Foot Washing Question

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You have yet to provide us any official statement from the Archdiocese. Perhaps, for all we know, The Cardinal Archbishop may not be aware of certain practices employed in his diocese. That happens.
I don’t have an official statement. I have the FAQ from the archdioscean website and a photo of the Cardinal washing a woman’s foot.

As I suggested, if you don’t think that he understands PS and you do, I think that you have an obligation to correct him.

Peace

Tim
 
Since there appears to no ‘official’ position of the church (rather interpretation), and if Christ performed the foot washing as an act of humility and servantry toward *His followers *and, if it is done today for the same reason, then wouldn’t any follower be acceptable anyway? Isn’t it legalism to insist it be men when women are also His followers? Would Christ really care whether a priest washed the foot of a women?
 
I don’t have an official statement. I have the FAQ from the archdioscean website and a photo of the Cardinal washing a woman’s foot.

As I suggested, if you don’t think that he understands PS and you do, I think that you have an obligation to correct him.

Peace

Tim
All I am saying is that a photograph and an FAQ are not substantive, nor are they authoritative documents of the Holy See. The only one who has universal jurisdiction and authority to amend the rituals of the Church is the Supreme Pontiff, himself. Bishops, whether they are archbishops or Cardinals, do not enjoy that authority.

Please do not make this personal. Often, when people run out of things to say in these forums, they tend to make the argument personal rather than stay with the issue.
 
Since there appears to no ‘official’ position of the church (rather interpretation), and if Christ performed the foot washing as an act of humility and servantry toward *His followers *and, if it is done today for the same reason, then wouldn’t any follower be acceptable anyway? Isn’t it legalism to insist it be men when women are also His followers? Would Christ really care whether a priest washed the foot of a women?
It is not legalism. The ritual, a very ancient one, is also very much tied into the priesthood. Remember that the Holy Eucharist was not the only sacrament celebrated on Holy Thursday. The priesthood was instituted that night as well. The priests, both in Ancient Israel and in New Israel (the Church), underwent a ritual purification ceremony.

The feet have a special significance because, as the psalm states, “how beautiful are the feet” of him who travels with the Good News. In fact, this particular psalm is used for the various feasts of the Apostles.

For you to say that there is no documentation indicates to me that, with all due respect, you have not read Paschale Solemnitatis nor the Sacramentary. Both documents specifically use the word “men”.
 
All I am saying is that a photograph and an FAQ are not substantive, nor are they authoritative documents of the Holy See. The only one who has universal jurisdiction and authority to amend the rituals of the Church is the Supreme Pontiff, himself. Bishops, whether they are archbishops or Cardinals, do not enjoy that authority.
You are missing my point. My interpretation and your interpretation are not authoritative. Cardinal DiNardo is my bishop and I will follow his direction.
Please do not make this personal. Often, when people run out of things to say in these forums, they tend to make the argument personal rather than stay with the issue.
This is not personal. You are making a statement that what Cardinal DiNardo is doing with regard to washing women’s feet is wrong based on PS. I am saying that I don’t care. I am following my bishop who was chosen by the Pope to lead this archdiocese. I’m very sure the Cardinal is aware of PS. I’m sure he can read it just as you have and he obviously comes to a different conclusion as to what is allowed and what isn’t. My issue is that and that alone.

So you can continue to make your case that your reading is the right one and the Cardinal’s is the wrong one. Just so I am clear, let me state it again. I don’t care. I will not oppose my bishop on this issue regardless if you are right or not.

Peace

Tim
 
You are missing my point. My interpretation and your interpretation are not authoritative. Cardinal DiNardo is my bishop and I will follow his direction.This is not personal. You are making a statement that what Cardinal DiNardo is doing with regard to washing women’s feet is wrong based on PS. I am saying that I don’t care. I am following my bishop who was chosen by the Pope to lead this archdiocese. I’m very sure the Cardinal is aware of PS. I’m sure he can read it just as you have and he obviously comes to a different conclusion as to what is allowed and what isn’t. My issue is that and that alone.

So you can continue to make your case that your reading is the right one and the Cardinal’s is the wrong one. Just so I am clear, let me state it again. I don’t care. I will not oppose my bishop on this issue regardless if you are right or not.

Peace

Tim
Again, you seem to not understand this matter. Disagreeing and raising the issue do not equate with disobedience and disrespect. The faithful certainly have the right to question something if there is just cause. Questioning is not a sign of disobedience nor disrespect.

In this case, Paschale Solemnitatis and the Sacramentary clearly state that it falls to men to have their feet washed. Rome granted one exception to Boston, but, it was not universal.

You have not submitted any documentation that backs up your assertion. An FAQ and a picture depicting what happened are not authoritative documentation.
 
You are missing my point. My interpretation and your interpretation are not authoritative. Cardinal DiNardo is my bishop and I will follow his direction.This is not personal. You are making a statement that what Cardinal DiNardo is doing with regard to washing women’s feet is wrong based on PS. I am saying that I don’t care. I am following my bishop who was chosen by the Pope to lead this archdiocese. I’m very sure the Cardinal is aware of PS. I’m sure he can read it just as you have and he obviously comes to a different conclusion as to what is allowed and what isn’t. My issue is that and that alone.

