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Peter_J
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That is precisely what was not declared at Vatican I.
For any Orthodox Converts: Why did you leave the Catholic Church for the Orthodox Church?
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StMarina303ad
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They do what Tradition taught us to do - they take the issue to a priest. If the priest can’t settle the matter, it goes before the Bishop. If the Bishop can’t settle the matter, it goes before the Patriarch. If the Patriarch can’t settle the matter then a Council or Synod is called and the matter is settled.
This is exactly what happened in Acts 15 when there was a dispute. It was handled by council and St. James the Apostle and leader of the Orthodox Church in Jeruselem presided over the Council and St. James issued the decrees of the council after the council came to an agreement on the matter. It was not settled by one person and not by St. Peter, he was simple one of many who spoke at the council - as is what happens in councils.
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vocatio
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That’s ultimately why I came to realize the primacy of the Bishop of Rome… too many popes…and there are lots of bickering from what I gather. Initially I thought that the Orhtodox were much like Protestant churches dealing with hierarchy. Then I discovered the truth. They have the same hierarchy with a twist…several Popes.
The priests I’ve spoken with were not nearly as charitable to me as ours either… I felt like they were very harsh to me for who I was in their mind - Catholic…I didn’t even think I was Catholic at that time and nearly snapped their heads off for insulting me like that… Had they reserved the bigotry statments I may have eventually continued. We had enough of that in our previous protestant faith. We’re sick of bigotry.
After digging deeper and deeper I came to believe Orhtodox were simlar to folks like Martin Luther and justified the split. I’m still digging and digging. But I’ve accepted the primacy of the Bishop of Rome now and can’t seem to let it go now. Even the Immaculate Conception makes sense now, but I understand to some degree why the Orhtodox don’t like it. In spite of all of this, I still beleive the Latin Church leadership is guilty of high crimes for having done many of the things they did back then. Shame on us…both sides of that disagreement.
There is so much division in the world. Will it ever stop? I wish you well. But I also feel like some of you failed to dig deep in history from the Catholic side. You just threw out the baby with the bath water and picked him/her up off the ground and refilled the bathtub with the same water…maybe cleaner water. But the point is that even many Catholics don’t seem to understand our own faith and bail before they learn. I did once too.
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srferdave
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This sounds reasonable, but what if they solve the issue at the priest. The priest, being fallible, makes an error. The issue is thus left in error.
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StMarina303ad
Guest
It’s sad that you have such a complete misunderstanding.
- There is no “bickering” among the Orthodox Patriarchs.
- The Protestant Churches are nothing like the Orthodox Church because the Protestant Churches all find their roots in the Roman Catholic Church *500 years after *Rome left the Orthodox Church.
- Of course there would be Orthodox priests who would consider any Protestant a Catholic…because of what I said above all the Protestant Churches come from the Catholic Church. 30,000+ Protestant Churches are a Catholic phenomion. There is no equalivent Orthodox phenomion - there are no churches which the Orthodox Church gave birth to like the Catholics gave birth to Protestantism
- Since when did good manners determine whether or not a Churches teaching is true? I apologize that you spoke with an Orthodox priest who wasn’t charitable to you. That is like accusing the Catholic Churches teachings as untrue because some Catholic Priest molested boys - it is shameful and the Catholic Churches teachings are not true; however, it has nothing to do with the molestations done by certain (very few) Catholic priests
- By all means accept the primacy of Rome the Orthodox do that too, what we do not accept is the supremacy of Rome which is what the Catholic Church now teaches.
- Immaculate Conception is not believed in Orthodoxy because the Orthodox still hold the true teaching in regards to Original Sin. Everyone born into this world, since Adam and Eve, have been born into a sinful world; however, the Orthodox, just as the Early Church, have never taught or believed that anyone born into this sinful world is guilty of Adam & Eve’s sin. All of us, except Jesus and Mary, have sinned. Mary is Immaculate - not because of some special grace God gave her and not to us, to because she alone is the only human (Jesus has both a Divine and a Human Nature) that chose not to sin. She was tempted just like Jesus was - she could have sinned but she chose not to. The very thing that proves that she was affected by Original Sin as we all are is the fact that Tradition tells us the exact details of the end of her life…she died. On the 3rd day when St. Thomas had her grave opened so he could venerate her, they discovered that Jesus had taken her bodily into heaven. Death is the consequence for Original Sin - Mary did die.
- Only the Orthodox Church still maintains the fulness of True. As the Catholics broke away from the Church, they added to the original deposit of faith as the Protestants broke away from the Catholic Church, they removed from the original deposit of faith.
