FOR ALL THE ONCE SAVE ALWAYS SAVE PEOPLE again

[Peter_J]

Although I don’t entirely approve of this thread, it occurs to me that it does give you Protestants a little “taste” or your own “medicine”. More specifically, you might think of this thread the next time you’re inclined to ask “What if the Pope infallibly declared something, and then later it turned out to be false?”

 

[Howie01]

Could you quote the specific document that you’re getting that from?

Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.

 

[Bookworm88]

And that’s the question we have. How can someone who moves away from God in a serious way (commits a serious sin like murder) and dies without being repentant go to Heaven?

Why can’t anyone answer that question?

I’ll give the question a try.
I believe such a person can go to heaven because I really don’t see a difference between “a serious sin” and “a not-so-serious sin.” Would it be okay if I was angry and unrepentant? Would I still go to heaven then? Is it really possible for me to catch every sin I commit right the moment I commit it and repent of it? Doesn’t a Catholic person commit sins between confessions? Do those sins keep a Catholic person out of Heaven? I assume the answer is going to be that there is a difference between mortal sins and other sins, but are those distinctions specifically made in the Bible? The Bible says that if a person has broken the law in one manner, they have broken the whole law.

There have been a couple of comments about free will. My question about that is this: When a person dies and goes to heaven, do they have free will to commit a sin up there that gets them kicked out of heaven? I don’t believe they do. So do we lose our free will once we get up to heaven? That depends on how you define one’s will, I suppose. I don’t believe that a true Christian has the free will to turn away from God. Turning away from God is not part of the essential nature of a Christian. I don’t have the free will to do something in opposition to my nature any more than I have the free will flap my wings and fly.

I believe that when a person is truly saved, they receive a new nature, They are then indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit. I really don’t think the Holy Spirit jumps in and out of people depending on whether they have commited a sin but haven’t repented of it yet.

 

[kalt]

Then ask yourself this question:Has your free-will been "wiped away?"

Of course not! As a Catholic, that would be presumptuous of you.

Mt 10:22.

My friend, I’ve answered that question for you a number of times.

Read the subject, if you’re really interested.

OK. Your answers are evidence that you either wish to avoid answering the question or that you don’t know the answer.

You don’t need to bother responing to this post.

I was asking in the hope that somone who knows the answer would respond. I don’t understand why someone who believes in OSAS doesn’t know what he believes or refuses to answer a very simple question about it. There has to be someone here who knows, so it must be that no one chooses to answer the question. Oh well.

 

[kalt]

I’ll give the question a try.
I believe such a person can go to heaven because I really don’t see a difference between “a serious sin” and “a not-so-serious sin.” Would it be okay if I was angry and unrepentant? Would I still go to heaven then? Is it really possible for me to catch every sin I commit right the moment I commit it and repent of it? Doesn’t a Catholic person commit sins between confessions? Do those sins keep a Catholic person out of Heaven? I assume the answer is going to be that there is a difference between mortal sins and other sins, but are those distinctions specifically made in the Bible? The Bible says that if a person has broken the law in one manner, they have broken the whole law.

There have been a couple of comments about free will. My question about that is this: When a person dies and goes to heaven, do they have free will to commit a sin up there that gets them kicked out of heaven? I don’t believe they do. So do we lose our free will once we get up to heaven? That depends on how you define one’s will, I suppose. I don’t believe that a true Christian has the free will to turn away from God. Turning away from God is not part of the essential nature of a Christian. I don’t have the free will to do something in opposition to my nature any more than I have the free will flap my wings and fly.

I believe that when a person is truly saved, they receive a new nature, They are then indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit. I really don’t think the Holy Spirit jumps in and out of people depending on whether they have commited a sin but haven’t repented of it yet.

First, thank you for repsonding. I thought no on ever would.

Going off on a tanget here, sort of.

Sin and free will.

What does sin mean, if it doesn’t mean turning away from God? With every sin we turn our backs to what God wishes, I think. God wants us to do his will, but when we sin we do our own will. We have the free will always, then (and sinning is proof of this), to do God’s will or not.

I think you do have the free will to do something that’s against your usual nature. As you said, a born again person will have a new nature. If that nature is to follow Jesus, the fact that you still sin is proof that you have free will to go against that new nature.