So you can continue to make your case that your reading is the right one and the Cardinal’s is the wrong one. Just so I am clear, let me state it again. I don’t care. I will not oppose my bishop on this issue regardless if you are right or not.

Peace

Tim
What she is saying the only authority here in liturgical matters is PS issued officially from Rome. The opinion of the USCCB has no authority and the document publiched on teh website is not actually written by the Bishops anyway.
 
For you to say that there is no documentation indicates to me that, with all due respect, you have not read Paschale Solemnitatis nor the Sacramentary. Both documents specifically use the word “men”.
My apology. You’re right I have not read those. I’m a brand new Catholic and have a VERY hard time reading those documents (but I’m trying). I’m having *great difficulty *with the Catholic terminology and acronyms (there sure is a million of them!). The Church needs to institute a special required class on Catholic Terminology and Acronyms 101, as our RICA requirements. 😃

Actually though, my questions was more in response to what older and more knowledgeable Catholics have been presenting within this thread. There certainly seems to be a disagreement on the issue; one that points more to interruption of whether ‘men’ means male or has been relaxed to mean ‘all followers’. To that respect there seems to be no official documentation presented here.
 
Actually though, my questions was more in response to what older and more knowledgeable Catholics have been presenting within this thread. There certainly seems to be a disagreement on the issue; one that points more to interruption of whether ‘men’ means male or has been relaxed to mean ‘all followers’. To that respect there seems to be no official documentation presented here.
That is why we must go to the Latin, not a squishy language like English 🙂

Notice the word used in Latin. Had the Vatican meant “all followers/mankind/humans” the Latin word used would have been “homines”.
  1. Viri selecti deducúntur a ministris ad sedilia loco apto parata. Tunc sacerdos (deposita, si necesse sit, casula) accedit ad singulos, eisque fundit aquam super pedes et abstergit, adiuvantibus ministris.
You can find Paschale Solemnitas in Latin itself on vatican.va, under resources, click “Official Acts” then Acta Apostolicae Sedis.
 
Oh gez, now I have to learn Latin, too? Okay, no one told me this when I signed up to be Catholic…LOTF!! :frighten:
 
My apology. You’re right I have not read those. I’m a brand new Catholic and have a VERY hard time reading those documents (but I’m trying). I’m having *great difficulty *with the Catholic terminology and acronyms (there sure is a million of them!). The Church needs to institute a special required class on Catholic Terminology and Acronyms 101, as our RICA requirements. 😃

Actually though, my questions was more in response to what older and more knowledgeable Catholics have been presenting within this thread. There certainly seems to be a disagreement on the issue; one that points more to interruption of whether ‘men’ means male or has been relaxed to mean ‘all followers’. To that respect there seems to be no official documentation presented here.
The official language of the Roman Rite is Latin all official documents from Rome are published in Latin. That is where someone must go for the official version of the document. The language of the Church is very specific and precise in it’s official documents. One must learn this language so as to not misinterpret a document. Sometimes English language translations can be misleading.
 
Yes, I know. If you’re saying they’re not the same thing, then the next question is: “candidates” for what? City Council? Congress? :confused:
I don’t know if anyone answered malphono’s question in post #13. Catechumens are people who will be baptised, confirmed and receive first Holy Communion at the Easter Vigil. Candidates are candidates for full communion in the Catholic Church–they are baptized Christians from other denominations who will make a profession of faith that they believe all that the Catholic Church believes and teaches as revealed by God (or words to that effect; I haven’t got the exact words memorized). Anyway–just wanted to clear that up; that “candidate” is really a correct term for people who don’t need baptism but wish to join the Catholic Church and be confirmed and make their first Holy Communion.
 
That is why we must go to the Latin, not a squishy language like English 🙂

Notice the word used in Latin. Had the Vatican meant “all followers/mankind/humans” the Latin word used would have been “homines”.
  1. Viri selecti deducúntur a ministris ad sedilia loco apto parata. Tunc sacerdos (deposita, si necesse sit, casula) accedit ad singulos, eisque fundit aquam super pedes et abstergit, adiuvantibus ministris.
You can find Paschale Solemnitas in Latin itself on vatican.va, under resources, click “Official Acts” then Acta Apostolicae Sedis.
Kage_ar, I have been looking through the Acta Apostolica Sedis and I cannot find it. My eyes are getting bleary. Where is it?
 
I don’t know if anyone answered malphono’s question in post #13. Catechumens are people who will be baptised, confirmed and receive first Holy Communion at the Easter Vigil. Candidates are candidates for full communion in the Catholic Church–they are baptized Christians from other denominations who will make a profession of faith that they believe all that the Catholic Church believes and teaches as revealed by God (or words to that effect; I haven’t got the exact words memorized). Anyway–just wanted to clear that up; that “candidate” is really a correct term for people who don’t need baptism but wish to join the Catholic Church and be confirmed and make their first Holy Communion.
However, once a catechumen goes through the Rite of Election, he is now counted among the Elect, those who will be baptized at the Easter Vigil. The candidates are those who were baptized in Protestant Ecclesial Communities (provided these baptisms are recognized by the Church) who now seek full communion with the Church.
 
