For any CAF posters who have attended prayers/services in a mosque:

[estesbob]

That’s exactly what they want! They want to take us back to live by the barbaric, ignorant and superstitious beliefs of the Arab bedouins of the 7th century and bring back all the horrors of hand cuttings, beheadings, flogging and stonings, pedophilia and so on.

Vickie

Have you had a lot of contact with Muslims? I ask this because probably 10 % of my clientele are Muslims and I’ve never run into any one of them that does love our country as much as you do.

 

[Jay53]

Sister Amy,

Here is my next question from the speeches (I haven’t read Part II, yet, probably won’t get a chance until after Christmas.)

Jihad in Islam, I

The struggle against the disbelievers and the hypocrites has four levels, which are: In the heart, the tongue, one’s wealth and one’s soul. When struggling with the disbelievers, more than likely, **we **will use our hands or physical strength. On the other hand, when struggling against the hypocrites, we will make jihad by using our tongue to preach to them. These two types of Jihad are called Fard Kifayah , **which basically means if some Muslims successfully perform these two types of jihad, then it will no longer be obligatory for other Muslims to perform it. ****Otherwise, it remains obligatory upon all Muslims until the goal of Jihad is achieved.” **

Why does it say “more than likely we will use our hands or physical strength”? To do what?
My take on this passage is that Muslims are called to fight physically with disbelievers and preach to them until they convert and that if they are successful through violence and preaching (and basically install Islamic government) then Jihad is achieved and other and future Muslims will no longer have to try to convert us.

Otherwise, what is the goal of Jihad as bolded in the last sentence above and how does one know if it has been achieved?

I completely understand the first part of the speech regarding the personal struggle and avoiding the whisperings of Satan. It’s this last part that has me confused.

I apologize in advance if these questions are answered in Part II of the speech as I have not have time to read that one yet. If they are, please just let me know and after Christmas I’ll take a look at it.

Thank you for your help!

 

[Jay53]

I was looking up “Fard Kifayah” (from my previous post about jihad) for a better understanding of the term and found this:

And in Al-Minhaj of Imam Nawawi of the Shafi’i school:

‘Jihad during the time of the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) was a fard kifayah, though it is also alleged that it was a fard ‘ayn. Since then, there are two conditions relative to the unbelievers:

If they remain in their own territories, then jihad is not an obligation on all Muslims. As long as a sufficient number of Muslims undertake it, the remainder are released from this duty.

If they invade one of our territories, its population are obliged to repel them with all their force. If fighting is possible then fighting becomes an obligation. Every slave, poor person, son and debtor must prepare for war, even though they may not have permission…"

And in Al-Mughni of Ibn Qudama of the Hanbali school, who said:

‘Jihad is a fard kifayah. If a group of people engage in it, the remainder are released. It becomes a fard ‘ayn under three conditions:

If two armies meet and two lines of soldiers confront one another, those present are forbidden to leave the battlefield, and it becomes a fard ‘ayn on each one to remain at his station.

If the unbelievers attack a territory, it is a fard ‘ayn on its population to fight and repel them.

If the Imam calls a group of people to arms, then they must join his military forces. And he should at least announce Jihad once every year.’

Can anyone comment on this? And what is meant by their own territories - is there a certain percentage of Muslims in an area that they can then claim as their own and then declare Jihad on non-Muslims? And what’s with the call to jihad once every year?

 

[LutheranDK]

Please…I doubt you’d call ANYTHING anti-Israeli, even if the imams use Iran’s thug-in-chiefs rhetoric and vocabulary. This post suggests as much… “He DID say “Throw the Jews back into the sea!”, but I don’t think that’s anti-Israeli…”

The existance of the state of Israel, a viable, strong Jewish state, is the only assurance that the nightmare of the Holocaust never happens again.And there are those of us who supports Israel in its endeavors to protect itself. Israel is the victim; the Arab states and terrorist organizations are the agressors. Fact!

 

[Jay53]

OK, here’s the next speech I read that has given me concerns. Some of these speeches do preach peaceful living for Muslims, however I am finding statements here and there that are giving me concern. Can anyone clarify this for me:
(For anyone not having read the whole thread, these are speeches from the sheikh at Sister Amy’s mosque.)

