FOR ALL THE ONCE SAVE ALWAYS SAVE PEOPLE again

[Fisher]

Now I will give you in your own words via quote the real answer:

The object here is profit or in other words “rest”.

We can find rest from all our supposed righteous works in the righteous works of Christs as our own, for the purpose of eternal salvation.

To teach that men can lose salvation is to place the responsibility of salvation upon man’s self-righteousness, i.e., if I do something wrong than I can forfeit my salvation. Nothing could be further from the truth. When the prodigal son deliberately left home, and went into sin–carefully notice that the father didn’t disown him. The son was still loved and missed by his father. No matter what crimes the son may have committed, he was still a son. Do you think God is less righteous? Shame on those who teach that God casts out His children. It is true that, as Christians, we do sometimes walk away from God; but He is still faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1st John 1:9). There is no depth of sin to which a person can go, but that God will still forgive them if they SEEK it (Isaiah 1:18). What a wonderful Savior!

Jesus is my rest and for my profit He is my Savior my Rock!

The true believer is eternally secure in Jesus Christ. Deuteronomy 33:27 states, “The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms…” Nothing can cause us to fall from the grace of God’s salvation.

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” It is not our self-righteous good works that saves us; but rather, our faith in the Lord Jesus as the Christ, who shed His blood at Calvary to take away our sins (1st Peter 1:18-19). We are all sinners, guilty, under the condemnation of God’s Law (Romans 3:19); but when we place our complete trust upon the Savior, to forgive our sins, then we are declared justified… JUST-IF-ID never sinned. Romans 3:28, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” Galatians 3:26, “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.” How can anyone teach insecurity concerning salvation, when the Bible clearly states that we are saved WITHOUT WORKS? Man’s salvation is of God, regardless of good works or bad works!

Thye bible tells us that there will be tares placed there by the devil himself.

God does not LIE!

“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” — Acts 10:43

Ezekiel 33:12-13 states …

**“Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.” **

Did you read that? … “If he trust in his OWN righteousness.” This is the heart of the matter here. God is simply condemning self-righteousness. The New Testament states in Romans 10:3-4 …

“For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not **submitted themselves **unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”

1Cr 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

 

[look3467]

Fisher,
There is nothing that I disagree with your post, but would like to add that if God is a jealous God, then only His righteousness counts, and all of ours are as filthy rags.

The problem exists because mankind can not understand the depths of Gods love there by adding good works as merit towards gaining salvation.

For many, the fear of hell can a good person make, but then it is only superficial.

Only when the heart is changed can truth in spirit make.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[kalt]

Surely, not God! For He saved s from eternal death.
Originally, we are all cursed to eternal death once we begin to eat of the tree of knowledge as in Adam all die. (Physical as well as spiritual)

In Adam, the second Adam, we are made alive spiritually, though the physical still dies.

Therefore, all that is physical, including the works of sin must die, for it says hat the wages of sin is death.(Physical death only for spiritual death Jesus came to eliminate)

So, what is left now is our own judgment. If we after being born again continue in the same sense as before, will continue to encounter this worlds judgment but more severely, because now we should know better.

And when we should know better, God chastens whom He loves, meaning that now as a child of God we will be dealt with in not only in vexation of conscience but also allowed that the world spank us, sort of speak.

So the saying, what we sow shall we reap is true, as in blessings if we continue to walk right with God and or consequences when we don’t.

Peace>>>AJ

So we are cursed only by a guilty conscience (if the person has one) and civil authorities (if we commit a sin that is also a crime)?

And if we didn’t know better already (weren’t born again), God wouldn’t let the world spank us so severely?

And what of the people who aren’t born again but still have a guilty conscience because of what they did, and who receive that same sentence from the civil authorities as that given to a OSAS murderer?

Honestly, how does anything you’ve presented make sense?

 

[kalt]

“To teach that men can lose salvation is to place the responsibility of salvation upon man’s self-righteousness, i.e., if I do something wrong than I can forfeit my salvation. Nothing could be further from the truth. When the prodigal son deliberately left home, and went into sin–carefully notice that the father didn’t disown him. The son was still loved and missed by his father. No matter what crimes the son may have committed, he was still a son. Do you think God is less righteous? Shame on those who teach that God casts out His children.”

