Following the commandments, but why the church?

[ZenFred]

QUOTE=Evan;14741115]Fred

This argument of between ‘God and them’ works only until they come into the Church. As written in 1 Cor 5:12-13
For reference:
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
"9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

So I definitely see the danger of a church which doesn’t preach obedience but cheap grace.
But how is the role of the church related to individual observance of the commandments? Or in other words I’m pretty close to a catholic perspective but why should I take more steps in that direction rather than practice on my own? How can the church help and how can I help the church?
I imagine there are a lot of good ways to answer this but I’d like you’re thoughts?

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Did you mean it to look like this:

Fred

This argument of between ‘God and them’ works only until they come into the Church. As written in 1 Cor 5:12-13

For reference:
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
"9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

So I definitely see the danger of a church which doesn’t preach obedience but cheap grace.
But how is the role of the church related to individual observance of the commandments? Or in other words I’m pretty close to a catholic perspective but why should I take more steps in that direction rather than practice on my own? How can the church help and how can I help the church?
I imagine there are a lot of good ways to answer this but I’d like you’re thoughts?

 

[po18guy]

Simply put: Once baptized, we become members (not in the club membership sense) - actual parts making up Christ’s mystical Body. One is not separate, in the corporal and spiritual sense, from others in that body or especially, from Christ Himself. 1 Corinthians 12.

Remember what Christ said about cutting a hand or foot off, or plucking an eye out? Going to heaven missing a member is far better than going to hell with all members present and accounted for. Matthew 18.

For this reason, Paul wrote of excommunication. It is not merely an exercise of power. It is not “punishment”, but rather, medicine which is intended to lead the sinner to repentance. 2 Corinthians 2, 2 Thessalonians 3.

As to the importance of Church, that is what Christ founded on Peter, (Matthew 16), giving it all, and final authority (Matthew 18:15-20) and teaching even that the authorities in heaven will know of God’s manifold magnificence through His Church (Ephesians 3:10).

The Church is worldwide, visible and authoritative in all matters of faith and morals on this earth.

 

[Billy_Buescher]

Since the Church is the Body of Christ. Do you want to belong to Christ Body? If you would do this on your own, how would you be a member of Christ Body and be able to Eat His Flesh and Drink His Blood?

My thoughts.

 

[ZenFred]

Since the Church is the Body of Christ. Do you want to belong to Christ Body? If you would do this on your own, how would you be a member of Christ Body and be able to Eat His Flesh and Drink His Blood?

My thoughts.

This reminds me of a Zen teacher who told us not to be a selfish practitioner and not to practice in isolation, but share the journey and burdens with others. You all are right though that it’s more than that since I am baptised into the church and partake in the sacraments through the church.
I think returning to the church (either my own episcopalian) or to seek out the Catholic Church is my next step. Jesus talks about being planted in good soil, I’m sure the community is part of that.

I’ll take a break from making threads thanks to everyone for their help and i am keeping the forum in my prayers.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Your argument for private observance of the commandments makes sense.

If we weren’t commanded to belong to the Church, then many of us probably wouldn’t, and the Church itself would not last.

But we are *commanded *to belong the Church.

In concert with His redemptive act, Jesus did three things that established the framework of His Church. First, He chose humans to carry out His work. He appointed Peter to be the visible head of the Church. Jesus said to Peter, “You are Rock and on this rock I will build my Church.” (Matthew 16: 18) Jesus said “build,” as in to create a structure. Jesus built His structure on specifically chosen human beings Peter and the apostles.

Second, Jesus gave Peter and the apostles the power and authority to carry out His work. “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.”(Matthew 16:19; 18:18) “Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain, they are retained.”(John 20:23)

Third, Jesus gave Peter and the apostles commands as to what that work should be. At the last supper, He commanded, “Do this in memory of Me.” (Luke 22:19) He commanded them to “Make disciples of all nations” (Matthew 28:19), and to “Go into the whole world and proclaim the Gospel to every creature.” (Mark 16:15)

[ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb1.htm]](https://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb1.htm])

Also: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” [John 13:34-35]

 

[ZenFred]

I’ve been reflecting more on the state of a lot of the churches today, especially in America.
Bonhoeffer says a practice of cheap grace encourages and neccesitates cultural assimilation. In America this is a really big issue. It’s a nation that values assimilation and conformity to a common norm, the melting pot. Groups that retain a separate cultural and ethical identity are unamerician and backwards. This is really bad, because being in a mostly Protestant church I was raised to the same standards and with the same values as the culture around us. No wonder parts of my life feel empty and I lost my faith. Catholicism was seen as too ridgid and Eastern Orthodox no one knew about. Judaism was backwards. Buddhism was a hippy thing, no need for serious contemplation or self denial. Just grow up with a good job, a pretty spouse, smiling kids and a big house. The American dream. A be a “good” person meaning be respected by the community and following its norms. No room for God’s call to obiedence and fundamental self denial.
Family’s aren’t bad though. Raising children is a mitzvot (commandment) and is an amazing blessing and opprutunity.
Tonight I’m going to talk to my wife about what our goals as a family are. I want to put saying grace/prayers at night and reading a bible story at night as priorities. Just because it only takes a few minutes and doesn’t cost any money doesn’t mean it can’t be the most important thing we do as a family. Could you all pray for this conversation with her? Thanks!

 

[jcrichton]

QUOTE=Evan;14741115]Fred

This argument of between ‘God and them’ works only until they come into the Church. As written in 1 Cor 5:12-13
For reference:
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
"9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

Hi, Fred!