I think there’s evidence in the Bible that some sins seperate us from God for eternity. And there is evidence that there are some sins that seperate us from God, but not eternally. People are cleansed of those sins before entering Heaven–they will see the face of God, as they say. But we know that some sinners won’t go to Heaven. Hell is the eternal seperation from God.

We also know that some of those people believe in Jesus. Believing in Jesus isn’t enough–the Bible speaks about this, also.

The devil believes in God, I think.

Nothing impure can enter Heaven. But can something go bad once it’s there? That’s a good question!

If I can’t find an answer, I’ll ask on the Ask an Expert board.

If I have it right, those who believe in OSAS, believe that someone who is truly born again won’t commit sins that are against his new nature. There is no difference between mortal and venial sins. And once someone is born again, he will go to Heaven, even if he commits sins that a Catholic would consider serious sins. Correct?

 

[Bookworm88]

If I have it right, those who believe in OSAS, believe that someone who is truly born again won’t commit sins that are against his new nature. There is no difference between mortal and venial sins. And once someone is born again, he will go to Heaven, even if he commits sins that a Catholic would consider serious sins. Correct?

I wouldn’t say that a person who is born again “won’t commit sins that go against his new nature.” That is like saying a saved person will never sin, and I’m not saying that. What I am saying is that the sins of a born-again person cannot make that person spiriually dead again because his new nature is one of life, spiritual life that the Bible describes as everlasting. John 3:16 says For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. The having of everlasting life seems to be a present-tense experience, not something that we have to wait until we die to obtain. Ephesians 2:1 says, And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins. So the spiritual deadness was a past tense experience for those people and spiritual life was their present-tense state. So how do Catholics understand the word “everlasting” in relation to spiritual life if they think that this life can be lost? It wouldn’t be everlasting then, would it?

And yes, we do not see any difference between mortal and venial sins. Every sin is serious, even a little fib, but the death of Christ on the cross has covered every sin, so even the serious ones are covered when we get our new life at salvation.

 

[kalt]

I wouldn’t say that a person who is born again “won’t commit sins that go against his new nature.” That is like saying a saved person will never sin, and I’m not saying that. What I am saying is that the sins of a born-again person cannot make that person spiriually dead again because his new nature is one of life, spiritual life that the Bible describes as everlasting. John 3:16 says For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. The having of everlasting life seems to be a present-tense experience, not something that we have to wait until we die to obtain. Ephesians 2:1 says, And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins. So the spiritual deadness was a past tense experience for those people and spiritual life was their present-tense state. So how do Catholics understand the word “everlasting” in relation to spiritual life if they think that this life can be lost? It wouldn’t be everlasting then, would it?

And yes, we do not see any difference between mortal and venial sins. Every sin is serious, even a little fib, but the death of Christ on the cross has covered every sin, so even the serious ones are covered when we get our new life at salvation.

This is why so many think that OSAS means that you can sin without worrying about it. (I know that’s not what you’re saying.)

Is there a price for sin after you are saved? If there is, what is the price?

How does someone who is OSAS commit murder, not be sorry for it, and still go to Heaven? That’s what we really don’t understand. You can insert any sin you want there. I pick murder, because it’s widely believed to be a very serious sin. But it could be any sin.

Maybe I should as first if a OSAS is capable of murder.

 

[Bookworm88]

This is why so many think that OSAS means that you can sin without worrying about it. (I know that’s not what you’re saying.)

Is there a price for sin after you are saved? If there is, what is the price?

Didn’t Christ pay enough of a price on the cross? I’m not sure what kind of price for sin that I could possibly pay. In my viewpoint, the sacrifice of Christ is sufficient. Do you believe a price has to be paid in addition to the cross?

How does someone who is OSAS commit murder, not be sorry for it, and still go to Heaven? That’s what we really don’t understand. You can insert any sin you want there. I pick murder, because it’s widely believed to be a very serious sin. But it could be any sin.

Maybe I should as first if a OSAS is capable of murder.

Any person is capable of any sin, in my opinion. I’ll pick lying for this question instead of murder, since in my viewpoint, God does not like either of them. Can a Catholic person tell a lie, forget to mention that lie at confession, and still go to heaven? If the Catholic person does mention it at conferssion, and the priest tells him to do penance, but he dies before he does that penance, does he go to Heaven?
If you say that he DOES go to Heaven, even with the unpenanced lie on his soul, then your reasons for saying that would be pretty much the same reasons I would have for ANY sin, even murder, keeping an OSAS person on their way to Heaven.
If, on the other hand, you say that even a lie would keep a Catholic out of heaven, then how could Catholics ever keep up with all the sins we commit each day? You’d have to go to confession almost every hour.