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StMarina303ad
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Your example fits the Catholic Church - since it is rare that an issue is taken to the Pope of Rome and when done so, is never done directly. Two people have a disagreement in the Catholic Church, it’s taken to the priest first and if resolved there, the priest being fallible, makes an error then the issue would be left in error.
We know that the Roman Pope is fallible because he has made fallible statements on issues of faith and morals:
False Teachings:
Immaculate Conception
Infallibility of the Roman Pope
Teaching which Popes have made ex cathedra statements in direction contradiction of each other:
Filioque
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srferdave
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But all our answers are in the Catechism. If there comes something that is not found in there then Priests do not have the authority to make there own conclusion. If a Priest does, then yes, the Priest could be in error. In Orthodox it sounds like if this situation arises then the Priest will not be in error.
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vocatio
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Your comments only make you look even more like a Protestant faith. It’s the same ole same ole. Not to bust your chops…but your on a Catholic website aren’t you…last time I checked that is. Go find an Orhtodox site and chat it out with them. To us, faithful Catholics, you look foolish…at least to me. People like you are what make us Catholics look so foolish. It’s by your poor example that we continue to end up bickering over this kind of stuff. Another anomoly I’ve noticed about Orhtodox is where the majority of the American ones come from that proselytze…us. They are converts from usually fundamentalist groups. I know a few myself.
But just a gentle reminder, You’re on a Catholic website dedicated to converse with all faiths to help them understand what Catholics believe. You do NOT fit that mold apparently. Apparently you have all the answers.
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srferdave
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I am Catholic. But I believe this site should be for ALL people. Catholics and Non-Catholics. To completely understand the Catholic faith we have to know what others believe and why they believe it. I don’t feel like we are bickering. I was simply asking people of other faith about what they believe and why they believe it. I feel this has been a very friendly conversation. The Truth will be found by those whose hearts who are open to it. I have to trust that God will not let me stray from the Truth if I honestly seek it.
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LoveofGod
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Discussions like these on this site have been very helpful to me to understand where the Church of Rome is different than all the other apostolically aligned churches. Please continue. It is very healthy discussion.
What I do find most enlightening is the understanding on Authority. Where men try to usurp the authority of God, divisions occur. As long as Orthodox and Roman catholics agree that The Holy Spirit is our Authority and look to no earthly pope to settle our understanding of our Faith, we understand one another to be of the same spirit of unity in Christ. The problem happens when any Bishop (whether it be of papal title or not), begins to define doctrinal understanding apart from the united testimony of all faithful Christian catholic and Orthodox Churches everywhere. Orthodox history has had bishops (i.e. Arius) who tried to make themselves higher than the authority of the apostles. Whenever that happens, The Holy Spirit leads united godly men of faith to get together (i.e. ecumenical councils) and speak with One Voice under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. No patriarch (constantinople, alexandria, Rome, Antioch, etc.) can become the one infallible authority over the Church or we would have not needed Holy Ecumenical councils to agree what our Apostolic Doctrine had taught us from the beginning. All the people would have had to do was go to one patriarch and he would have excommunicated the other bishop, then all would have been settled.
:angel1: All of Church history disagrees with the notion of earthly authority that overrides the united miraculous work of The Holy Spirit within The One universal catholic and Orthodox Church.
It is sad when we read of one bishop (i.e. Rome) excommunicating another Bishop under the auspices of supreme power over God’s One Catholic Body of Christ. To be united, we all must once again be humble to the call of God The Holy Spirit and serve one another in Love. None of us should seek to be above another or rule over another as gentiles do, but rather can have patriarchs and bishops and priests who are true to the unchanging Apostolic Faith, to govern various jurisdictions under the guidance of God. As our brother in Christ, Saint Ignatius, taught us, it was not any one pope that overrode all other bishops, but rather a Bishop that was true to our Apostolic Doctrine, who was to be called of God to lead the Church in humble Authority under Christ and to God’s Body. Earthly authoritarian structures that attempt to override the United voice of God in the catholic and Orthodox Church should not be allowed to redefine our Faith away from our Apostolic Tradition.
Never should a faithful believer think that anyone is to obey man when he is out of step with the original guidance of God The Holy Spirit to the One Church, be it an authority in Constantinople, Antioch, Greece, Rome, Russia,etc. We always are called to obey God’s One Voice to the One worldwide Church above any one man’s voice (Acts 4 and 5).
