For any Orthodox Converts: Why did you leave the Catholic Church for the Orthodox Church?

[Diamantina]

Why I converted from Catholicism to the Orthodox Church in 1990:

1. I felt very lonely going to Mass by myself (I am the only churchgoer in my immediate family: my father is a lapsed Catholic, my mother a non-churchgoing Methodist: neither of my younger brothers were ever baptized) in a large suburban parish. I was shy and did not know much about ministry opportunities other than choir. Although I had read a fair deal about Church history and hagiography on my own, I was not very well catechized (I was born in 1966 and began going to Mass on my own in 1977). For example, I didn’t realize that missing Sunday Mass and masturbation are mortal sins. I was under the impression that they were sinful, but no big deal.
2. The Byzantine Liturgy is beautiful! In my opinion, it puts the Novus Ordo and the Tridentine Mass to shame.There are several Orthodox parishes within 10 or 12 miles of my house: there were no Eastern Catholic parishes within that radius. Since I have no car, it is difficult for me to get to Eastern Catholic parishes 20 to 40 miles away.
3. The Orthodox Church believed everything that I already believed: I had (and still do to some extent) trouble with the papal claims. Primacy of honor and esteem for the Pope I could accept: what bothered me was the concept of infallibility. I thought (and still do, to some extent) that Blessed Pius IX was wrong to declare it, and Venerable Pius XII wrong to use it. It seemed wrong to put the Filioque in the Nicene Creed, even if it is part of the belief (I had no problem with the concept of the Double Procession). (I still do not say “from the Son” when the Creed is said at Mass.)
4. I met an Orthodox priest and his family: they were very kind to me. The priest and his wife were a few years older than me: their children were small and charming. Their church was a small mission parish, so I felt more comfortable.

Why I reverted back to Catholicism in 2003:

1. I wanted to consecrate myself to God, but wanted some form of consecrated life other than the strictly monastic life that exists in Orthodox Christianity. I did not see myself as the foundress type (my dream was – and still is, to some extent – of joining an active-contemplative community with modified habit: once I reverted, I realized that my health precluded most forms of consecrated life).
2. When I was in grad school, there was an Orthodox mission parish not too far from me, but I felt more comfortable in the Catholic Church: certainly, the Catholic parish was easier to get to.
3. I realized that my mindset is too Western to be fully Orthodox. Also, the priest who had chrismated me and his family had become Missouri Synod Lutherans in the mid 1990s (he is now a pastor): I then moved to a Serbian parish and became active in the choir. Since I was not of Serbian descent (my ancestry is Acadian, Quebecois, Mexican and Irish) nor likely to marry a Serb, I felt a bit like an outsider – welcomed, but not fully part of the family.
4. Fasting rules – I tried to follow them fairly strictly one fast before Christmas, and my health suffered. My mother did not understand why I felt obliged to fast, and thought it silly that I thought it necessary to get an exemption from a priest instead of using common sense and stopping the fast on my own. It is hard for me to abstain from dairy and boned fish, especially since I eat few fruits and vegetables. I still abstain from meat every Friday, even now.

Why I stay Catholic:

1. Ministry opportunities! Being a lector, EMHC and catechist helps me develop my faith and gives me a good reason to go to Mass whenever I feel like staying at home.
2. Lay Carmelites! Orthodox Christians, as a rule, do not have lay associates of monasteries who live in the world. (There was – still is, probably – a group of Benedictine Oblates at a Western Rite Orthodox parish not too far away from me, but they are an exception: they were converts like me.) I enjoy being a Lay Carmelite: I just wish that I could become a consecrated virgin as well. The Liturgy of the Hours carries on my love of the Psalms that I acquired from the habit of regular prayer that I began after I was chrismated in the Orthodox Church. I also read the Scripture readings daily: that, too, began after I was chrismated Orthodox.
3. The Real Presence! Yes, the Orthodox also have the Real Presence, but in the Catholic Church, people are encouraged to come to Communion more often than in Orthodoxy (or at least in the Serbian and ROCOR parishes that I became acquainted with). If the Eucharist is the Medicine of Immortality, I think that the faithful should take the medicine whenever possible – as long as they are not in mortal sin.
4. The Mother of God! My devotion to the Mother of God increased while I was Orthodox, and lasts even now. I like to think that she is protecting me. Certainly, when I was alienated from the concept of a God seen as Father (my relationship with my own father is not the greatest, although we keep in touch) it was easier to pray to a woman who, while tempted by sin, never sinned.