I’m still wondering about the Catholic perspective on the idea of spiritual life being “everlasting.” Do you guys have a different definition for “everlasting” than the commonly used one?

 

[Fisher]

Many Scriptures make it unmistakably plain that the man who is trusting Jesus Christ as Savior has eternal life. John 5:24 says, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life. . . .” Notice the Bible does not say, “He that believes on the Son will have. . . .” It says, “hath.” That is present tense. That means the man who is trusting Jesus Christ completely for salvation has everlasting life now. It is not something that God promised him, provided he meets certain additional conditions. It is something he has the moment he believes on Christ.

But notice that Jesus goes a little further than saying we have everlasting life. He makes it doubly sure in John 5:24, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

In addition to saying that the believer has everlasting life the moment he believes, Jesus adds the promise that he shall not come into condemnation; that is, the sentence of sin will never be put on the believer again.

John 10:28 says, “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

When you look up the word “never” which occurs in John 10:28 in the Strong’s Concordance, on page 715, you find that it comes from four different Greek words, which spelled in English letters are OUME, EIS, HO, and AION. Looking up each of these words in turn in the Strong’s Concordance you find that OUME (#3364) means, “not at all, by no means, in no case, never.” EIS (#1519) means, 44place, time, purpose." HO Q3588) means “male, female, or (even) neuter.” AION Q165) means,
“perpetually, eternally.”

Put the meanings of all these root words together; and you find that when Christ said “never” here in this verse, it carries with it very powerful assurance-more than one word “never” ordinarily carries with it in our minds.

Looking at John 10:28 with this additional light we could write it this way and give it the emphasis Christ did when He spoke it: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall NOT AT ALL, BY ANY MEANS, IN ANY CASE, IN ANY PLACE, AT ANY TIME, FOR ANY PURPOSE, WHETHER THEY ARE MALE OR FEMALE, PERPETUALLY AND ETERNALLY, ever perish. . . .”

The Bible makes it plain again and again that the believer is kept by God. If we had to keep ourselves, I would admit that we could be lost again and probably would be. In one of Spurgeon’s sermons he said, “If it should ever come to pass that sheep of God could fall away, alas my fickle, feeble soul would fall ten thousand times a day.”

No, we cannot keep ourselves. Thank God, we are kept by God Himself! In H Timothy 1:12 Paul said, “For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.” Here the apostle says, “I am persuaded [that is, I am thoroughly convinced] that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him.”

It is my business to trust Jesus Christ as Savior. It is His business to keep me. First Peter 1:3-5 says:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

In these verses we are told that the inheritance is reserved for us and we are reserved or kept for the inheritance. The Bible says, “To an inheritance incorruptible. . . .” That means that it will not corrupt, will not decay. It will last. It will be there when we get there. Peter continues, "To an in heritance incorruptible and undefiled, that fadeth not away. . . "

What are you trusting in ? what is your faith in? Is it in man? or is it in the Godman? Jesus Christ I am,creator,savior,first and last,Rock of salvation,fountain of living waters,all authority and power,KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS,which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person…Godhead bodily,Emmanuel,Alpha and Omega.for ever and ever.Amen
Acts 26:18, “To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God,** that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.” **

Where is your faith if you are not 100% sure where you will spend eternity if not then you are probably not saved. If your not saved then ask God right now that is faith,
Dont take my word for it don’t trust me or any other sinful man for that matter. Trust the living God and His Holy Word. Ask the Lord Jesus to save you. The bible said Rom For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord** shall be saved**.

Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

[kalt]

Didn’t Christ pay enough of a price on the cross? I’m not sure what kind of price for sin that I could possibly pay. In my viewpoint, the sacrifice of Christ is sufficient. Do you believe a price has to be paid in addition to the cross?

Any person is capable of any sin, in my opinion. I’ll pick lying for this question instead of murder, since in my viewpoint, God does not like either of them. Can a Catholic person tell a lie, forget to mention that lie at confession, and still go to heaven? If the Catholic person does mention it at conferssion, and the priest tells him to do penance, but he dies before he does that penance, does he go to Heaven?
If you say that he DOES go to Heaven, even with the unpenanced lie on his soul, then your reasons for saying that would be pretty much the same reasons I would have for ANY sin, even murder, keeping an OSAS person on their way to Heaven.
If, on the other hand, you say that even a lie would keep a Catholic out of heaven, then how could Catholics ever keep up with all the sins we commit each day? You’d have to go to confession almost every hour.

