Foot washing on Holy Thursday

[Spirithound]

Excuse me…but part of the reason for being Catholic is that I don’t have to try and sort through all this…regaramole…I’m not a lawyer for crying out loud. I have the Church to follow. Here in the US…the easiest thing to do is pull up the USCCB and see what they say about it. And they say the same thing that was quoted. They go to the intent or significance of the action. So…the USCCB allows men/women…my diocese does…and my parish does. That is enough for me. I have no desire to go making a stink based off your interpretation…I don’t know you…I do know and trust the USCCB.

You know, you’re contradicting your own purpose by your repeated postings. If you don’t want to try to sort through all this rubrical rigmarole, then don’t. But you can’t expect those of us who know more about the rubrics than you to simply accept a judgement of the USCCB, your bishop, and your pastor that is not in their purview to make.

 

[TheMc]

TheMc:

It is not “uncharitable” not to wash women’s feet, it is simply obedient.** If the women have a problem with that, they should take a good long look at their supposed “active participation”.**

Wow…this is one of the least charitable things I’ve seen on this board…

I apologize for my harsh tone. Please accept my forgiveness.

The key thing here that it seems many are missing is that if you don’t understand why something is the way it is, you shouldn’t ignore it, but simply obey it, because it has come from God, through his Church.

One reason I think it might say “men” (vir) is actually quite similar to why altar boys are given the first preference.

The Story behind Altar boys:
Originally, only clerics served at the altar
Due to lack of clerics, the church allows boys (who could at least theoretically be clerics) to “fill in”.

The possible story behind the Washing of (Men’s) Feet:
Jesus washed the feet of 12 bishops
Due to lack of bishops, the church allows men (who could at least theoretically be bishops) to “fill in”.

This seems to explain it, in my mind, at least. It doesn’t prove it, but it may at least give people some insight.

Another key thing to remember. Ladies, just because the church has asked that the priest not wash your feet, it is not degrading to you, just as the fact that you can’t be ordained isn’t degrading to you.

Excuse me…but part of the reason for being Catholic is that I don’t have to try and sort through all this…regaramole…I’m not a lawyer for crying out loud. I have the Church to follow. Here in the US…the easiest thing to do is pull up the USCCB and see what they say about it. And they say the same thing that was quoted. They go to the intent or significance of the action. So…the USCCB allows men/women…my diocese does…and my parish does. That is enough for me. I have no desire to go making a stink based off your interpretation…I don’t know you…I do know and trust the USCCB.

I’m sorry if I sound harsh, but I don’t like to fluff things up. I would rather tell it how it is. [edited]
This is no more of an interpretation than there is different “interpretations” about if the state government or the federal government has more authority. Just as the federal government has power over the states, Rome has complete control of the USCCB.

Rome has said that only males are to have their feet washed, and that is how it is, unless the USCCB gets permission from Rome otherwise.

miniquedoes:

The USCCB have allowed both genders to participate so to argue about it doesn’t solve anything.

I would like to point out that the USCCB has not allowed both gender’s feet to be washed. They simply can’t, because they don’t have the authority. They gave the impression of allowing it, but in reality, they did not, because they can’t, on their own power.

 

[InspiritCarol]

You know, you’re contradicting your own purpose by your repeated postings. If you don’t want to try to sort through all this rubrical rigmarole, then don’t. But you can’t expect those of us who know more about the rubrics than you to simply accept a judgement of the USCCB, your bishop, and your pastor that is not in their purview to make.

This is a harsh personal attack and you have missed her point.

Good job if you’re trying to drive people away from our faith.

She makes a valid point.

Sure: you know the rubrics better than the USCCB, countless Bishops and priests; but not everyone does. So how are we to follow you, Spirithound, TheMc, whatever anonymous avatar that claims superiority to the bishops? What on earth are you trying to say about our faith? What, exactly, are you asking us to do? I *want *to follow the rubrics but more importantly, I want to follow God. Do you really think God will hold it against me if I am obedient to my Bishop?