Hope this helps!

 

[Mickey]

I’ve always understood that the Pope is only infallible in Faith and Morals.

“This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.”

~Dogmatic Constitution on the church #25 (LUMEN GENTIUM)

 

[Mickey]

After digging deeper and deeper I came to believe Orhtodox were simlar to folks like Martin Luther and justified the split.

But is was Rome who split from Holy Orthodoxy.

 

[Mickey]

But all our answers are in the Catechism.

Is the catechism infallible?

 

[Silouan]

What do Orthodox believe about the Pope?

In reality, the Pope is no more than a Bishop, equal in power to the rest of the bishops of the world. Or perhaps an Arch Bishop, he is equal to the Archbishops of the Orthodox Church.

In Christ,

Silouan

 

[Mickey]

Your comments only make you look even more like a Protestant faith.

It is unfortunate that you keep saying this. I cannot tell you how many Catholic Churches have attended that felt like I was at a protestant service.

 

[Mickey]

I think the fact that over a billion Catholics remain united is a more significant “Catholic phenomenon”.

LOL!

I suppose that depends on your definition of “united”. I was Ruthenian Catholic for a number of years and you could find those who did not adhere to post schism Roman doctrines and others who were thoroughly Latinized.

Now let’s talk about the Melkites…

 

[Mickey]

I like to share my experience with converts and non-Catholics looking more closely at Catholicism…

And those of us not in communion with Rome like to share our experiences with you.

Now the converts get crazy…so to speak.

This kind of generalization is never fruitful.

I’m in the process of discerning the diaconate

Me too!

 

[Frank_J]

Hello

When I use to attend the Novus Ordo Catholic Church it was like attending a protestant service. I just couldn’t take it anymore, so just start attending a Latin Tridentine Mass and I felt that I was at home.

What made me leave was a Novus Ordo Nun insulted me and I felt that the Catholic hated the Traditionalists so I just got up and left and never returned.

The Novus Ordo Church will never be more then what it’s founder intended it to be in my views. It was Pope Paul VI that wanted to make the Mass more expectable to Protestant. So the old say goes “you get what you pay for”…

Novus Ordo service is always changing even now. I get a big laugh when I hear Roman Catholic’s say that that the Mass that they use is has anything kind of continuance of the old.

I feel that Roman Catholism has no stomach for any kind of toleration group they disagree with. Novus Ordo religionist can’t stand Traditionalists Catholics’.

It show me that he true Church was the Orthodox Christian Church for at lease it treats all people as human beings and it show kindness to all.

The Byzantine Liturgy is beautiful and better reflex the Holiness of GOD. I love serving with the Priest at the Altar for the Divine Liturgy gives me great peace in my heart and draws me to GOD.

If someone wanted to ask me how I feel about my being Orthodox I would say that I’m very happy and that I will never ever leave my Church to revert to want was pain in my life.

 

[Mickey]

1. The Real Presence! Yes, the Orthodox also have the Real Presence, but in the Catholic Church, people are encouraged to come to Communion more often than in Orthodoxy (or at least in the Serbian and ROCOR parishes that I became acquainted with). If the Eucharist is the Medicine of Immortality, I think that the faithful should take the medicine whenever possible – as long as they are not in mortal sin.

