Food Price Riots Popping Up Around The World

[Ridgerunner]

Since I’m getting estimates for the cost to repair a mile of private road that was washed out, a pond that overflowed and eroded the dam, and the topsoil stripped off the pasture, I’d say “chock full of moving water” is an understatement.

Tell me about it! Three water gaps, beaucoup hill roads, changed creek courses. Prior ice storm detritus piled ten feet high against bottomland trees. Need to look into that fescue, Vern, at least it keeps the topsoil on. It does do that.

 

[Abitreckless]

Good insulation works wonders.

It’s not enough where I live. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

 

[drpmjhess]

Technology is rapidly advancing in this field so that almost anything organic will be able to be used for biofuels (both methanol and ethanol). What is extremely promising is the use of cellulose material.Imagine this scenario: A field of corn is harvested. The kernel is extracted and send for processing as food. The stalk, husk, and cob is used at material for biofuels.
Not only will we have food from the kernal, but biofuel from the waste products. The same can be said for any other agricultural product where part of the plant is discarded. The same could be used for waste from lumber, leaf collection, and landfills. .

The drawback is the strip-mining" of fields, so that there is no detritus left behind to fertilize the field for the next year’s crop. Without petro-based fertilizers, what will keep the fields productive year after year, if we strip every ounce of biomass off it?

P.

 

[peregrinus_WA]

The drawback is the strip-mining" of fields, so that there is no detritus left behind to fertilize the field for the next year’s crop. Without petro-based fertilizers, what will keep the fields productive year after year, if we strip every ounce of biomass off it?

P.

That could be true. However, even if you do not completely “strip mine” fields, there are plenty of other biomass resources other than food based sources.

One thing I have mentioned in the past is switchgrass. It can grow in less desirable soil that would not be usable for crops. It is self seeding and does not need fertilizer to survive. You can cut it down and it will grow back. It also yields more biofuel than the equivalent amount of corn.

Another crop that could be used if it were ever legalize is industrial hemp. Not only could it be used to produce biofuels, it can also be used for plastics, clothing, and food.

Finally, there has been research into using algae as a source of biomass. It has shown promise in not only ethanol and methanol, but butanol which can be used in normal gasoline engines with no modifications. Here is the quote I used in another thread on this:

peregrinus_WA:

One item of not, I saw this on a link from the above link

The United States Department of Energy estimates that if algae fuel replaced all the petroleum fuel in the United States, it would require 15,000 square miles (38,849 square kilometers), which is a few thousand square miles larger than Maryland, or 1.3 Belgiums.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel: A Promising Oil Alternative: Algae Energy - washingtonpost.com

Essentially, what I am saying is there is so much biomass that can be obtained, food stock is not even needed.

People have such a myopic view of things that they do not see the whole picture.

 

[Al_Masetti]

That could be true. However, even if you do not completely “strip mine” fields, there are plenty of other biomass resources other than food based sources.

One thing I have mentioned in the past is switchgrass. It can grow in less desirable soil that would not be usable for crops. It is self seeding and does not need fertilizer to survive. You can cut it down and it will grow back. It also yields more biofuel than the equivalent amount of corn.

Another crop that could be used if it were ever legalize is industrial hemp. Not only could it be used to produce biofuels, it can also be used for plastics, clothing, and food.

Finally, there has been research into using algae as a source of biomass. It has shown promise in not only ethanol and methanol, but butanol which can be used in normal gasoline engines with no modifications. Here is the quote I used in another thread on this:
Essentially, what I am saying is there is so much biomass that can be obtained, food stock is not even needed.

People have such a myopic view of things that they do not see the whole picture.

Absolutely right. And besides switchgrass and bureaucracy, there is one other representative of “eternal life on earth”: bamboo. It grows forever and very fast. Spreads like wildfire. Harvest it over and over and over …

uch:

And maybe chapparal / tumbleweed out in California.

AND … are you ready for this … there actually was an article in Aviation Week & Space Technology about what you said … algae … to be harvested and turned into jet fuel. Imagine … pond scum with a useful end product.

Lots of junk vegetation out there.

Kudzu.

And that stuff that grows in ponds so fast, that farmers have to import special Chinese Amur fish to eat it to keep the ponds from clogging.