…first let’s make the right division… those in the Church and those outside of the Church…

Scriptures do not mean that there are different judgments for these two groups:

23 For the wage paid by sin is death;

(Romans 6:23a)
Scriptures mean that those in the Church cannot be concerned in passing judgment on those outside of the Church… our Spiritual Walk is not dependent upon how profusely others sin or whether they resolve to make their lives free of sin or not… our Walk is in Jesus…

So I definitely see the danger of a church which doesn’t preach obedience but cheap grace.
But how is the role of the church related to individual observance of the commandments? Or in other words I’m pretty close to a catholic perspective but why should I take more steps in that direction rather than practice on my own? How can the church help and how can I help the church?
I imagine there are a lot of good ways to answer this but I’d like you’re thoughts?

Let’s see what Christ has to say:

18 So I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church. And the gates of the underworld can never hold out against it.

(St. Matthew 16:18)
…as I understand it, the term Church comes from the Greek “Ikklesia” which means assembly/community… so how does a community of one works?

…how is one of a bunch of ones or a bunch of separated bodies adhering to Christ’s: “My Community/Church?”

…and if you’re looking into the sola Scriptura for authentic validation of authority, here’s how Christ put it:

15 ‘If your brother does something wrong, go and have it out with him alone, is between your two selves. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother. 16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you: the evidence of two or three witnesses is required to sustain any charge. 17 But if he refuses to listen to these, report it to the community; and if he refuses to listen to the community, treat him like a pagan or a tax collector. 18 ‘I tell you solemnly, whatever you bind on earth shall be considered bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall be considered loosed in heaven.

(St. Matthew 18:15-18)
Now, as far as what the Church can offer you and what you can offer the Church, let’s look at what the Apostles Taught:

27 Now you together are Christ’s body; but each of you is a different part of it.

(1 Corinthians 12:12-30)

11 And to some, his gift was that they should be apostles; to some, prophets; to some, evangelists; to some, pastors and teachers; 12 so that the saints together make a unity in the work of service, building up the body of Christ. 13 In this way we are all to come to unity in our faith and in our knowledge of the Son of God, until we become the perfect Man, fully mature with the fullness of Christ himself. 14 Then we shall not be children any longer, or tossed one way and another and carried along by every wind of doctrine, at the mercy of all the tricks men play and their cleverness in practising deceit. 15 If we live by the truth and in love, we shall grow in all ways into Christ, who is the head 16 by whom the whole body is fitted and joined together, every joint adding its own strength, for each separate part to work according to its function. So the body grows until it has built itself up, in love. (Ephesians 4:11-16)
Christ did not Call men to an individual existence; though the Call to Salvation is individual, the Call to be part of Christ’s Body is not; we must become one in Christ, Who is the Head of the Church, His Body.

It is through the Church that Christ, through the Holy Spirit, makes the Fullness of Truth Known:

12 I still have many things to say to you but they would be too much for you now. 13 But when the Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth, since he will not be speaking as from himself but will say only what he has learnt; and he will tell you of the things to come. 14 He will glorify me, since all he tells you will be taken from what is mine. 15 Everything the Father has is mine; that is why I said: All he tells you will be taken from what is mine.

(St. John 16:12-16)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I’ve been reflecting more on the state of a lot of the churches today, especially in America.
Bonhoeffer says a practice of cheap grace encourages and neccesitates cultural assimilation. In America this is a really big issue. It’s a nation that values assimilation and conformity to a common norm, the melting pot. Groups that retain a separate cultural and ethical identity are unamerician and backwards. This is really bad, because being in a mostly Protestant church I was raised to the same standards and with the same values as the culture around us. No wonder parts of my life feel empty and I lost my faith. Catholicism was seen as too ridgid and Eastern Orthodox no one knew about. Judaism was backwards. Buddhism was a hippy thing, no need for serious contemplation or self denial. Just grow up with a good job, a pretty spouse, smiling kids and a big house. The American dream. A be a “good” person meaning be respected by the community and following its norms. No room for God’s call to obiedence and fundamental self denial.
Family’s aren’t bad though. Raising children is a mitzvot (commandment) and is an amazing blessing and opprutunity.
Tonight I’m going to talk to my wife about what our goals as a family are. I want to put saying grace/prayers at night and reading a bible story at night as priorities. Just because it only takes a few minutes and doesn’t cost any money doesn’t mean it can’t be the most important thing we do as a family. Could you all pray for this conversation with her? Thanks!

Hi, Fred!

I’ll keep you in my prayers!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Dorothy]

Fred,

<<Could you all pray for this conversation with her? Thanks!>>

Prayers for you and your family!

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[steve_b]

QUOTE=Evan;14741115]Fred

This argument of between ‘God and them’ works only until they come into the Church. As written in 1 Cor 5:12-13

For some footnotes and links to words within that passage

1 Cor 5:
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men;d] 10 not at all meaning the immorale] of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But rather I wrotef] to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immoralityg] or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber—not even to eat with such a one. 12 What business is it of mine to judge κρίνειν; ] those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge κρίνετε; ] those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.

We often hear “you can’t judge” or “thou shalt not judge”. Obviously people take that phrase too literally, given the passage you quote.

We absolutely have to judge people in order to assess who to associate with and who not to.

Zen:

So I definitely see the danger of a church which doesn’t preach obedience but cheap grace.
But how is the role of the church related to individual observance of the commandments? Or in other words I’m pretty close to a catholic perspective but why should I take more steps in that direction rather than practice on my own? How can the church help and how can I help the church?
I imagine there are a lot of good ways to answer this but I’d like you’re thoughts?

Are you asking, why be Catholic?