I’m still wondering about the Catholic perspective on the idea of spiritual life being “everlasting.” Do you guys have a different definition for “everlasting” than the commonly used one?

I’ll try my best to answer all of your questions.

Christ’s work on the cross is sufficient. We are redeemed by His death. However, his death doesn’t guarantee that we will be saved. Salvation is a gift that is ours to accept or reject, and you can’t know until death whether you will have stayed the course. The Bible says to work out our salvation. Paul worried that he would lose out in the end. Clearly, I think, the Bible is telling us that we aren’t guaranteed salvation just by becoming Christians.

The price of sin is seperation from God. The ultimate price of sin is eternal seperation from God - Hell.

Yes, a person can forget to confess a sin in Confession and it is still a good confession. After the person remembers it, he should mention it at his next Confession. Confession isn’t about having perfect recall, it’s about beiing truly honest with ourselves about what we’ve done and being sorry for it.

A person is forgiven his sins in Confession. If he dies before completing his penance, he will go to Heaven, even if he confessed to murder. Any unpaid “debts” will be paid in Purgatory, which really means that his soul will be cleansed of all debts due to sin before he enters Heaven.

We’re required to confess all mortal sins before receiving Communion. Venial sins, no matter how many we commit, never add up to a mortal sin. If you die without confessing venial sins in sacramental Confession, you will still go to Heaven. Again, you’ll have to be cleansed in Purgatory first.

When we are Baptized, we are marked as Christians. (Baptism is more than just a sign in Catholicism.) That is eternal. It doesn’t mean, though, that we are guaranteed salvation.

God’s death made salvation possible for us, but it didn’t guarantee that any particular individual will be saved.

The Bible also tells us to pray for the dead. If the dead were already in Heaven, why would we need to pray for them? If they were in Hell–eternally separated from God–what good would our prayers do?

Souls in Purgatory are guaranteed a place in Heaven. No soul being cleansed in Purgatory goes to Hell.

I hope that answers some of your questions about Catholicism and Heaven/Hell/salvation.

I admit, though, that I’m still confused over exactly how someone can commit sins and still go to Heaven. If there is no price for your sins, then maybe the OSAS position really does say that you can sin and “get away with it”. I understand that the OSAS position doesn’t advocate sinning, but it does sound like there are no consequences for the sinner if he chooses to sin.

Does the OSAS position say that people who sin are moving away from God when they sin? If not, what is the price of sin for the individual who chooses to sin?

Does the OSAS position hold that anyone who isn’t born again (by its own definition of born again) goes to Hell? If so, why? If not, why not?

Does the OSAS position allow that anyone who isn’t born again will go the Heaven?

 

[kalt]

John 5 goes on to say. -

“Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.”

“Faith without works is dead.”

When asked about what someone needs to do to be saved, Jesus answered - “keep the commandments.”

Clearly, someone who is not keeping the commandments will not be saved. Someone who does evil works will not be saved.

There is nothing in there that says that someone who is baptized is given a pass on sin, not keeping the commandments, choosing not to do good works.

At any rate, I think this was written to address Jews, and Christians who were putting John the Baptist above Jesus (following John instead of Jesus). The writers made it clear that Jesus was the one with the power, which he got from the Father.

I don’t see anything her that contradicts the other passages in the Bible that tell us to work out our salvation–and this told to people who were already baptized, who had already “accepted Jesus”.

The dogma of OSAS is a newcomer on the Christian scene. It wasn’t accepted, or even suggested I think, before the Reformation. So why do otherwise “Bible Christians” who say that they wish to restore the Church to its pristine beginnings, add a new and very different dogma on salvation?

I am not concerned that I am not guaranteed salvation, because no one else is either. The only thing I can do to to help myself is to do what God wills, because God wills it.

Assured salvation seems to be all about the person who wants a guarantee and has little to do with worshiping God for his own sake. It seems like it’s about what the person gets out of worship than what God gets out of worship.

OSAS as it’s explained here seems to be the reverse of what the Church taught from the beginning. Instead of worshiping God for God’s sake and suffering the natural price for sinning (seperation from God), the OSAS person worships God becasue that worship comes with a guarantee–assurance of eternal salvation.