I will share an observation with you. Being Catholic for many years before coming to Holy Orthodoxy, I noticed the differences in frequency of receiving Holy Communion. Although me and my family continue to receive every Sunday and feast day, others do not commune frequently–some only 2-4 times per year during the Great Fast and on Pascha. There are different reasons for this. Some are very devout and insist on strict preparation of one week prayer and fasting before they receive. Some Orthodox Churches (such as mine) require weekly confession if you are going to receiving on a weekly basis. Perhaps some do not feel comfortable confessing so often? I do not know–it is not my place to judge. But I do know that most Orthodox parishes are small enough where the priest knows who has been to confession and who has not–there are no confessional booths.

In the Catholic Church, virtually everyone would receive every week. Are the Catholics participating in the Sacrament of Reconciliation as often as they should? I do not know. It is not my place to judge. What I do know—is that the Sacraments of Reconciliation and the Holy Eucharist are closely intertwined.

Weekly confession and weekly communion, (with proper preparation of prayer and observance of the fasting days), is the most beautiful experience of my life.

Thank you for your story. God bless you.

 

[srp643]

In reality, the Pope is no more than a Bishop, equal in power to the rest of the bishops of the world. Or perhaps an Arch Bishop, he is equal to the Archbishops of the Orthodox Church.

In Christ,

Silouan

To which “Orthodox” Church are your referring? Last I heard there were 13 different orthodox churches in Greece alone. I guess there is now at least one new “orthodox” church in Estonia which some of the Russian orthodox churches won’t recognize. Recently, some set of “orthodox” churches agreed the Pope has primacy but the Russians weren’t there because of the Estonians. Sad. Clearly not what Christ wanted. Soloviev was right in his critiques.

Deo gratias.

 

[Mickey]

To which “Orthodox” Church are your referring? Last I heard there were 13 different orthodox churches in Greece alone.

Is that similar to the 23 different sui juris Churches in Catholicism?

 

[Peter_J]

LOL!

I suppose that depends on your definition of “united”. I was Ruthenian Catholic for a number of years and you could find those who did not adhere to post schism Roman doctrines and others who were thoroughly Latinized.

Now let’s talk about the Melkites…

So I take it you believe that the East and the West weren’t “really united” in the first millennium?

 

[Peter_J]

“This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.”

~Dogmatic Constitution on the church #25 (LUMEN GENTIUM)

What you quoted says nothing about infallibility, so what I said before still stands: the Roman Catholic Church only teaches that the Pope is infallible when he makes an ex cathedra statement. The Catholic Church does not teach – as some have claimed – that the Pope is infallible whenever he teaches anything about faith or morals.

As far as understanding that quote from Lumen Gentium, someone else here might be able to explain it better, but I’ll take a shot at it. I’d say a good example of this was the 1994 letter by Pope John Paul II, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, which declared: “Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance … I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.” He didn’t define a dogma, hence he didn’t make an ex cathedra statement, but he did require all Catholics to agree with his conclusion.

If you think about it, the alternative – i.e. that the Catholic faithful must agree with the pope when he makes an ex cathedra statement but not at any other time – would force the Vatican to publish an official list of ex cathedra statements. In other words, not only would there be no room for disagreement about the truth of e.g. Ineffabilis Deus, there would also be no room for disagreement about whether it was an ex cathedra statement or not.

 

[Mickey]

So I take it you believe that the East and the West weren’t “really united” in the first millennium?

 

[StMarina303ad]

Hello

When I use to attend the Novus Ordo Catholic Church it was like attending a protestant service. I just couldn’t take it anymore, so just start attending a Latin Tridentine Mass and I felt that I was at home.

What made me leave was a Novus Ordo Nun insulted me and I felt that the Catholic hated the Traditionalists so I just got up and left and never returned.

The Novus Ordo Church will never be more then what it’s founder intended it to be in my views. It was Pope Paul VI that wanted to make the Mass more expectable to Protestant. So the old say goes “you get what you pay for”…

Novus Ordo service is always changing even now. I get a big laugh when I hear Roman Catholic’s say that that the Mass that they use is has anything kind of continuance of the old.