Are we allowed to talk about what God wants here because I’m detecting a double standard: we can’t interpret what God wants because that is beyond our limited lay ability; yet somehow we’re to be omniscient when it comes to understanding the intent of rubrics.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

You know, you’re contradicting your own purpose by your repeated postings. If you don’t want to try to sort through all this rubrical rigmarole, then don’t. But you can’t expect those of us who know more about the rubrics than you to simply accept a judgement of the USCCB, your bishop, and your pastor that is not in their purview to make.

If you know (or think you do) more…great…as long as you do it in charity. Which quite frankly can be lacking on this board. I’m not saying you…as I don’t know your postings very much…but in general.

But don’t expect me to listen to everyone who states that they know more about the rubics then anyone else here and they know more then the USCCB.

Bottom line…I’ve been asked to have my feet washed on Holy Thursday and if the USCCB, my bishop, and my priest say its ok…well that means more to me then what someone here posts. Kind of like 4 kings vs a pair of twos…

 

[JM3]

CONSTITUTION
ON THE SACRED LITURGY
SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY
HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON DECEMBER 4, 1963

A) General norms

1. 1. Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine, on the bishop.
2. In virtue of power conceded by the law, the regulation of the liturgy within certain defined limits belongs also to various kinds of competent territorial bodies of bishops legitimately established.
3. Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

 

[miniquedoes]

I would like to point out that the USCCB has not allowed both gender’s feet to be washed. They simply can’t, because they don’t have the authority. They gave the impression of allowing it, but in reality, they did not, because they can’t, on their own power.

By “allow” I meant they do not put a stop to it.

 

[TheMc]

Good job if you’re trying to drive people away from our faith.

May I point out that if these priests and “liturgists” would obey the church, we wouldn’t have to have this discussion in the first place! They are the ones hurting the church.

Sure: you know the rubrics better than the USCCB, countless Bishops and priests; but not everyone does. So how are we to follow you, Spirithound, TheMc, whatever anonymous avatar that claims superiority to the bishops?

I think I can be fairly sure Spirithound and BenedictGal agree with me on this, so I’ll use “we”:
We are not saying that we are superior to the bishops. Please do not read more than we wrote. We are only saying that they are simply not doing the right thing all the time, especially with regards to the church’s rubrics. All catholics, laymen, priests, even bishops have a duty (not just a right, but a duty) to ensure that the liturgy is celebrated with reverence, according to the books. That is all we are doing.

Redemptionis Sacramentum183. In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power … that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.

What on earth are you trying to say about our faith? What, exactly, are you asking us to do? **I *want ***to follow the rubrics but more importantly, I want to follow God.

You seem to imply that the rubrics are inhibiting you from following God. They are there for our own good, and if nothing else, to serve as an exercise of obedience.

Are we allowed to talk about what God wants here because I’m detecting a double standard: we can’t interpret what God wants because that is beyond our limited lay ability; yet somehow we’re to be omniscient when it comes to understanding the intent of rubrics.

There is no need to understand the “intent of the rubrics.”
All that is actually required of us is to obey them.

 

[InspiritCarol]

Another key thing to remember. Ladies, just because the church has asked that the priest not wash your feet, it is not degrading to you, just as the fact that you can’t be ordained isn’t degrading to you.

Agreed; but you and your finger pointing and harsh attitude are, in fact, VERY degrading to us.

What part of: “women aren’t asking for this” don’t you understand?

This is coming from Priests. Last time I checked… nope… NOT women.

Having a priest wash my foot never remotely made me consider I needed ordination.

I think it’s great that you are being the rubrics police. Thank you, but please stop dumping this on us “ladies” that the priests have chosen to take these actions. I don’t know the stats but in my experience, most Liturgical Directors are also NOT women.

I’ve heard this exact same line of reasoning from a young college aged man as he was justifying his militant defense of Planned Parenthood. He said abortion is “what women want”. I honestly wish you boys would stop telling us what we think and what we want.