Would OSAS people choose to be Christian if they knew that their salvation wasn’t guaranteed?

It does seem that the OSAS position teaches that there is no personal price for sin once a person has accepted Jesus. What does “keep the commandments” if you want to be saved really mean, then?

 

[Bill_Pick]

Many Scriptures make it unmistakably plain that the man who is trusting Jesus Christ as Savior has eternal life. John 5:24 says, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life. . . .” Notice the Bible does not say, “He that believes on the Son will have. . . .” It says, “hath.” That is present tense. That means the man who is trusting Jesus Christ completely for salvation has everlasting life now. It is not something that God promised him, provided he meets certain additional conditions. It is something he has the moment he believes on Christ.

But notice that Jesus goes a little further than saying we have everlasting life. He makes it doubly sure in John 5:24, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

In addition to saying that the believer has everlasting life the moment he believes, Jesus adds the promise that he shall not come into condemnation; that is, the sentence of sin will never be put on the believer again.

John 10:28 says, “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

When you look up the word “never” which occurs in John 10:28 in the Strong’s Concordance, on page 715, you find that it comes from four different Greek words, which spelled in English letters are OUME, EIS, HO, and AION. Looking up each of these words in turn in the Strong’s Concordance you find that OUME (#3364) means, “not at all, by no means, in no case, never.” EIS (#1519) means, 44place, time, purpose." HO Q3588) means “male, female, or (even) neuter.” AION Q165) means,
“perpetually, eternally.”

Put the meanings of all these root words together; and you find that when Christ said “never” here in this verse, it carries with it very powerful assurance-more than one word “never” ordinarily carries with it in our minds.

Looking at John 10:28 with this additional light we could write it this way and give it the emphasis Christ did when He spoke it: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall NOT AT ALL, BY ANY MEANS, IN ANY CASE, IN ANY PLACE, AT ANY TIME, FOR ANY PURPOSE, WHETHER THEY ARE MALE OR FEMALE, PERPETUALLY AND ETERNALLY, ever perish. . . .”

The Bible makes it plain again and again that the believer is kept by God. If we had to keep ourselves, I would admit that we could be lost again and probably would be. In one of Spurgeon’s sermons he said, “If it should ever come to pass that sheep of God could fall away, alas my fickle, feeble soul would fall ten thousand times a day.”

No, we cannot keep ourselves. Thank God, we are kept by God Himself! In H Timothy 1:12 Paul said, “For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.” Here the apostle says, “I am persuaded [that is, I am thoroughly convinced] that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him.”

It is my business to trust Jesus Christ as Savior. It is His business to keep me. First Peter 1:3-5 says:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

In these verses we are told that the inheritance is reserved for us and we are reserved or kept for the inheritance. The Bible says, “To an inheritance incorruptible. . . .” That means that it will not corrupt, will not decay. It will last. It will be there when we get there. Peter continues, "To an in heritance incorruptible and undefiled, that fadeth not away. . . "

What are you trusting in ? what is your faith in? Is it in man? or is it in the Godman? Jesus Christ I am,creator,savior,first and last,Rock of salvation,fountain of living waters,all authority and power,KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS,which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person…Godhead bodily,Emmanuel,Alpha and Omega.for ever and ever.Amen
Acts 26:18, “To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God,** that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.” **

Where is your faith if you are not 100% sure where you will spend eternity if not then you are probably not saved. If your not saved then ask God right now that is faith,
Dont take my word for it don’t trust me or any other sinful man for that matter. Trust the living God and His Holy Word. Ask the Lord Jesus to save you. The bible said Rom For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord** shall be saved**.

Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

please read phil2-12 1peter 1-9 mt10-22 mt24-13 mk 8-35

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Fisher…

Scripture verses do not exist in a vacuum. You cannot take them out of context to fit that which you want to believe to be true which really is not.

~ Romans 8:1-2 does not say absolute assurance
~ Romans 6:15-16 says that sin leads to death

~ Matthew 5:27-30 Jesus does not discharge us from the moral law! There is consequence for sinning!

~ Matthew 18:8-9

~ Matthew 13:40-42; Matthew 18:23-35 & Matthew 6:14-15 (we must forgive others);

Once saved, you cannot sin…NO!