 

[peregrinus_WA]

Absolutely right. And besides switchgrass and bureaucracy, there is one other representative of “eternal life on earth”: bamboo. It grows forever and very fast. Spreads like wildfire. Harvest it over and over and over …

uch:

And maybe chapparal / tumbleweed out in California.

AND … are you ready for this … there actually was an article in Aviation Week & Space Technology about what you said … algae … to be harvested and turned into jet fuel. Imagine … pond scum with a useful end product.

Lots of junk vegetation out there.

Kudzu.

And that stuff that grows in ponds so fast, that farmers have to import special Chinese Amur fish to eat it to keep the ponds from clogging.

Certain bamboos growth can be measured in feet/day.

As for algae, here is a wiki link on Algae fuel. I also Yahoo’ed Algae fuel and it looks like it will be here sooner than later. Almost every (maybe all) types of biofuel can be made out of algea. I am especially interested in biobutanol and biodiesel. And guess what, companies are named.

I cannot remember if Robert Zubrin mentioned algae in his book Energy Victory.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Tell me about it! Three water gaps, beaucoup hill roads, changed creek courses. Prior ice storm detritus piled ten feet high against bottomland trees. Need to look into that fescue, Vern, at least it keeps the topsoil on. It does do that.

Nothing would have kept the topsoil on in that torrent – boulders the size of a car were ripped out of the dam and driven hundreds of yards across the pasture.

 

[Doug50]

arrrg. I’ll put the math to this again. The world currently uses 86 miillion barrels of oil per day (1000 bbls/second). That’s enough oil to fill 5600 Olympic pools of oil every day or enough to fill 2,044,000 Olympic pools in one year. By footage, an Olympic pool is Depth 6.5 x width 82 x lenght 164. 164 feet time 2,044,000Olympic pools stretched end to end would make a single pool 63,488 miles long.

That’s the daunting problem of trying to replace that volume with biomass. I was talk with some guys just this morning who also farm and we estimated fertalizer is costing 50 cents per pound. One of them hasn’t used fertalizer in the past 3 years due to costs. His yields are down but without the fertalizer (name removed by moderator)ut cost he figures his net return on investments are better. If more farmers take this approach global crop yeilds will fall.

Leaving (name removed by moderator)ut cost out. what you guys who argue for biofuels aren’t taking into consideration, I believe, is EROEI (energy return on energy invested). That is, given the totoal energy (name removed by moderator)ut what is the net energy out put for the biofuel?

If there is 7-10 calories of petroleum for every 1 calorie of food consumed in this country, and since biofuel production is from the same caloric source as our food, who does this ratio affect biofuel production?

the following page gives etimates of EROEI for different sources. (And watch how AL will not open and read this link.)
eroei.com/eroei/evaluations/net-energy-list/
[EDITOR’S NOTE: The authors of the report use the term EROI which is Energy Return On Investment - a shorter but identical concept to EROEI. Any figure that is less than 1.0 shows a net “loss” of energy. Break even for EROEI is 1.0. The figure 0.8, for example, would mean a net energy loss of 20%. That is, it would take 20% MORE energy to acquire (or produce) the energy than you would get by using it…NOT a good deal. Look at 1940’s Oil and gas - it shows an EROEI of greater than 100 for discoveries, which means that at the well head (where the oil comes out of the ground), the energy returned by the oil was more than 100 TIMES the energy it took to extract it…a VERY GOOD deal!]

If the ERORI for bio fuel is 1 to 1 then all the biofuel produced is a breakeven energy ratio to the farmer. There is no net positive to go into consumer transportation. Even if you could produce all your biofuels using nothing but electrical (name removed by moderator)ut you still have to generate the electricity from some other source. For a 1 to 1 the BTU electical (name removed by moderator)ut must equal the biofuel output. BUT (and ignoring food production) that is still more efficient then hydrogen because hydrogen will always be a net loss on EROEI.

Because of food and the damaging affects of stripping hummus’ biomass for fuel I believe the future will have to be in hydrogen but there will have to be a cheap renewable way to produce it. That way doesn’t exist yet.

