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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do. Don’t start the fight and you won’t be anhialated.
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reteeks21
Guest
Are you seriously defending the slaughter of innocents? How is that just doing “what you gotta do”? And when did Jews start the Crusades, and why did they deserve to be slaughtered? I never said the Crusades were wrong, but I did say, and I will say it again, the slaughter of innocents in the name of faith is evil. Christ would never condone such actions.
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DLClark
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Please read Romans 6. this chapeter spells out the issue in a biblical way.
Also, John 10:27-29 tells us that Jesus and God the Father both do the saving and the keeping. Are we stronger than Them to be able to undue what They promise to do for?
Also, John 10:27-29 tells us that Jesus and God the Father both do the saving and the keeping. Are we stronger than Them to be able to undue what They promise to do for?
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Bill_Pick
Guest
- The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the “saved” and the “unsaved.” 1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as many Protestants believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works? Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God’s grace during our lives. Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of “Once saved, always saved?” If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved. Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works). Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus’ teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ. Also, we don’t accept Christ; Jesus says “Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me.” We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works. Mark 10:21 - Jesus says sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. This means that our salvation depends upon our works. Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord’s will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know. Luke 14:14 – Jesus says we are repaid for the works we have done at the resurrection of the just. Our works lead to salvation. Luke 23:41 - some Protestants argue that Jesus gave salvation to the good thief even though the thief did not do any good works. However, the good thief did in fact do a good work, which was rebuking the bad thief when he and others were reviling Jesus. This was a “work” which justified the good thief before Jesus and gained His favor. Moreover, we don’t know if the good thief asked God for forgiveness, did works of penance and charity and was reconciled to God before he was crucified. Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God’s grace. 2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done in the body, not how much faith we had. 2 Cor. 9:6 – Paul says that he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully, in connection with God’s judgment. 2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation. Gal. 6:7-9 – whatever a man sows, he will reap. . Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy. 1 Tim. 6:18-19 – the rich are to be rich in good deeds so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed, that is, eternal life… 2 Tim. 4:14 – Alexander the coppersmith did Paul great harm, and Paul says the Lord will requite him for his deeds. Heb. 6:10 - – without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith. 1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives. Rev. 2:5 - Jesus tells the Ephesians they have fallen from love they used to have, and orders them to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior. Rev. 2:10 – Jesus tells the church in Smyrna to be faithful unto death, and He will give them the crown of life. This is the faith of obedience to His commandments. Rev. 2:19 - Jesus judges the works of the Thyatirans, and despises their tolerance of Jezebel, calling them to repentance. Rev. 2:23 - Jesus tells us He will give to each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works. Rev. 2:26 - Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are “once saved, always saved.” Rev. 3:2-5,8,15 – Jesus is judging our works from heaven, and these works bear upon our eternal salvation. If we conquer sin through faith and works, He will not blot our names out of the book of life. This means that works bear upon our salvation. Our “works” do not just deal with level of reward we will receive, but whether we will in fact be saved.
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look3467
Guest
What incentive is there for doing good works if salvation was free?
Would the answer possibly be, none what’s so ever?
If we say good works, to the end, are necessary for salvation, then it would mean salvation is not free, right?
Humanity is such that unless it is threatened, it will not try to conform or change its ways, true?
What if we say, “if you don’t do right, live right, confess your sins and or go to church every Sunday till you die, you will burn in hell” as an incentive, do you think that, that is good understanding of what is as a necessity?
In that case, what is the choice?
Would the answer possibly be, none what’s so ever?
If we say good works, to the end, are necessary for salvation, then it would mean salvation is not free, right?
Humanity is such that unless it is threatened, it will not try to conform or change its ways, true?
What if we say, “if you don’t do right, live right, confess your sins and or go to church every Sunday till you die, you will burn in hell” as an incentive, do you think that, that is good understanding of what is as a necessity?
In that case, what is the choice?
- I don’t want to go to hell so I better do right as required.
Or - I love God and desire nothing but to do right because He laid down His good works for mine so that I may have salvation.
Of the two choices, which one do you think God prefers? 1 or 2?
I have this understanding with my children, all six of them, that if they can’t come to love me because they desire it, then I don’t want it if they think it is a requirement.
Free will is independence to exercise love willingly, but first, it must be understood not as a requirement but as a desire generating from the depts. of appreciation for the love granted us in the state that we are in.
So, show me your good works by your faith in God as evidence of your love for God without the law, without any requirements, necessities, traditions and or church affiliations, and I will show you to be a true believer, one who is saved (always will be saved).
Even if you should fall, God’s grace is yet greater to again lift you up.
Blessings>>>AJ
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OneTrueCathApos
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For your information the Jews had NOTHING to do with the Crusades. It was between Muslim and Christian/Catholics. Jews WERE NOT SLAUGHTERED at the Crusades. Go do your history lessons.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
**Let me rephrase this:
From the time of Mohammed, Muslims had sought to conquer the Christian World. They did a pretty good job of it too. Muslim armies had taken all of North Africa, the Middle East, Asia Minor and most of Spain.
At some point what was left of the Christian World would have to defend itself or succumb to Islamic conquest.
It is true that many people were killed after the Crusades captured the city. But this must be understood in historical context. Many were ransomed or allowed to go free. As for your saying all this blood was shed, no historian accepts it as anything other than literary convention.