~ Romans 7:15 “For I do not do what I want, but I do the very things I hate.”

Once saved, sin no longer holds any consequences? NO!

~ Paul writes to believers but preaches about avoiding sin.

~ Romans 12:21 & 15:15; Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 6:18 & 11:17-22 & 15:12; Ephesians 4:25-32 & 5:5; James 2:1 & 4:1-4; Matthew 5:31-48 & 6:1-7; Colossians 3:25; 1 Peter 1:1-2 & 2:1, 2 Peter 1:1 & 3:17

If OSAS is true why does the NT teach so much about avoiding sin?

Other Problems if Protestant View is True
A. Must endure until the end
~ Matthew 10:22
~ Hebrews 10:35-36
~ Hebrews 12:1
B. Hope
~ Romans 8:24-25
~ Romans 15:13
~ Romans 5:2
C. Paul didn’t have “absolute assurance”
~ Philippians 3:10-13
~ 1 Corinthians 9:26-27

Other verses that wouldn’t make sense if Protestant view is true
~ 2 Corinthians 13:5-6
~ 1 Thessalonians 5:23
~ Philippians 2:12
~ Hebrews 4:1,11
~ Colossians 1:21-23
The “Book of Life”
~ Revelation 20:15
~ Psalms 69:28
~ Revelation 3:1-5

Once Saved, Always Saved…NO!
~ Hebrews 10:38
~ Ezekiel 33:12-19
~ Ezekiel 18:21-24
~ 1 Timothy 4:1
~ John 2:11 with John 6:16-22, 66
~ 2 Timothy 3:16

I would ask you and any other Protestant who believes in OSAS to read these passages from scripture and pray over them with the hope that the Holy Spirit may give you understanding of how false this doctrine really is.

God bless!

 

[look3467]

Gen 41:32 And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

First , the first Adam was created and death came
Second, the second Adam Jesus came and brought life

“The thing” in our case is salvation, and is established after Adam was doubled to where the third time (The new creature) salvation is granted.

Now, the number of a man is 6. Doubled is 66. Meaning the first is canceled by the second and the third 6 is the new man.

Hence the “new man” is a new creature, born again with life from God that will never die.

This is a one time action of which is no repeating.

When we are born again, we are born for life.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Bookworm88]

I admit, though, that I’m still confused over exactly how someone can commit sins and still go to Heaven. If there is no price for your sins, then maybe the OSAS position really does say that you can sin and “get away with it”. I understand that the OSAS position doesn’t advocate sinning, but it does sound like there are no consequences for the sinner if he chooses to sin.

I don’t have much time at the computer right now, but I figured I should respond to this since you are still confused, and other people have complained about this question not being answered. One of the reasons I asked you about confession was so that I could see exactly how you as a Catholic view the consequences of sin. You stated *“We’re required to confess all mortal sins before receiving Communion. Venial sins, no matter how many we commit, never add up to a mortal sin. If you die without confessing venial sins in sacramental Confession, you will still go to Heaven. Again, you’ll have to be cleansed in Purgatory first.” * Aren’t you saying here that a person can commit venial sins and still go to Heaven without confessing them? How does that work? Does your position really say that you can sin and “get away with it”? Is there no price for a venial sin other than a bit of time in Purgatory? Is that really a price if a person still gets to go to heaven? (And I’ve never found Purgatory mentioned in the Bible.) I have to admit that I am still a bit confused why you are hung up about us paying prices when Christ paid the price for sin on the cross. You mentioned about us having to “work out our own salvation”, but the OSAS position has a logical explanation for that. Picture an arm with just skin and bones, but no muscle. If you were to exercise that arm, doing 100 arm curls, would muscles appear on the arm? Of course not, since the arm is just skin and bones. No amount of work can create muscles when none exist. I believe that when a person gets saved, God puts spiritual muscles on their skin and bone arms, but they are baby muscles, not fully mature muscles. The Bible describes some Christians as babes and others as mature. What is the difference? The mature Christians have worked out their spiritual muscles, but they had to HAVE them in place in the first place for them to work out those muscles. When the Bible tells us to work out our salvation, it is not telling us to work to GET salvation, but to develop the salvation we already have to maturity. A mature Christian looks more like Christ in their daily lives than what a babe does.

When we are Baptized, we are marked as Christians. (Baptism is more than just a sign in Catholicism.) That is eternal. It doesn’t mean, though, that we are guaranteed salvation.