I don’t know if anyone answered malphono’s question in post #13. Catechumens are people who will be baptised, confirmed and receive first Holy Communion at the Easter Vigil. Candidates are candidates for full communion in the Catholic Church–they are baptized Christians from other denominations who will make a profession of faith that they believe all that the Catholic Church believes and teaches as revealed by God (or words to that effect; I haven’t got the exact words memorized). Anyway–just wanted to clear that up; that “candidate” is really a correct term for people who don’t need baptism but wish to join the Catholic Church and be confirmed and make their first Holy Communion.
Yes, thanks, I know the difference between the two, but if you look at the OP the usage of the word “candidate” isn’t particularly clear.

In any case, the technical difference begs the question: neither “catechumen” nor “candidate” is fully a member, and thus I hold to the [post=6473918]comment[/post] I posted earlier.
 
Again, you seem to not understand this matter.
No, I understand it much better than you might think. I am not holding myself up as an expert on this issue, you are. I have suggested that if you truly believe that the Cardinal is in error, you should bring it to his attention. I suspect that you won’t, but I could be wrong. I think that if you do, you might be surprised that he actually is familiar with that document and so it will come down to you versus him regarding the proper way to conduct foot washing during Holy Thursday Mass. I suspect you won’t win that discussion, so you can report him on up the chain of command. As Br. Rich noted in an earlier post, I’m sure that more than one letter has been written and, at least so far, there has been no change. Maybe you will have better luck.

This is my last post on this topic. Consider me a stupid lackey who will follow his bishop unquestioningly if you like. I just know that there are a lot of people on this forum that like to point out that their inerrant interpretation of the rules are right and the shepherds appointed by the Church are wrong. I put much, much more weight behind the teaching of my bishop than I do anyone else, whether they be on this forum or anywhere else.

Peace

Tim
 
No, I understand it much better than you might think. I am not holding myself up as an expert on this issue, you are. I have suggested that if you truly believe that the Cardinal is in error, you should bring it to his attention. I suspect that you won’t, but I could be wrong. I think that if you do, you might be surprised that he actually is familiar with that document and so it will come down to you versus him regarding the proper way to conduct foot washing during Holy Thursday Mass. I suspect you won’t win that discussion, so you can report him on up the chain of command. As Br. Rich noted in an earlier post, I’m sure that more than one letter has been written and, at least so far, there has been no change. Maybe you will have better luck.

This is my last post on this topic. Consider me a stupid lackey who will follow his bishop unquestioningly if you like. I just know that there are a lot of people on this forum that like to point out that their inerrant interpretation of the rules are right and the shepherds appointed by the Church are wrong. I put much, much more weight behind the teaching of my bishop than I do anyone else, whether they be on this forum or anywhere else.

Peace

Tim
First of all, please do not put words in my mouth. As I have repeatedly said throughout this thread, you have not provided any authoritative documentation other than an FAQ reference and a photograph.

Second, please do not take such an insulting tone. The problem is that when folks, as I see it, run out of arguments to make, they resort to emotionalism and putting words into other posters typing fingers. Raising legitimate questions about liturgical practices is not akin to disobedience.
 
The official language of the Roman Rite is Latin all official documents from Rome are published in Latin. That is where someone must go for the official version of the document. The language of the Church is very specific and precise in it’s official documents. One must learn this language so as to not misinterpret a document. Sometimes English language translations can be misleading.
I’m an old lady and don’t have years to learn to and study things like this. I’m not so sure, with my brain disorder, I could learn a new language well enough to read through these documents anyway.

Surely there is an English version translated from the Latin with accuracy??? Surely the Church knows not everyone speaks Latin?

If not, then perhaps instead of arguing over it, we need to begin a campaign to get the Church to accurately translate it. I fully understand that some words have no English equivalence, however, if it takes a paragraph to explain it, surely the Church can specify what the word “men” means (ie: ‘male’ or ‘all followers’).

Dear friends, this is all truly discouraging for someone new in the faith who doesn’t have years to learn. It seems like in almost every thread, no two people agree on what the church’s position is on anything. If that’s the case, then how is a new member to become grounded in truth and learn to truly be Catholic? I find myself in tears out of frustration in trying to get answers to some of my most basic questions without one saying ‘it’s this way’ and another saying, ‘No! It’s this way’. If Catholics can’t agree on the simplest things, what hope is there for The Church when times come that challenge our faith even more?

Plus, it’s so heartbreaking that rather than respectfully debating these issues or finding out the correct answers, everyone starts arguing about it and insulting each other and thread gets locked so no more questions can even be asked; or very valid points listed.
 
Oh gez, now I have to learn Latin, too? Okay, no one told me this when I signed up to be Catholic…LOTF!! :frighten:
Basic school Latin (I had it in grade school and then again in high school) will give you a framework and with the interent you can look up words to know their exact meaning.

That, or go to trusted resources who have the answers! Like, Catholic Answers (www.catholic.com) or EWTN (www.ewtn.com)
 
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