I think you should note that the son walked away from the father, and that the father did not cast out his son. The son returned repentant, and that father took him in.

The penalty for the son’s walking away from the father was seperation from the father. The reward for returning repentant was being taken in.

Seems simple to me.

 

[Bill_Pick]

To teach that men can lose salvation is to place the responsibility of salvation upon man’s self-righteousness, i.e., if I do something wrong than I can forfeit my salvation. Nothing could be further from the truth. When the prodigal son deliberately left home, and went into sin–carefully notice that the father didn’t disown him. The son was still loved and missed by his father. No matter what crimes the son may have committed, he was still a son. Do you think God is less righteous? Shame on those who teach that God casts out His children. It is true that, as Christians, we do sometimes walk away from God; but He is still faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1st John 1:9). There is no depth of sin to which a person can go, but that God will still forgive them if they SEEK it (Isaiah 1:18). What a wonderful Savior!

Jesus is my rest and for my profit He is my Savior my Rock!

The true believer is eternally secure in Jesus Christ. Deuteronomy 33:27 states, “The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms…” Nothing can cause us to fall from the grace of God’s salvation.

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” It is not our self-righteous good works that saves us; but rather, our faith in the Lord Jesus as the Christ, who shed His blood at Calvary to take away our sins (1st Peter 1:18-19). We are all sinners, guilty, under the condemnation of God’s Law (Romans 3:19); but when we place our complete trust upon the Savior, to forgive our sins, then we are declared justified… JUST-IF-ID never sinned. Romans 3:28, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” Galatians 3:26, “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.” How can anyone teach insecurity concerning salvation, when the Bible clearly states that we are saved WITHOUT WORKS? Man’s salvation is of God, regardless of good works or bad works!

Thye bible tells us that there will be tares placed there by the devil himself.

God does not LIE!

“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” — Acts 10:43

Ezekiel 33:12-13 states …

**“Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.” **

Did you read that? … “If he trust in his OWN righteousness.” This is the heart of the matter here. God is simply condemning self-righteousness. The New Testament states in Romans 10:3-4 …

“For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not **submitted themselves **unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”

1Cr 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

The false doctrine of “Once Saved, Always Saved” seems to have blossomed with Fundamentalist Christians although it’s origins date back to 16th century Calvinism. The perfect example of how this doctrine is false is Judas Iscariot. He believed in Jesus Christ, walked with Him, was one of the Twelve and was given the same powers from Him as the others. Yet what Christian believes that Judas Iscariot went to Heaven? According to this doctrine, I would say Fundamentalist Christians would have to believe Judas is in Heaven as he more than met the requirements of salvation according to this doctrine.
Another good example is Lucifer (Satan) - abided in Heaven, knew God Himself, lived with God Himself yet he was not “saved” when given the opportunity for he now resides in Hell as punishment for the sin of pride. This sin occurred after having known and accepted God.
In my opinion, this doctrine helps Satan greatly by instilling a false sense of security and self-confidence among Christians concerning their salvation. They think they can’t sin anymore and even if they do, no punishment will be due them as Christ paid for all our sins. This makes it much easier for Satan to tempt us with the sin of presumption.
How can we be assured of our own salvation if St. Paul wasn’t (1 Corinthians 9:27)?
Salvation is not a “one time” event, but an ongoing process until “the end” (Matthew 10:22; 24:13; Mark 13:13).

 

[Bookworm88]

The false doctrine of “Once Saved, Always Saved” seems to have blossomed with Fundamentalist Christians although it’s origins date back to 16th century Calvinism.

Well, it’s not like us OSAS people look back to the book of First Calvin for our support. We use the Bible to support our position, the same as Calvin did, so really I see the position as dating back to the Bible.

The perfect example of how this doctrine is false is Judas Iscariot. He believed in Jesus Christ, walked with Him, was one of the Twelve and was given the same powers from Him as the others. Yet what Christian believes that Judas Iscariot went to Heaven? According to this doctrine, I would say Fundamentalist Christians would have to believe Judas is in Heaven as he more than met the requirements of salvation according to this doctrine.