Divisiveness is horrifyingly against Christ’s call for us to be One as The Father and The Son are ONE. I truly hope that our brothers from Rome, Antioch, Constantinople, India, Alexandria, Russia, Serbia, and all over the world can humbly abide by Christ’s Unity and allow The Holy Spirit to guide our One Church united with Bishops obeying their calling, and that once again we would all agree that no Bishop can ever try to become supreme ruler over all other Bishops in matters of Faith and Apostolic Doctrine.
humbly in Christ,
Anthony
What I do find most enlightening is the understanding on Authority. Where men try to usurp the authority of God, divisions occur. As long as Orthodox and Roman catholics agree that The Holy Spirit is our Authority and look to no earthly pope to settle our understanding of our Faith, we understand one another to be of the same spirit of unity in Christ. The problem happens when any Bishop (whether it be of papal title or not), begins to define doctrinal understanding apart from the united testimony of all faithful Christian catholic and Orthodox Churches everywhere. Orthodox history has had bishops (i.e. Arius) who tried to make themselves higher than the authority of the apostles. Whenever that happens, The Holy Spirit leads united godly men of faith to get together (i.e. ecumenical councils) and speak with One Voice under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. No patriarch (constantinople, alexandria, Rome, Antioch, etc.) can become the one infallible authority over the Church or we would have not needed Holy Ecumenical councils to agree what our Apostolic Doctrine had taught us from the beginning. All the people would have had to do was go to one patriarch and he would have excommunicated the other bishop, then all would have been settled.
:angel1: All of Church history disagrees with the notion of earthly authority that overrides the united miraculous work of The Holy Spirit within The One universal catholic and Orthodox Church.
It is sad when we read of one bishop (i.e. Rome) excommunicating another Bishop under the auspices of supreme power over God’s One Catholic Body of Christ. To be united, we all must once again be humble to the call of God The Holy Spirit and serve one another in Love. None of us should seek to be above another or rule over another as gentiles do, but rather can have patriarchs and bishops and priests who are true to the unchanging Apostolic Faith, to govern various jurisdictions under the guidance of God. As our brother in Christ, Saint Ignatius, taught us, it was not any one pope that overrode all other bishops, but rather a Bishop that was true to our Apostolic Doctrine, who was to be called of God to lead the Church in humble Authority under Christ and to God’s Body. Earthly authoritarian structures that attempt to override the United voice of God in the catholic and Orthodox Church should not be allowed to redefine our Faith away from our Apostolic Tradition.
Never should a faithful believer think that anyone is to obey man when he is out of step with the original guidance of God The Holy Spirit to the One Church, be it an authority in Constantinople, Antioch, Greece, Rome, Russia,etc. We always are called to obey God’s One Voice to the One worldwide Church above any one man’s voice (Acts 4 and 5).
Divisiveness is horrifyingly against Christ’s call for us to be One as The Father and The Son are ONE. I truly hope that our brothers from Rome, Antioch, Constantinople, India, Alexandria, Russia, Serbia, and all over the world can humbly abide by Christ’s Unity and allow The Holy Spirit to guide our One Church united with Bishops obeying their calling, and that once again we would all agree that no Bishop can ever try to become supreme ruler over all other Bishops in matters of Faith and Apostolic Doctrine.
humbly in Christ,
Anthony
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StMarina303ad
Guest
I do go on OrthodoXCircle.com and chat with fellow Orthodox; however; I have found some Orthodox Christians here on the Non-Catholic Forum of Catholic Answers.
I am on the Non-Catholic Forum. If you are a Catholic, then why are you on the Non-Catholic Forum of Catholic Answers?
I have created this thread asking why other Orthodox have converted to Orthodoxy from the Catholic Church. So I’m not sure why you are here…perhaps out of curiosity? At any rate, others have come to this thread to ask questions about the Orthodox Faith/Beliefs it would be very rude of us not to answer the questions and address those issues. Just as I am answering yours at this moment.
I am on my way to Church for Evening Prayers so I will not be posting again this evening. I will pray for you.
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Peter_J
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Peter_J
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Sounds to me like a classic case of denial. I, as a Catholic, am willing to admit that there’s “bickering” among Catholic hierarchs (not much, mind you, but enough that I couldn’t honestly say that there’s no “bickering” among Catholic hierarchs). Can’t you make the same admission about Orthodoxy?
I think the fact that over a billion Catholics remain united is a more significant “Catholic phenomenon”.
I don’t believe it’s quite that simple. Yes she chose not to sin, but I would say that she was the only human after the fall (not counting Christ) to whom God gave the necessary grace to be able to chose not to sin.