 

[TheMc]

But don’t expect me to listen to everyone who states that they know more about the rubics then anyone else here and they know more then the USCCB.

Bottom line…I’ve been asked to have my feet washed on Holy Thursday and if the USCCB, my bishop, and my priest say its ok…well that means more to me then what someone here posts.

It’s not that we know more about them, it’s that we actually obey them.

They (the USCCB) even admit that the missal says “men only”.
They know what the rules are, but they simply don’t want to obey them.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I apologize for my harsh tone. Please accept my forgiveness.

One reason I think it might say “men” (vir) is actually quite similar to why altar boys are given the first preference.

The Story behind Altar boys:
Originally, only clerics served at the altar
Due to lack of clerics, the church allows boys (who could at least theoretically be clerics) to “fill in”.
​

Apology accepted…it was really over the “active participation” remark. I just don’t see men stepping up…someone’s gotta do some of these things.

You bring up a good point about Altar boys/vs. Altar girls. It’s my understanding that the Church allows both…in fact the Pope himself acknowledged both and praised them for their role in the Church.

But there are people on this board who would say…“that’s not allowed…that’s not in the rubics…” It can only be Altar boys…and they will act very authoritativly…like they know all. So you see how obeying peoples interpretation here can be a dangerous thing. Like InspiritCarol said…I don’t think God is going to be mad at us for following our Bishops…in fact…that is what we are supposed to do. Following this persons interpretation…and that person who thinks they know the rubics or Bible…well that’s more like the faith I left to come back home…

Now as to the OP’s point about communal washing of the feet…I really don’t know what to say about that…​

 

[InspiritCarol]

CONSTITUTION
ON THE SACRED LITURGY
SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY
HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON DECEMBER 4, 1963

A) General norms

1. 1. Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine, on the bishop.
2. In virtue of power conceded by the law, the regulation of the liturgy within certain defined limits belongs also to various kinds of competent territorial bodies of bishops legitimately established.

Hmm… like the USCCB? Oh wait, they’re wrong now… Shoot.

1. Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.

Does anyone here remotely disagree with this?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

May I point out that if these priests and “liturgists” would obey the church, we wouldn’t have to have this discussion in the first place! They are the ones hurting the church.

.

Wait a minute… My priest is obeying our Bishop. When he was ordained he promised obedience to the Bishop. So if priests are in obedience to their Bishops…then it really lays at the Bishops feet…don’t you think?

 

[InspiritCarol]

Now as to the OP’s point about communal washing of the feet…I really don’t know what to say about that…

Nah. That’s just weird.

 

[TheMc]

But there are people on this board who would say…“that’s not allowed…that’s not in the rubics…” It can only be Altar boys…and they will act very authoritativly…like they know all. So you see how obeying peoples interpretation here can be a dangerous thing. Like InspiritCarol said…I don’t think God is going to be mad at us for following our Bishops…in fact…that is what we are supposed to do. Following this persons interpretation…and that person who thinks they know the rubics or Bible…well that’s more like the faith I left to come back home…

While altar servers of both genders are allowed, maintaining altar boys are “a laudable custom”.

1. It is altogether laudable to maintain the noble custom by which boys…provide service of the altar…

Another thing. Both the bishop and/or the pastor may ban female servers from his diocese. That itself is more evidence that altar boys are more preferred by the church.

No one, as far as I know, has argued that altar girls are not allowed (unless they are referring to a parish/diocese where they legitimately aren’t allowed).

Re:Obeying our bishops
Bishops are sometimes wrong. That is why the church has asked that we talk to them, or to Rome if that is the case, that way, we can obey our bishops and the Pope.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

While altar servers of both genders are allowed, maintaining altar boys are “a laudable custom”.