No, I don’t see Judas meeting the requirements for salvation. Do you have a particular Bible verse in mind which states that Judas believed? Sure, he followed Jesus from place to place and was one of the twelve, but that doesn’t automatically mean that he believed. The example of Judas is a good lesson that within groups of true believers there are going to be people who look like the believers, but who are themselves unsaved. Another Bible passage calls them “wolves in sheep’s clothing.” They look like sheep and act like sheep, even to the point of keeping commandments, but they are actually wolves and have never been saved.

Another good example is Lucifer (Satan) - abided in Heaven, knew God Himself, lived with God Himself yet he was not “saved” when given the opportunity for he now resides in Hell as punishment for the sin of pride. This sin occurred after having known and accepted God.

Are you actually comparing Satan to a saved person who then lost his salvation? I don’t see angels in the Bible ever even being offered salvation.

In my opinion, this doctrine helps Satan greatly by instilling a false sense of security and self-confidence among Christians concerning their salvation. They think they can’t sin anymore and even if they do, no punishment will be due them as Christ paid for all our sins. This makes it much easier for Satan to tempt us with the sin of presumption.

Well, in my opinion, Satan is tempting people with presumption when he gets them to think they can somehow work their way into heaven. That is far more presumptuous than believing that Jesus paid the full price for our sins.

How can we be assured of our own salvation if St. Paul wasn’t (1 Corinthians 9:27)?

I don’t see Paul’s desire to not be a castaway to be a lack of assurance about his salvation. What does verse 25 specifically say that Paul was striving for in this passage? He was striving for the mastery. Mastery over what? Was it mastery over spiritual death/separation from God? Christ already had won mastery over that by Christ’s death on the cross and resurrection from the dead. So what did Paul want mastery over? Notice the start of verse 27. “But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection.” He was striving for mastery over his body. He had a saved spirit which was living in a physical body, a physical body that was subject to temptation from the lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eyes, and the pride of life. He was making conscious decisions to exhibit mastery over temptation, and we know that all Christians face temptation, and sometimes Christains fail to withstand the temptations. But committing a sin does not make a person lose their salvation. Or maybe you think that it does. This is one thing that I am curious about in regards to the Catholic position. At what point exactly is the salvation lost and spiritual deadness has overtaken the person’s soul? Does the deadness wait two or three weeks to give the person time to repent beofre the soul is dead as it once was? I think Paul was more concerned about his usefulness to God than he was about losing his salvation. Paul himself was the one who wrote in Phillipians 1:6 “being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.” To me, that shows a confidence, not a lack of assurance.

Salvation is not a “one time” event, but an ongoing process until “the end” (Matthew 10:22; 24:13; Mark 13:13).

But there ARE “one time” event verses that deal with salvation, and so we cannot interpret the “process” verses in a way that contradicts the plain teaching of the “past tense” event verses. Once a person is saved, they engage in a process of maturity, of becoming more like Christ, but they MUST have the one time event in place first before this process of maturity can even start.

 

[look3467]

So we are cursed only by a guilty conscience (if the person has one) and civil authorities (if we commit a sin that is also a crime)?

Yes, to both! 1Jo 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
1Jo 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

Crimes against humanity are subject to punishment by humans.

And if we didn’t know better already (weren’t born again), God wouldn’t let the world spank us so severely?

The world does spank us whether we know God or not, that is a given, but to those who do know God, the born again ones, more is required.
Meaning that we should know better because of new knowledge of the evil of things.

And what of the people who aren’t born again but still have a guilty conscience because of what they did, and who receive that same sentence from the civil authorities as that given to a OSAS murderer?

There is no difference, because all of us are subject to the human laws. Was not Jesus subject to the High Priests condemnation and the Roman government? Jesus, was after all, God in human form.

Honestly, how does anything you’ve presented make sense?

Well it doesn’t, if one holds to whatever teachings one is raised with and close mined to those teachings.
But it does make a difference to them that can understand the two distinct conditions we are in after Jesus was resurrected.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