The Islamic Khilafah

What does Islamic Khilafah mean?
The Islamic Khilafah is the way of ruling the Islamic Ummah after the death of the prophet (S.A.W.). The Islamic Khilafah can be rightly guided, i.e., it is according to the prophet’s method. The rightly-guided Islamic Khilafah was established at the times of the rightly-guided Khalifahs after the prophet (S.A.W.) (Abu Bakr, Omar, Othman, Ali, and another Khalifah who is frequently mentioned among the rightly-guided Khalifahs; Omar Bin Abdul-Aziz) (R.A.) These Khalifahs were rightly called “the rightly-guided Khalifahs” because one of their unique situation was that they were chosen by the Ummah to rule.

What are the tasks and duties of the Khalifah?

Imam Al-Mawardi said: " Khalifah must to fulfil ten duties in the affairs of the Ummah. (If we know these ten duties, we will realize how important his presence is and how dangerous his absence is).
1- Protect the Deen and the consensus of all the Salaf generation of this Ummah.
2- Implement the rules amongst those who are in conflict and removing the conflict so Justice will prevail
3- Protect the internal affairs of the Ummah.
4- Implement the punishment system to deter the criminals from attacking the rights of other people.
5- Beef up the borders with deterring force so that no Muslim or non-Muslim living amongst the Muslims is harmed.
6- Jihad fighting against those who reject Islam until they accept Islam or live under the rules of Islam.
7- Collect Zakat and charities and another finance revenues.
8- Decide the amount of salaries to who works for the state with out over spending or stinginess and give the salaries on the due time.
9- Compensate the employees, and appointing the right people entrusted with jobs or with financial resources.
10- To look after the affairs of the Muslim Ummah by himself, and not to appoint someone else to do it for him because he is to busy enjoying this life or worshipping Allah (S.W.T.). {Book Al-Ahkamus-Sltanyyah}

#6 is obviously the one that gives me concern. What is the peaceful interpretation of this duty?

 

[Jay53]

Lest anyone think that I am simply looking for things to complain about or question in these speeches, I will point out that some of them are completely innocuous. I just read the speech entitled: Belonging to Islam and The Islamic Identity. It simply iterates that modern traditions should not be added to Islam particularly if they are harmful. Basically I understood it to mean that if a tradition is not held in the Quran or sunnah, then it is not to be added to Islam. If this is not the correct interpretation, please let me know. Thank you.

 

[Jay53]

OK, after my post #25, I came across a future speech entitled “The Fall of Islamic Khalifah”. Perhaps this speech will shed some light on the questions I had with regard to the earlier speech. ???

I read the next speech indicated above. The only thing I got out of that is that possibly there isn’t a current Khalifah ???, but that Muslims expect Allah to let them know who the next one will be. It still doesn’t explain the question I had regarding the duty for “Jihad fighting against those who reject Islam until they accept Islam or live under the rules of Islam.”

When we talk about the fall of Islamic Khilafah and the end of the Islamic State, we talk about one of the most important issues. The end of Khilafah was and still is the most devastating crises that happened to the Muslim Ummah in the contemporary age. The Muslim Ummah still suffers from this crises and will continue to suffer until the Muslim Ummah returns to its glory and the Islamic Khilafah as the prophet (S.A.W.) promised. He (S.A.W.) said: “The prophet-hood will last as long as Allah (S.W.T.) is willing, then he will lift it. Then, a rightly guided Khilafah will be according to the prophet’s way and will last as long as Allah is willing, then Allah will lift it. Then, there will be a hereditary power that will last as long as Allah is willing, then Allah will lift it. Then, there will be dictatorships that will last as long as Allah is willing, then Allah will lift it. Then, there will be a Khilafah according to the prophet’s way. The prophet, then fell silent.” {Authentic Hadith reported by Imams Ahmad, Al-Bazar and At-Tabrani.}

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable about Islam can clarify this point for me. Thank you.

 

[Feanor]

Sister Amy,

I am a Catholic. Please know that the vast, vast majority of Catholics are not going around thinking about how bad Islam is- especially our Pope Benedict.

This attitude is much more common among Protestants, especially fundamentalist ones. Don’t give mean people your time if you feel confident in your faith. I am perplexed at the amount of anti-Islam that see on this forum.