No pope EVER called a Crusade against the Jews. They strongly condemned attacks on the Jews.**
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Valke2
Guest
You’re kidding, right?
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OneTrueCathApos
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Sort of, my other post followed (but you knew that.) It was between Muslim and Christian. Don’t tell me the Jews were totally involved here because they weren’t. I’m not in the mood for any more “victimizing” on the part of the Jews. The Catholics were the victims in this case.
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Valke2
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I agree the Jews were not totally involved. In general, the crusaders found it easier to attack Jews in Europe than to travel all the way to Jerusalem to attack muslims. But the primary objective was directed against muslims. And while you may not be in the mood to hear any more “victiminzing” on the part of the Jews, the undeniable fact is that they were victimized by the Crusades.
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scooter469
Guest
I have a Baptist Friend of mine that said OSAS does not give them a license to continue to sin. He said that if someone truly confess, repent, and ask for forgiveness of their sins and if it is truly from the heart, then all is good. For God knows our hearts.
He said that a person who truly with all their heart asks for forgiveness, and try to not sin anymore, then they would not backslide because they are a new creature. The old nature is buried and the new nature to continue to repent.
So, he said that it does not mean that if he went and killed someone that he would be free to not ask for forgiveness. But he feels that no one would do a sort of thing if they truly believed with all their heart, and truly Loved Christ as he loved us…
I hope I explained it ok. He said it much better than I did.
He said that a person who truly with all their heart asks for forgiveness, and try to not sin anymore, then they would not backslide because they are a new creature. The old nature is buried and the new nature to continue to repent.
So, he said that it does not mean that if he went and killed someone that he would be free to not ask for forgiveness. But he feels that no one would do a sort of thing if they truly believed with all their heart, and truly Loved Christ as he loved us…
I hope I explained it ok. He said it much better than I did.
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reteeks21
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Ummm…I never said it was deliberate, but the fact remains that many were slaughtered. Many of them were caught up in it, and in the process killed during the sack of Jerusalem. And I never said a Pope called for a Crusade against them. And there is no denying that that Catholics (note that I said Catholics and not the Church) said and did some nasty things to Jews in Europe simply because they were Jews. I said, and I will say it again, that many Christian knights did some nasty stuff when they took Jerusalem, and historical fact proves it. You are looking over what I said and throwing out what you want to throw out so you can attempt to further an arguement. I never said any of things you are spouting off right now.
I know my history, and I don’t shy from it. If you really need to know, when I teach my history students about the Middle Ages and the Crusades I ALWAYS point out that Muslims started it, and that Muslim treatment of other faiths made Christian treatment of others, over the course of history, look like child’s play. And this is pointless. This thread has nothing to do with any of this stuff. Sorry to everyone for helping to derail it. I’ll work to get back on topic. Again, I apologize.
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Eternaly_Secure
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I dont have time to read all the posts on all the threads I visit, so people may have already given the same answer as me.
It is up to God when we are to die, not us and it would be self murder to take our own lives.
We are eternally secure(yes, I know I’ve spelt my user name wrong
) because Christ has done it all and there is not one thing that we can do to reach heaven. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9
We will all sin untill we are at home with the Lord because our flesh is fighting against our spirit, but we do not want to sin and there should be a huge change in a person after savation, if there is not then I would doubt a persons profession of salvation. There has only ever been one sinless person to walk this earth and that is the Lord Jesus Christ. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:23.
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OneTrueCathApos
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And how do you know that the Muslims weren’t the ones who murdered the Jews? Because they were. Furthermore, if you are teaching students about the Crusades, you should do it correctly.
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OneTrueCathApos
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But the Crusades WERE NOT about the Jews. It was about the CATHOLIC FAITH and the Muslim. If the Jews were in the way, the Muslim were the ones who murdered, not the Christian. All in all, there was murder and that doesn’t make it right, but I thank God AND THE POPE for the Crusades.
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reteeks21
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I never said that they didn’t murder Jews. But it is historical fact that when the Crusaders took Jerusalem that some of them murdered indiscriminantly, and Jews were targeted. You are one more rude and arrogant human being. You have no idea what credentials I have to teach, and regardless of what you think innocent people were murdered by both sides, and some Christians were guilty of it. To try and convince yourself otherwise is pure ignorance. Have you not read the other things I wrote? Have you not bothered to see that I have agreed with you on major issues, but the only thing you have a problem with is reality. Again, I’m done with you. It has nothing to do with the topic.
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Peter_J
Guest
I can quite relate to not-reading-all-the-posts-on-a-thread. In fact, a lot of posts on a lot of threads don’t even show up on my screen, due to the “ignore list” feature.I dont have time to read all the posts on all the threads I visit, so people may have already given the same answer as me.
However, it seems like my strategy is just the opposite of yours. What I mean is, the post you quoted (about OSAS and killing oneself) is just the sort of post that I would want to avoid, whereas you seem to be looking for that sort of post to read and respond to.
So I’m curious, what sort of post do you try to avoid? The ones that express love for fellow Christians?
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Valke2
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Jewish women had their bellys ripped open, children torn from their womb, babies murdered on the sword. villiages were put to fire and jews were murdered, forced to convert, raped and robbed. All by Crusaders, many of which just didn’t have the patience to wait until they got to Jerusalem. I am talking about European Jews. Not the Jews who were murdered in Jerusalem.
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