The false doctrine of “Once Saved, Always Saved” seems to have blossomed with Fundamentalist Christians although it’s origins date back to 16th century Calvinism. The perfect example of how this doctrine is false is Judas Iscariot. He believed in Jesus Christ, walked with Him, was one of the Twelve and was given the same powers from Him as the others. Yet what Christian believes that Judas Iscariot went to Heaven? According to this doctrine, I would say Fundamentalist Christians would have to believe Judas is in Heaven as he more than met the requirements of salvation according to this doctrine.
Another good example is Lucifer (Satan) - abided in Heaven, knew God Himself, lived with God Himself yet he was not “saved” when given the opportunity for he now resides in Hell as punishment for the sin of pride. This sin occurred after having known and accepted God.
In my opinion, this doctrine helps Satan greatly by instilling a false sense of security and self-confidence among Christians concerning their salvation. They think they can’t sin anymore and even if they do, no punishment will be due them as Christ paid for all our sins. This makes it much easier for Satan to tempt us with the sin of presumption.
How can we be assured of our own salvation if St. Paul wasn’t (1 Corinthians 9:27)?
Salvation is not a “one time” event, but an ongoing process until “the end” (Matthew 10:22; 24:13; Mark 13:13).

Bill,

You are only seeing one picture!

The other picture is like this in similitude: Judas represents the leader of the pack of the of the adherents to the Mosaic laws by delivering Jesus to the High Priest who in concert with him condemned Jesus for blasphemy. (Making Himself equal to God)

The Mosaic law stated that blasphemy was punishable by death.
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Mar 10:33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:

How could Jesus be delivered (Crucified)if Judas and the High Priests would have believed in Him?
Was it not prophesied so? Did God not blind the High Priest by the law?

Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Now, if the High priests were following the Mosaic law to the letter, would that not account them for righteousness to the law?

And if righteousness to the law would they not be forgiven?
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

You see, the picture not seen is of God purposely blinding the eyes from seeing Jesus in order for Jesus to be “offered” up as a lamb of sacrifice by none other than the people who were instructed in the work of sacrifices, the High Priests.

Can you see it? Judas and the High priests not really knowing what they do because they were only following what the law required?

Jesus had to be “offered” not only by the High Priests, but the Gentile world as well.

After all, was not His mission to save that which was lost?

If the “lost” consists of every human soul, then the Gentiles must be included with the Jews in salvation.

It’s a beautifully worked out picture of Gods love for His creation.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[reteeks21]

The false doctrine of “Once Saved, Always Saved” seems to have blossomed with Fundamentalist Christians although it’s origins date back to 16th century Calvinism. The perfect example of how this doctrine is false is Judas Iscariot. He believed in Jesus Christ, walked with Him, was one of the Twelve and was given the same powers from Him as the others. Yet what Christian believes that Judas Iscariot went to Heaven? According to this doctrine, I would say Fundamentalist Christians would have to believe Judas is in Heaven as he more than met the requirements of salvation according to this doctrine.
Another good example is Lucifer (Satan) - abided in Heaven, knew God Himself, lived with God Himself yet he was not “saved” when given the opportunity for he now resides in Hell as punishment for the sin of pride. This sin occurred after having known and accepted God.
In my opinion, this doctrine helps Satan greatly by instilling a false sense of security and self-confidence among Christians concerning their salvation. They think they can’t sin anymore and even if they do, no punishment will be due them as Christ paid for all our sins. This makes it much easier for Satan to tempt us with the sin of presumption.
How can we be assured of our own salvation if St. Paul wasn’t (1 Corinthians 9:27)?
Salvation is not a “one time” event, but an ongoing process until “the end” (Matthew 10:22; 24:13; Mark 13:13).

This is flat-out wrong! Saying things like this is dishonest. No person in their right mind focus on what you are accusing them of! We don’t think these things. You are twisting a doctrine to express your opinion about something. Those are out-right insults to those who believe in OSAS. We don’t believe that you can do what you want and be okay with Jesus. Get the facts straight before you spout off stuff.

 

[Bill_Pick]

This is flat-out wrong! Saying things like this is dishonest. No person in their right mind focus on what you are accusing them of! We don’t think these things. You are twisting a doctrine to express your opinion about something. Those are out-right insults to those who believe in OSAS. We don’t believe that you can do what you want and be okay with Jesus. Get the facts straight before you spout off stuff.

reteeks, Please do not get upset its only my opinion and I ,m sorry for talking about the false teaching of OSAS

 

[reteeks21]

reteeks, Please do not get upset its only my opinion and I ,m sorry for talking about the false teaching of OSAS

Nice parting shot there at the end, Bill. The idea of the pope promising crusaders heaven if they fought in the crusades was rather false, too. Well, that’s just my opinion.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Nice parting shot there at the end, Bill. The idea of the pope promising crusaders heaven if they fought in the crusades was rather false, too. Well, that’s just my opinion.