In any case God bless you

 

[Jay53]

I have a quick question from this speech:

The Enemy of Man

(Friday speech delivered by Imam Mohamed Baianonie at the Islamic Center of Raleigh, NC on August 28, 1998)

Satan’s Allies: In the group of Satan stand all his allies, from the humans who are all those that rebelled against Allah’s rules, the divine way of life regardless of their ways, their methodologies, their banners, or their names.

So the result of that is that mankind became two divided groups and parties:

One group that allies themselves with Allah (S.W.T.) and obey Him and guide their life with His guidance and His rules and legislation, and execute His righteous plans to benefit the humanity. And another group that allies themselves with Satan and obey him and execute his corrupted plans.

It is not necessary that the group and party of Satan to declare and announce their allegiance to Satan. In fact, many of them, curse him, but in reality they are his allies and from his group. This is because they are guided with his ways, and every way that conflicts with what came from Allah (S.W.T.) is pleasing to Satan. He, Satan, will adopt it and bless those who are adopting it because his real goal is to destroy mankind. And every conflict with the guidance of Allah (S.W.T.) is definitely a partial or total destruction for mankind.

Allah (S.W.T.) knows that Satan’s allies and his group will always be in conflict with Allah’s allies; this conflict starts small and simple, then continues and worsens and is not restricted to verbal confrontation, but it surpasses it to a serious planning and plotting with deceit till it reaches physical fighting. Allah (S.W.T.) says in surat An-Nisa’, (verse 76), what can be translated as, “Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of at-taghut (Satan). So fight you against the allies of Satan; Indeed, the plot of Satan is weak.”

And Allah (S.W.T.) declare the goal and the objective of this fighting. He says in surat Al-Anfal, (verse 39), what can be translated as, "And fight them until there is no more fetnah and the deen (submission) will all be for Allah alone…"

What is a “fetnah” as bolded in the last sentence? I tried to look it up, but it only seemed to come up as a female name ??? Does anyone who knows arabic know what that means?

(The rest of this speech seems to indicate that anyone who doesn’t believe in Allah is Satan’s ally and should be fought. Although I’m not sure if it has to be the Islamic view of Allah with their rules and legislation. ???)

 

[Jay53]

Bump

I would welcome any help from other Muslim posters if they are able to comment on these speeches or help me with my questions. (Unless that would be a forum faux pas and would be offensive to Sister Amy since they are from her mosque. No disrespect is intended.) Thank you.

 

[Jay53]

Bump again

I’m beginning to feel ignored here. Just kidding!

 

[GraceDK]

Sister Amy…
and everyone else who would like to comment.

youtube.com/watch?v=Z7_LfghKTrk

This is a sermon from a “moderate” muslim imam.
Its clearly a message of violence and hatred.

 

[Jay53]

Bump again

(Is there a limit to how many times I can bump a thread? )


Still waiting for answers to posts #22, 23, 25, 29 or any others someone wants to comment on.

Thank you.

 

[Jay53]

In all fairness, I should also point out that I did read Part II, of the speech on Jihad. It seemed to be fair and reasonable. However, according to that speech, there should be no jihads going on right now. So, according to the rules and explanations presented for the rules of Jihad, I’m not sure what all the suicide bombings in the Middle East are about and what those individuals are fighting for. ??? (and I’m sure that is a topic for another thread.)

I would still like answers to my questions about the other speeches I’ve read so far, if possible.

Thank you.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Have you EVER heard an anti-Christian/Jewish/Hindu/Buddhist etc. or anti-American/Israeli/European/Asian etc. message? If so, who gave the message, what was the nature/content of the message and how did the “congregation” respond?

Thank you.

I didn’t think non Muslims were allowed at worship services.

 

[Jay53]

I didn’t think non Muslims were allowed at worship services.

I don’t know, but Sister Amy very graciously invited me to attend a service at a mosque and I am DEFINATELY Non-Muslim.

 

[katy_kt]

I don’t know, but Sister Amy very graciously invited me to attend a service at a mosque and I am DEFINATELY Non-Muslim.

Both Chestertonrules and Sister Amy are right. You can not enter the prayer area of the mosque, but you can be seated elsewhere, from where you can hear the sermons and prayer and might also be able to see it.

 

[katy_kt]

Have you EVER heard an anti-Christian/Jewish/Hindu/Buddhist etc. or anti-American/Israeli/European/Asian etc. message? If so, who gave the message, what was the nature/content of the message and how did the “congregation” respond?

Thank you.