 

[drpmjhess]

arrrg. I’ll put the math to this again. The world currently uses 86 miillion barrels of oil per day (1000 bbls/second). That’s enough oil to fill 5600 Olympic pools of oil every day or enough to fill 2,044,000 Olympic pools in one year. By footage, an Olympic pool is Depth 6.5 x width 82 x lenght 164. 164 feet time 2,044,000Olympic pools stretched end to end would make a single pool 63,488 miles long.

Doug, that was my point about stripmining biomass without replenishing it. The problematic assumption of the “cornucopians” is that we can easily support the energy needs of 6.6 billion humans simply by stepping sideways from a fuel source that was stored up over hundreds of millions of years – which we have used up in two centuries – and expect the annual (name removed by moderator)ut of solar energy somehow to provide an equivalent of this stored energy. Does that seem an extraordinary expectation to you?

Petrus

 

[Doug50]

Doug, that was my point about stripmining biomass without replenishing it. The problematic assumption of the “cornucopians” is that we can easily support the energy needs of 6.6 billion humans simply by stepping sideways from a fuel source that was stored up over hundreds of millions of years – which we have used up in two centuries – and expect the annual (name removed by moderator)ut of solar energy somehow to provide an equivalent of this stored energy. Does that seem an extraordinary expectation to you?

Petrus

Yea it does. I can visualize the problem but seeming most people cannot or don’t want to.

It’s the same kind of thinking where a person calls into a radio talk show about cars (I’m thinking Wheels with Ed Wallace) knowing cars can run on an electric battery system and photovoltaics will generate electricity. But they mistakenly hypothesis that it could be possible to make a car body with PVs to charge the battery. Will that work to charge the battery? Yea…but the PVs will not generate anywhere near the watts need to keep the car running at the same time. Nor if the car set most of the day in a parking lot while the ower works at his/her job.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Message for Ridgerunner:

I received your last message, but cannot reply. Your box is full.

 

[drpmjhess]

Yea it does. I can visualize the problem but seeming most people cannot or don’t want to.

Doug, people don’t want to see the problem, because the implications for our high-flying lifestyle of not having a ready supply of something to replace the lost petroleum are truly terrifying. I was numb when I first stated learning about the coming end of affordable oil, and then I went into denial: this can’t be true; God loves humanity too much to allow us to run out of cheap and ready energy. Then I went through bargaining: if we make these changes to our lifestyle, can we keep a well-fed society of 7+ billion people? Then I got moved on to anger: when the Global 2,000 report came out, and when people in the 1970s told us what would likely happen in the 21st century, why on earth did we ignore them and initiate the SUV and suburban sprawl crazes?

I wouldn’t say I’ve yet come to acceptance in the sense of lying down before the inevitable – I’m too much of a teacher and activist simply to give up – but I have come to accept that no generation after us will ever live as affluently, comfortably, and effortlessly as we have. And never again (even if oleaginous algae works) will we be able to fly to Europe cheaply every three years to visit my wife’s family.

Petrus

 

[ricmat]

Doug, people don’t want to see the problem, because the implications for our high-flying lifestyle of not having a ready supply of something to replace the lost petroleum are truly terrifying. I was numb when I first stated learning about the coming end of affordable oil, and then I went into denial:

Wow. Me too! But that was back in 1971. And adjusted for inflation oil (and minus price increases of the last few weeks), oil is cheaper than it was back in those days.

…this can’t be true; God loves humanity too much to allow us to run out of cheap and ready energy.

Come on Petrus. Did you really think that? I find that hard to believe.

Then I went through bargaining: if we make these changes to our lifestyle, can we keep a well-fed society of 7+ billion people? Then I got moved on to anger: when the Global 2,000 report came out, and when people in the 1970s told us what would likely happen in the 21st century, why on earth did we ignore them and initiate the SUV and suburban sprawl crazes?

I’ll agree with you that SUVs are just about the worst idea to come along for many years. And suburban sprawl was not “initiated” in the sense that people got together and said “Let’s have urban sprawl”. It was a side effect of having cheap energy.

