jot and tittle. It doesn’t norm those things that it doesn’t address. No one claimed it norms the church if a dispute arises involving what color clothing Paul wore.
In your position, just the church. Since only the church can interpret Scripture and Tradition, then it’s only the church that is the norm. Sola ecclesia. Sacred Tradition doesn’t contradict Scripture. But not all supposed tradition is sacred.
You mean other than the Apostles and their disciples throughout history? You haven’t replied to the historicity of the Church yet
This is the wrong question to ask a Catholic
How any of that is particular to your communion, IDK.
I beg your pardon? Comparing a novelty called Sola Scripure to sola ecclesia? The former was founded by mere men and the latter by God Himself. Nothing to compare.
No problem to solve. Jesus started ONE Church. O-N-E.
To find the ONE, Divinely-Instutited Church, there are no other options. That’s the point.
No. If it’s something that the Church declares to be “de Fide” and a Catholic doesn’t accept it, he/she puts himself or herself outside of the Church.
No, he becomes an apostate or a heretic. You know, like Luther.
You are kidding right? How can the one true Church can solve this… well by being the one true Church. It’s a matter of authority.
No, don’t try to [yet again] modify SS.
Like Baptists, Fundamentalists and others - if I say Sola, I mean it. I didn’t say Sola Ecclesia. If I did, would you please point it out?
That has to do with doctrine, as I said.
We really are not, Jon. What you (Lutherans) are saying is that Scriptures are the final norm to which all other norms are accountable for. The final authority.
No argument. It is the Church that interprets. Under SS, the Church’s interpretation looks to scripture as the final norm. All other sources are secondary. Important! But not equal to scripture.
Hello my brother in Christ! But Jon, when and where was it decided Scripture is the final norm? Does Scripture even remotely teach such a premise? When did they universal church ever declare such a position?
We have the correct interpretation of course. When something new pops up we do as scripture says and take it to the church. That is the synod. Honestly WELS synod meetings are pretty boring since we all agree.
No, not one person the church. Honestly we have very little variation. Our Synod meetings are boring.
Okay,but within the confines of Lutherans. How do Baptists,Methodists,JW’s,Mormons,SDA,etc fit into your mold of SS? If SS were such a “Divine” norm and orthodox practice as you claim and believe, strangely other sects have different variations of SS.
They got it wrong. But it shouldn’t be so strange for you as there are many sects that claim to be the true one following the true interpretation of Tradition, the RC, EOs etc. And it doesn’t look like things are going to be patched up any time soon.
They all appealed to scripture for defense of their doctrine.
What then is our reply? We do not think that it is right to make their prevailing custom the law and rule of sound doctrine. For if custom is to avail for proof of soundness, we too, surely, may advance our prevailing custom; and if they reject this, we are surely not bound to follow theirs. Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words. (Gregory of Nyssa, Dogmatic Treatises, Book 12. On the Trinity, To Eustathius.)
None of us is claiming: Nulla Scriptura.
They got wrong? According to who? Lutherans?
And any Presbyterian, Baptist, or Methodist (Ok…I’m stretching it with that one) church can claim the same. They can excommunicate and declare someone a heretic. (Like we said to the Pope
). They just don’t do it with the blah blah we’re the one true church fanfare. We don’t claim the church is without authority. We just don’t feel the need to claim an infallible authority.No one’s modifying anything. Can you point to where anyone has said that Scripture speaks to every possible situation that could ever be addressed? Or did we say doctrine?
That is what it is in practice. Whatever is true is whatever the current magisterium happens to say (regardless of what it may have said a thousand years earlier). Only the magisterium can interpret Scripture. Only the magisterium can interpret Tradition…and whatever it says is infallible and final. That is sola ecclesia and a law unto itself.
No one is arguing otherwise. Jon has said as much numerous times. Just because you’re plugging your eyes doesn’t change that. We have all said that the Church interprets and applies Scripture, not Wall Street, the White House, or Bob next door.
You may. But conspicuously absent from anything you posted was “Pope,” “infallible,” or “church is the final authority.” And nothing there that anyone other than an anabaptist would disagree with.
Good point Jon.
I suppose it depends on one’s definition of SS. Christians belonging to the LC for example do take it to the church. Others, like my sister, believe scripture alone is the final authority; no church leadership necessary. Just her as she is moved by the HS to interpret scripture. It was that type of SS that fractured Jesus’ Mystical Body, sadly.