I never read that about the pope can you please tell me where I can find this info

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Nice parting shot there at the end, Bill. The idea of the pope promising crusaders heaven if they fought in the crusades was rather false, too. Well, that’s just my opinion.

**This is not true. You should be thanking the pope for the Crusades, otherwise you may be Muslim today. What you don’t study nor understand, you should have no opinion of it. **

 

[Bill_Pick]

This is flat-out wrong! Saying things like this is dishonest. No person in their right mind focus on what you are accusing them of! We don’t think these things. You are twisting a doctrine to express your opinion about something. Those are out-right insults to those who believe in OSAS. We don’t believe that you can do what you want and be okay with Jesus. Get the facts straight before you spout off stuff.

Well I got it from two Baptist after there step brother shot himself a few days later was telling me he was in heaven. so the sunday school teacher must be wrong,but i do not think the teacher will talk to me,you think

 

[reteeks21]

**This is not true. You should be thanking the pope for the Crusades, otherwise you may be Muslim today. What you don’t study nor understand, you should have no opinion of it. **

“Accordingly undertake this journey for the remission of your sins, with the assurance of the imperishable glory of the Kingdom of Heaven.”

You see, I learned that by reading about Urban II via Rober the Monk. Therefore I have studied and it’s pretty easy to understand. Sorry if you got your feelings hurt, but STUDY and an UNDERSTANDING of history makes it obvious, via Urban II’s own words, what he was promising.

And for your information I never passed judgement on the Crusades. I never criticized them. I was speaking to another person (i.e., not you) using some comparisons when I made my previous statements. While I don’t agree with Urban’s words I do agree with what he started. Don’t assume next time what I might be saying. Either read it or ask.

 

[reteeks21]

Well I got it from two Baptist after there step brother shot himself a few days later was telling me he was in heaven. so the sunday school teacher must be wrong,but i do not think the teacher will talk to me,you think

Someone killing themselves versus someone sinning like it is going out of style are two different things. Or maybe I am not understanding the inference you are making. Can you explain it better to me?

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

“Accordingly undertake this journey for the remission of your sins, with the assurance of the imperishable glory of the Kingdom of Heaven.”

You see, I learned that by reading about Urban II via Rober the Monk. Therefore I have studied and it’s pretty easy to understand. Sorry if you got your feelings hurt, but STUDY and an UNDERSTANDING of history makes it obvious, via Urban II’s own words, what he was promising.

And for your information I never passed judgement on the Crusades. I never criticized them. I was speaking to another person (i.e., not you) using some comparisons when I made my previous statements. While I don’t agree with Urban’s words I do agree with what he started. Don’t assume next time what I might be saying. Either read it or ask.

Since you know so much, tell me then how the Crusades started? Do you have the CORRECT story?

 

[reteeks21]

Since you know so much, tell me then how the Crusades started? Do you have the CORRECT story?

Yep. The Church wanted new trade routes via control of the Med., plus new land brought new ways of taxing for money, and controlling the Holy Land meant consolidating power…

In all actuality, Muslim agrression towards Constantinople in the east was growing exponentially. Constantinople’s emperor called for help, and the Western Church heeded the call. It started as a result of incredible Muslim agression. Was that correct, or do I get an F?

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Yep. The Church wanted new trade routes via control of the Med., plus new land brought new ways of taxing for money, and controlling the Holy Land meant consolidating power…

In all actuality, Muslim agrression towards Constantinople in the east was growing exponentially. Constantinople’s emperor called for help, and the Western Church heeded the call. It started as a result of incredible Muslim agression. Was that correct, or do I get an F?

Muslims started to invade the Byzantine empire, so the Emporer called for back up and the pope sent the rest of them to help. The defense of the Christian/Catholics was necessary to win against the Muslim. Good for them.

 

[reteeks21]

Muslims started to invade the Byzantine empire, so the Emporer called for back up and the pope sent the rest of them to help. The defense of the Christian/Catholics was necessary to win against the Muslim. Good for them.

That is exactly what I said. Did you not read everything I wrote? Defense of faith, though, does not require the slaughter of innocents. And, yes, that goes for all sides.