I wouldn’t say I’ve yet come to acceptance in the sense of lying down before the inevitable – I’m too much of a teacher and activist simply to give up – but I have come to accept that no generation after us will ever live as affluently, comfortably, and effortlessly as we have. And never again (even if oleaginous algae works) will we be able to fly to Europe cheaply every three years to visit my wife’s family.
Petrus

It is possible that our affluence has peaked. But the free market has come through in the past, and it may come through again. A few years from now we may look back and wonder how we fell for the overpopulation / run-out-of-energy scam. And be sorry that we furthered the ends of the anti-life movements by marching in their parades (I dropped out of that in the 80’s).

Petrus - In terms of visiting your wife’s family - perhaps Al Gore would give you a lift in his Learjet. I also understand that he has some carbon credits he’d like to sell you.

 

[drpmjhess]

Wow. Me too! But that was back in 1971. And adjusted for inflation oil (and minus price increases of the last few weeks), oil is cheaper than it was back in those days.

I don’t believe that is correct. Doug?

 

[ricmat]

I don’t believe that is correct. Doug?

There’s a chart on this page:

inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation_Rate/Historical_Oil_Prices_Table.asp

1975 Price = $47.63
2005 Price = $53.77

The prices do rise to $65 in 2007. And as I said, lately the price has been skyrocketing. But I don’t believe that it’s a basic issue with “running out of oil”.

 

[Ridgerunner]

In 1800, people would never have dreamed that, within 50 years, people would be tearing along a pair of iron rails at upwards of 50 miles per hour and carrying unimaginable tonnage of freight, practically overnight for hundreds of miles.

In 1880, people would never have dreamed that within 35 years, people would be traveling around in horseless carriages and flying through the air.

In 1938, people would never have dreamed that you could “cure” leprosy, tuberculosis, “trench fever” and many assorted illnesses by pushing fluids into a person’s arm with a needle or simply giving him a series of pills.

In 1960, people would never have dreamed that within 20 years, people would be making immense calculations with electronic equipment that would sit on a desktop. Nor would they have dreamed that within 20 more years there would be electronic implants that would make prosthetic devices work. Nor would the people in 1960 have ever supposed it would be routine to have “face to face” meetings among people scattered all over the world, by electronic means.

Now, we’re traveling about right now using what really amounts to 1910 technology; improved of course, but still the same basic thing. Gasoline-driven pistons converting up and down motion to rotary motion, each individual driving his own. This hasn’t changed because there was little reason to change it. It was still the cheapest and easiest way to go.

Maybe it’s no longer so. Maybe there aren’t plenty more sources of energy you can just suck up out of the ground. But the fact is that humanity has simply not been presented with the compelling need to find other ways of dealing with travel, and has ignored many ways of dealing with heating homes notwithstanding that they’re right there to do and are not terribly expensive.

It’s very hard for me to believe human beings can’t get past the imminent sound of the straw sucking the last bit of the “oil soda”. We have done stranger things, by far.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Certain bamboos growth can be measured in feet/day.

As for algae, here is a wiki link on Algae fuel. I also Yahoo’ed Algae fuel and it looks like it will be here sooner than later. Almost every (maybe all) types of biofuel can be made out of algea. I am especially interested in biobutanol and biodiesel. And guess what, companies are named.

I cannot remember if Robert Zubrin mentioned algae in his book Energy Victory.

Yup. Zubrin mentions algae on page 153.

Also: mesquite, water hyacinth, cattail, kelp, rice bran, sawdust, black liquor (from the paper industry) … all on p. 153

On page 152, Zubrin mentions weeds, wild jungle undergrowth [did he commit an enviro-sin by not using the word “rainforest”?], grasses, trees, fallen leaves and branches, water lilies, swamp and river plants [there he goes again, using “swamp” instead of “wetland”], seaweed, algae, eucalyptus, cottonwood, and switch grass.

On page 150, Zubrin mentions cassava, cellulosic biomass, stranded natural gas, sweet potatoes, yams, nipa palm.

I read the pages backwards. Lots of candidates. He lumps all alcohol potential crops together.

Some things grow better in some places than others. Lots of geographic variability.

 

[peregrinus_WA]

Yup. Zubrin mentions algae on page 153.