1. It is altogether laudable to maintain the noble custom by which boys…provide service of the altar…

Another thing. Both the bishop and/or the pastor may ban female servers from his diocese. That itself is more evidence that altar boys are more preferred by the church.

No one, as far as I know, has argued that altar girls are not allowed (unless they are referring to a parish/diocese where they legitimately aren’t allowed).

Re:Obeying our bishops
Bishops are sometimes wrong. That is why the church has asked that we talk to them, or to Rome if that is the case, that way, we can obey our bishops and the Pope.

Then you haven’t spent much time in the trad forumn…or even in the Catholic news section…when the Pope had an audience of altar servers…there were plenty of people who said they should not be allowed.

Ah…but while you may believe the Bishops to be wrong…I do not…nor do I see the need to go wading into the details. And forgive me if I don’t go to my Bishop and say…so and so on CAF says it should be this way. I myself don’t see a need to.

But if it bothers you or the other 2 so much…why don’t you write a letter to the USSCB?

 

[TheMc]

Wait a minute… My priest is obeying our Bishop. When he was ordained he promised obedience to the Bishop.

Did the bishop say he had to wash everyone’s feet, or did he give him the option to?

So if priests are in obedience to their Bishops…then it really lays at the Bishops feet…don’t you think?

Yes, it does. But if the bishop is wrong, the church has asked everyone, even priests, to alert the Vatican. That is why there is such a serious duty upon the bishop to do the right thing, which allowing priests to wash women’s feet is not.

Redemptionis Sacramentum183. In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power … that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.

1. Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the … Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.

 

[TheMc]

Then you haven’t spent much time in the trad forumn…or even in the Catholic news section…when the Pope had an audience of altar servers…there were plenty of people who said they should not be allowed.

Ohhh… people saying they shouldn’t be allowed. I thought you meant people saying they currently are not allowed.

The people are not arguing about the interpretation of current rules, but the possibility of changing the rules.

Ah…but while you may believe the Bishops to be wrong…I do not…nor do I see the need to go wading into the details. And forgive me if I don’t go to my Bishop and say…so and so on CAF says it should be this way. I myself don’t see a need to.

But if it bothers you or the other 2 so much…why don’t you write a letter to the USSCB?

It’s not about what I or other think, it’s about what the church wants.
Ask me about any of my statements on CAF saying “it should be this way”, and nearly every time, I can give you a church document backing my statement up.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Ohhh… people saying they shouldn’t be allowed. I thought you meant people saying they currently are not allowed.

The people are not arguing about the interpretation of current rules, but the possibility of changing the rules.

It’s not about what I or other think, it’s about what the church wants.
Ask me about any of my statements on CAF saying “it should be this way”, and nearly every time, I can give you a church document backing my statement up.

oh…people argue about the interpretation of the current rules alright…

I think we are at a standstill…I will follow the Church through my Priests, Bishop, and USSCB. For me…there is nothing else to be done.

If you feel that is what the Church wants…then maybe you should address it with them.

Have a good night

 

[Indyann]

Because, the US Bishop’s statement is out there for the whole world to see, I would like to know how many of you have written to Rome?

What was their response?

Whether your particular parish washes only men’s feet or not, you are just as obliged as anyone one else to contact the Holy See on this matter.

 

[InspiritCarol]

catholicnewsagency.com/news/archbishop_omalley_to_wash_womens_feet_holy_thursday/

“O’Malley to wash women’s feet in rite
Consults Vatican, changes policy”
From the Boston Globe

boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/03/19/omalley_to_wash_womens_feet_in_rite/

I find it both annoying and telling that the Vatican has not issued any kind of formal statement about this. Judging by the amount of discourse out there, they must be aware there is confusion. Annoying because we waste our time discussing what is beyond us anyway, and telling because if it was a big deal, they most certainly would have corrected matters before now.

catholic-forum.com/forums/printthread.php?t=73&pp=25&page=2

Meh.

Peace all & if I have offended anyone (which I surely have), I apologize. My ability to be succinct is limited… but evolving.