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vocatio
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I’m sure you don’t understand why I’m upset…upset enough to be blunt. I have seen so many so called “X-Catholics” that it causes me much grief…not really because they left the Catholic Church, but that they choose to hang out on a Catholic Answers Forum to proselytize now that they believe they have the real faith. There are several on here with similar agendas. I like to share my experience with converts and non-Catholics looking more closely at Catholicism… whether they see it for them or not. But to continue to berate Catholic teaching on a Catholic Answers Forum really looks quite dumb to me…and probably should throw up flags for others as well. I came from a Proselytizing religion and know it when I see it. It’s sneaky and underhanded… They’re trying to pull other Catholics down with them.
I love Orhtodoxy. But the Orhtodox I know do not do this …the ones that were raised in it… Now the converts get crazy…so to speak. They almost turn anti-Catholic…or carry the same resentment with them into Orthodoxy… making it look really unattractive and indignant. The theology is different… But the concepts or goals are ultimately the same in the end…bring us closer to Christ.
I’ve got an ongoing list of anti-Catholic Catholics that left the Catholic Church. I refuse to allow another Catholic to be so easily lead down the same path of self-distructoin…even if it gets me in trouble. Because I will address the issue with the Bishops and ask them to look into this scandalous activity of allow weaker Christians…Catholics fall prey to the sneaking attempts of angry fallen away Catholics. I believe the moderators are very busy and don’t catch all of this…and should ultimately be directed to warn folks that clearly are on here with suspicious intentions.
I’m in the process of discerning the diaconate and do not understand how an orhtodox Catholic site that claims to exist to help even Catholics…can forgo their requirement to defend the faith even on a non-Catholic thread sponsored by and organization that sort of represents the Catholic faith.
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srp643
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And we sincerely pray for you given the fullness of Truth that has come down to us unbroken from Peter and the apostles. We are glad to have you here, stay with us as long as it takes.
I’m curious, who or what has final authority over orthodox (let’s pick one of them, “Russian” or one of the other subnational versions) teaching?
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wynd
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This is not limited to Orthodoxy. Any religion which gets converts (even Catholicism) will have people like the ones you describe.
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Nicholas82
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It happens unfortunately… my whole family is Roman Catholic and I love them. I don’t resent them or their Church although I may disagree with them on points.
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vocatio
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Yes…I know that. I went to the seminary and could tell you mountains of scandalous stories… It’s why I initially left. I understand it when people step away. I’m not that dim. I just know that there are others than should be protected. Some of these will fall away completely. They need time to learn… They would benefit more by those of us that know to teach. I encourage even other faiths to practice their faith…not convert to something different. However, I do encourage them to study history and Church teaching… I understand that …
Now that I’ve overreacted…ya’ll can resume you ongong proselytizing session. But don’t dare jump on me as if I haven’t looked deeply into the issues. We are all, I hope, seeking out truth. I read the Orhtodox historical documents I 've obtained online and so far have yet to be convinced of the parallel history of Rome defecting from Orhtodoxy. I’ve seen both sides of the stories and it the issue is rather…enough of that…not important. If you wish to discuss Orhtodoxy in a civilized manner…great. But don’t go down the path of slamming Catholics.
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Nicholas82
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The thought honestly never even crossed my mind… same here, I respect that.
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Nicholas82
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I honestly don’t think anyone was trying to do that. You seemed to get upset when StMarina303ad expressed his or her belief that the Orthodox Church holds the fullness of the truth and so on; all things I wold expect you believe about your own Church. Now if one can’t even express their firm belief in the unique truth of their Church without being accused of proselytizing then I guess none of us have anything to talk about.
There are people who have studied Church history and prayed about it just as much as yourself and have come to the opposite conclusion that you did. This thread was asking those who did why they did, so it hardly seems inappropriate for said persons to state their case.
I respect Catholics but I’m neither ignorant nor do I think I made the wrong decision to convert. I certainly don’t expect to convert you by throwing around quotes or debating, and I honestly don’t have the time or inclination to pick particular people on internet forums to proselytize.
If you’re worried a Catholic might come across the arguments of an Orthodox poster and be moved to conversion, well, the info is out there to be found. The only thing Catholics or this site could gain by not letting our views be expressed is the chance that a Catholic might never otherwise hear of the Orthodox Church and investigate further, affording them the opportunity to weigh the arguments of both sides. Otherwise, the info is out there for anyone to read. If someone should investigate both Churches they can choose to believe one, the other, or neither; that is up to them.
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