In the mosques in the US, I haven’t heard any. But once in an Arab country, the preacher for the Friday prayers gave a preach that was anti-Jewish. I didn’t understand it myself since it was in Arabic, but someone (Non-Muslim) who understood Arabic commented on it. The congregation seems to no have any response to it, they came out of the mosque as usual.

 

[dolphinlove]

We have an imam here in Australia who has shot himself in the foot many times!
He claims he has been ‘misinterpreted’.
Its quite comical actually, if I had a dollar everytime he made this claim, id be living the life of Riley!!
Here is some of his comments:

1988 speech regarding Jews

"The Jews' struggle with humanity is as old as history itself; the present continuing struggle with the Islam nation is a natural continuation of the Jews' enmity towards the human race as a whole. Judaism controls the world by...secret movements as the destructive doctrines and groups, such as communism, libertarianism, Free Masons, Baha'ism, the Rotary clubs, the nationalistic and racist doctrines. The Jews try to control the world through sex, then sexual perversion, then the promotion of espionage, treason, and economic hoarding."

Hilaly has not since apologised nor retracted his comments, in which he accused Jews of “causing all wars.”

**February 2004 sermon
**
In February 2004 Hilaly gave a sermon at a mosque in Sidon, Lebanon, whilst overseas the text of which was translated by the Australian Embassy in Beirut. It appeared to show him supporting terrorist attacks. In his sermon, Hilaly said:

Sons of Islam, there is a war of infidels taking place everywhere. The true man is the boy who opposes Israeli tanks with strength and faith. The boy who, despite his mother's objections, goes out to war to become a martyr like his elder brother. The boy who tells his mother: 'Oh mother, don't cry for me if I die. Oh mother, Jihad has been imposed on me and I want to become a martyr'."

September 11 is God's work against oppressors. Some of the things that happen in the world cannot be explained; a civilian airplane whose secrets cannot be explained if we ask its pilot who reached his objective without error, who led your steps? Or if we ask the giant that fell, who humiliated you? Or if we ask the President, who made you cry? God is the answer.
—Taj El-Din Hilaly

In his speech, he also predicted that Muslims would control the White House and appeared to support Hezbollah. The Australian Federal Police declined to investigate his activities overseas.

2006 Holocaust denial

In July 2006 Hilaly was sacked from Prime Minister of Australia John Howard’s Muslim Community Reference Group following comments he made in which he denied the Holocaust, calling it a “Zionist lie”. He also referred to Israel as a “cancer”. This prompted calls for legal action to be pursued against him, in a country which has the highest per-capita number of Holocaust survivors in the world outside Israel.

October 2006 sermon

Comments concerning dress and rape

In October 2006, Hilaly delivered a Ramadan sermon in Arabic in which he made statements concerning female clothing which proved highly controversial. The key part of these was:

If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred."
—Taj El-Din Hilaly

He also said, “in the state of zina, the responsibility falls 90 per cent of the time on the woman. Why? Because she possesses the weapon of enticement (igraa).” Hilaly later claimed that he had intended to suggest that “if a woman who shows herself off, she is to blame…but a man should be able to control himself.” He also contended that his references to the prison sentence of Bilal Skaf, the leader of a group of Lebanese Australians who committed gang rapes in Sydney in 2000, in which he said that women would “sway suggestively” before men “and then you get a judge without mercy (rahma) and gives you 65 years”, were aimed at illustrating the need for harsh sanctions for rape.

January 2007 television comments

On 8 January 2007 the Hilaly appeared on an Egyptian television program. He made a number of comments that sparked criticism in Australia, including the following:

* British and Irish settlers arrived in Australia as convicts. Muslims paid for their own tickets, and so have more right to Australia
* Prison sentences handed down to Lebanese Australian Muslims for the Sydney gang rapes were excessive and influenced by the September 11, 2001 attacks in the U.S.
* Western people, especially the English race, are the biggest liars and oppressors.

Hilaly also condemned the level of rights awarded to homosexuals in Australia, stating “We have Christian churches which allow people of the same gender to marry” and “I understand the mentality of the West and especially the Australian mentality and I understand that the Australian law guarantees freedoms to the point of insanity.”

Now this is made from a now retired mufti in Australia, where, by the way, we are standing up to the ‘islamic demands’
Can you imagine what is being said in islamic countries?

Now, do our islamic friends here condemn what this retired mufti have to say?