What exactly does it mean to you to be an eternal Christian? To my mind, being a Christian and having salvation would be the same thing, but they must be different in your perspective. When a Catholic is rebellious, do they ever have to get baptized over again when they come back to God? Why not? It seems to me that you guys have an OSAS-type position in regards to one’s baptism (once washed of original sin/always washed of original sin). Isn’t that true? In my position, there is no difference between mortal, venial, original, or any other sin. When we are declared righteous by God due to our faith, ALL of our sins are washed, whether they are original, mortal, venial, and otherwise. We just have the same position about all our sin as you guys have about original sin at baptism. Is that so hard to understand? I recognize that you don’t agree with it, but is it at least understandable where I am coming from?

 

[look3467]

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

There are two types of death, one is physical and the other eternal which is spiritual.

Now, sins are committed only while in the flesh, so when the flesh dies, there is no longer any sin, giving reason to the verse above, " For the wages of sin is death". Physical death for the “gift” of life is granted us and that being without sin, but perfect.

And only In Jesus are we made perfect, that is, if we are born again of the spirit of God.

God has taken care of the your meeting the perfection of His righteousness in Jesus for the purpose of your acquiring eternal life.

Once you are born again, the works you do are either you are going to be blessed in, or you are going to be cursed in, yet while you are alive in the physical.

This verse gives us the freedom to act: Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Only in “Time” can we do work, therefore, what you sow you shall reap in “Time”.

So the following verse tells us that the flesh is what will suffer blessings or loss, but if we are born again in the spirit, we shall not maybe, but shall reap eternal life. Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

This is my view and one which I live by since I was as a child.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[kalt]

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

There are two types of death, one is physical and the other eternal which is spiritual.

Now, sins are committed only while in the flesh, so when the flesh dies, there is no longer any sin, giving reason to the verse above, " For the wages of sin is death". Physical death for the “gift” of life is granted us and that being without sin, but perfect.

And only In Jesus are we made perfect, that is, if we are born again of the spirit of God.

God has taken care of the your meeting the perfection of His righteousness in Jesus for the purpose of your acquiring eternal life.

Once you are born again, the works you do are either you are going to be blessed in, or you are going to be cursed in, yet while you are alive in the physical.

This verse gives us the freedom to act: Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Only in “Time” can we do work, therefore, what you sow you shall reap in “Time”.

So the following verse tells us that the flesh is what will suffer blessings or loss, but if we are born again in the spirit, we shall not maybe, but shall reap eternal life. Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

This is my view and one which I live by since I was as a child.

Peace>>>AJ

How are we cursed for sinning? Who curses us? If God has paid the price for sin and we are made blameless, why are we still cursed?

 

[Fisher]

“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins… For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Acts 10:43; Romans 10:13)

1st Corinthians 15:1-2

“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.”

Please look down a few verses at 1st Corinthians 15:12-14…

“Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.”

It is clear from verses 12-14 that the Apostle Paul is warning about unsaved religious people in the church in verses 1 and 2; not true believers in danger of losing their salvation. Paul is simply warning the churchgoers at Corinth that they had better examine their faith (see 2nd Corinthians 13:5), because some of them were denying the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Obviously, such a person would not be saved. There are many professed “Christians” today who deny the deity of Jesus Christ, the Godhead and the Virgin Birth. They are unsaved modernist imposters.

Once again, we clearly see how critics of eternal security pervert the Scriptures to their own destruction.

Hebrews 3:6 and 3:14

“But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.”

Proponents of losing one’s salvation are guilty once again of taking Scripture out of context. Please consider Hebrews 3:14-19…

“For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

Carefully notice in verses 18 and 19 the words “believed not” and “unbelief.” Clearly, these Scriptures are speaking about false Christians who were never saved to begin with; not about believers losing eternal life. America’s churches are filled with phonies, who act religious, talk with spiritual lingo, and think they are saved; but they are on their way to hell in unbelief.

Many of the Jews in the wilderness died in unbelief and went to Hell…

“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it” (Hebrews 4:2).