Also: mesquite, water hyacinth, cattail, kelp, rice bran, sawdust, black liquor (from the paper industry) … all on p. 153

On page 152, Zubrin mentions weeds, wild jungle undergrowth [did he commit an enviro-sin by not using the word “rainforest”?], grasses, trees, fallen leaves and branches, water lilies, swamp and river plants [there he goes again, using “swamp” instead of “wetland”], seaweed, algae, eucalyptus, cottonwood, and switch grass.

On page 150, Zubrin mentions cassava, cellulosic biomass, stranded natural gas, sweet potatoes, yams, nipa palm.

Lots of candidates.

It is almost endless on the sources.

 

[Al_Masetti]

In 1800, people would never have dreamed that, within 50 years, people would be tearing along a pair of iron rails at upwards of 50 miles per hour and carrying unimaginable tonnage of freight, practically overnight for hundreds of miles.

In 1880, people would never have dreamed that within 35 years, people would be traveling around in horseless carriages and flying through the air.

In 1938, people would never have dreamed that you could “cure” leprosy, tuberculosis, “trench fever” and many assorted illnesses by pushing fluids into a person’s arm with a needle or simply giving him a series of pills.

In 1960, people would never have dreamed that within 20 years, people would be making immense calculations with electronic equipment that would sit on a desktop. Nor would they have dreamed that within 20 more years there would be electronic implants that would make prosthetic devices work. Nor would the people in 1960 have ever supposed it would be routine to have “face to face” meetings among people scattered all over the world, by electronic means.

Now, we’re traveling about right now using what really amounts to 1910 technology; improved of course, but still the same basic thing. Gasoline-driven pistons converting up and down motion to rotary motion, each individual driving his own. This hasn’t changed because there was little reason to change it. It was still the cheapest and easiest way to go.

Maybe it’s no longer so. Maybe there aren’t plenty more sources of energy you can just suck up out of the ground. But the fact is that humanity has simply not been presented with the compelling need to find other ways of dealing with travel, and has ignored many ways of dealing with heating homes notwithstanding that they’re right there to do and are not terribly expensive.

It’s very hard for me to believe human beings can’t get past the imminent sound of the straw sucking the last bit of the “oil soda”. We have done stranger things, by far.

A hundred years ago, railroads were doing 100 mph. And with the exceptions of the super trains in France, Japan, Germany (and Spain?), most trains today don’t go much faster than 100 mph.

So, you’re right about the compelling need for speed and high(er) technology.

Nuclear power came about in 1940. We’ve been stalled in that area. Fusion research has slowed dramatically.

We need to get more advanced technology up and running to get this energy independence back where it belongs.

Once upon a time, nuclear power was touted as making electricity too cheap to even bother metering and billing. Well, “they”, the touts, didn’t count on environmentalists demanding that the pipe hanger designs be changed constantly. Or that our schools would stop teaching science and start teaching indoctrination.

End of rant. thankyouandhaveaniceday.

 

[Ridgerunner]

A hundred years ago, railroads were doing 100 mph. And with the exceptions of the super trains in France, Japan, Germany (and Spain?), most trains today don’t go much faster than 100 mph.

So, you’re right about the compelling need for speed and high(er) technology.

Nuclear power came about in 1940. We’ve been stalled in that area. Fusion research has slowed dramatically.

We need to get more advanced technology up and running to get this energy independence back where it belongs.

Once upon a time, nuclear power was touted as making electricity too cheap to even bother metering and billing. Well, “they”, the touts, didn’t count on environmentalists demanding that the pipe hanger designs be changed constantly. Or that our schools would stop teaching science and start teaching indoctrination.

End of rant. thankyouandhaveaniceday.

I, for one, kind of appreciated the rant. Some of this doomsday stuff reminds me of the old mythical story about the exceptionally civilized people of Alexandria. One day a horde of savages laid siege to the city. Day after day after day, the savages remained, threatening every manner of death to the citizens. Doom threatened, and the residents could practically feel the blades of their cimitars on their throats. Then one day, inexplicably, the savages left. Just went away. The people of the city were disappinted. Massacre would have been better than nothing.

Sometimes it really does seem some of the prognosticators of doom actively want it. Perhaps, to some, it would be better than nothing.