So what does Hebrews 3:6 exactly mean? It means that a truly born-again person can never be unborn, a change has taken place that is irreversible, and one’s continued faith in the Lord is evidence of it. A true believer won’t deny the Lord at some later time in life. Continuing faith is evidence of salvation; not a means to maintaining it. One who denies Jesus Christ, claiming that they “used to believe,” is a liar. No one ever lost their salvation. Certainly, many people who once possessed the philosophy of Christianity, or the organization of religion, or the culture of Christianity, may turn away from it and deny the faith. They simply gave up their churchianity; but they never had Christianity. Most religious people today do NOT have the Truth of God’s Word; but rather, the traditions and philosophies of sinful men.

Hebrews chapter 3 is speaking about unsaved Jews who went to Hell, because they heard Moses preach the Gospel, but had no faith (Hebrews 4:2). This has nothing to do with Christians.

 

[look3467]

How are we cursed for sinning? Who curses us? If God has paid the price for sin and we are made blameless, why are we still cursed?

Surely, not God! For He saved s from eternal death.
Originally, we are all cursed to eternal death once we begin to eat of the tree of knowledge as in Adam all die. (Physical as well as spiritual)

In Adam, the second Adam, we are made alive spiritually, though the physical still dies.

Therefore, all that is physical, including the works of sin must die, for it says hat the wages of sin is death.(Physical death only for spiritual death Jesus came to eliminate)

So, what is left now is our own judgment. If we after being born again continue in the same sense as before, will continue to encounter this worlds judgment but more severely, because now we should know better.

And when we should know better, God chastens whom He loves, meaning that now as a child of God we will be dealt with in not only in vexation of conscience but also allowed that the world spank us, sort of speak.

So the saying, what we sow shall we reap is true, as in blessings if we continue to walk right with God and or consequences when we don’t.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

…Once again, we clearly see how critics of eternal security pervert the Scriptures to their own destruction…

…
Proponents of losing one’s salvation are guilty once again of taking Scripture out of context…>>>Fisher

Can you see in your own words in those two sentences a contradiction?

Seems to me that if either one above is not right, which is the third option?

Here you give the view of eternal security:…

… It means that a truly born-again person can never be unborn, a change has taken place that is irreversible, and one’s continued faith in the Lord is evidence of it…

And here you say the opposite:…Clearly, these Scriptures are speaking about false Christians who were never saved to begin with; not about believers losing eternal life…
as though

Can’t have it both ways.

Now I will give you in your own words via quote the real answer:

…“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it” (Hebrews 4:2)…

The object here is profit or in other words “rest”.

We can find rest from all our supposed righteous works in the righteous works of Christs as our own, for the purpose of eternal salvation.

But for our own profit, rest, we will ether profit from it or meet the consequences (Losses) as did the Israeli’s who never found their rest (promised land) but died short of reaching it.

Egypt,to us represents earthly bondage of which we are struggling to be freed from but can not do it by our selves, so the journey begins with Moses (Jesus) the deliverer.

He will be with us once we are born again and walking with Him through the trial period (The Journey through the world of wilderness) as we growth in strenght through it spiritually.

Profit if we continue to walk with Him, and or loss if we don’t, yet not all found the rest that the newborn ones did, who did enter into the promised land. (rest)

So what exactly does rest mean?

Rest is profiting from the works of God in Moses (Jesus) for as long as we walk with them, but all of them were taken out of Egypt, yet not all of them found the rest, for they continued to rely on this world instead of God.

Enduring till the end was Jesus’ task if He were to conquer eternal death for us, but our enduring till the end simply means that we can enjoy His rest and profit from it while we are going through the wilderness journey.

We have today what many did not have before Christ, and that is knowledge of the tree of life.
They could not reach for it because it was not made available as it is today for us.

Therefore, there is no excuse should we hear of it and not accept it. It would be the same as dying in the wilderness and not making it to the promised land. (rest)

You will notice that it took a rebirth to enter in? Moses found His rest in the promise, not realized because it was a promise, as did Joshua but t their death, achieved it.

The promise was realized at the resurrection of Jesus many years later, of which today, is reality.
Rest for our souls is, for us to profit from it, and not as a means to be condemned eternally.

That is what we need to come to understand if, we are truly want to enter into the promised land (heaven on earth) and continue to journey until life’s end.

The rebirth takes place while going through the journey in the wilderness world and not after, for if after, then we would have never had died first before entering.

The hope then is “now” of entering, for when we rest in the works of our deliverer (Jesus) we cease from our own.

When we do that, w are at liberty to worship Him in spirit and in truth with eternal life guaranteed.
Once saved always saved, but subject to loss of profit if we so desire it.

Peace>>>AJ