I feel that Roman Catholism has no stomach for any kind of toleration group they disagree with. Novus Ordo religionist can’t stand Traditionalists Catholics’.

It show me that he true Church was the Orthodox Christian Church for at lease it treats all people as human beings and it show kindness to all.

The Byzantine Liturgy is beautiful and better reflex the Holiness of GOD. I love serving with the Priest at the Altar for the Divine Liturgy gives me great peace in my heart and draws me to GOD.

If someone wanted to ask me how I feel about my being Orthodox I would say that I’m very happy and that I will never ever leave my Church to revert to want was pain in my life.

Thank you for sharing Frank! I’m so happy you were able to find the Orthodox Church and are now home! May others follow in your footsteps.

 

[Mickey]

What you quoted says nothing about infallibility

I never said it did. But it does say that you are to be in submission in mind and will…

I’d say a good example of this was the 1994 letter by Pope John Paul II, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, which declared:

Male only priestly ordination would be in accordance with Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition–would it not?

 

[StMarina303ad]

Sounds to me like a classic case of denial. I, as a Catholic, am willing to admit that there’s “bickering” among Catholic hierarchs (not much, mind you, but enough that I couldn’t honestly say that there’s no “bickering” among Catholic hierarchs). Can’t you make the same admission about Orthodoxy?

Please do share with us…what Orthodox Patriarch bickered with another - who were they and what were they bickering over? I’ve never heard of a Patriarch bickering with another in the 14+ years I’ve been either Orthodox or looking into the Orthodox Faith.

I think the fact that over a billion Catholics remain united is a more significant “Catholic phenomenon”.

Really? Truly united? I beg to differ. There are at least 20 different rites of the Catholic Church - many teach different doctrines. Plus you have two different creeds that are recited depending upon which rite you attend. But wait, let’s just look at the Roman Catholic rite…you have several different liturgies said on the same Sunday depending on which church you attend & then there is high Mass and low Mass.

The Orthodox Church is united in doctrine and united in Liturgy. If I attend a Serbian Church during Great Lent on a Sunday - it will be the St. Basil Liturgy just the same as if I attended my Greek Orthodox Church. The creed is identical no matter which Orthodox Church you may happen to attend. The fasting periods are the same.

I don’t believe it’s quite that simple. Yes she chose not to sin, but I would say that she was the only human after the fall (not counting Christ) to whom God gave the necessary grace to be able to chose not to sin.

What you have written above greatly concerns me because you are degrading my Mother. You have indicated that Mary’s purity has nothing to do with Mary’s choices but God’s choice to prevent her for being able to sin. You are putting down my Mother and God’s Mother! Them there is fightin’ words!
Let me tell you something - God gives all of us enough grace that we don’t have to sin - but we all (including Mary) are born into a sinful world because Adam and Eve let sin into - Mary is unique among us because she chose not to sin! As such a human person who overcame sin by choosing not to sin she is a wonderful example - living proof that we can for the rest of our lives choose not to sin either. In Orthodoxy we have men and women who have done just that after their conversion to Christ! St. Mary of Egypt is one of them - she lead a horrible sinful life - worse than a slut - and she had a powerful conversion, after which she wandered in the desert in complete communion with God and was discovered by a Holy Monk - he witnessed her walking on water.
Please do not attempt to degrade my Mother again.

 

[StMarina303ad]

I’m curious, who or what has final authority over orthodox (let’s pick one of them, “Russian” or one of the other subnational versions) teaching?

Jesus Christ is the only Head of the Orthodox Church. Our “body” is not deformed.

 

[Silouan]

To which “Orthodox” Church are your referring? Last I heard there were 13 different orthodox churches in Greece alone. I guess there is now at least one new “orthodox” church in Estonia which some of the Russian orthodox churches won’t recognize. Recently, some set of “orthodox” churches agreed the Pope has primacy but the Russians weren’t there because of the Estonians. Sad. Clearly not what Christ wanted. Soloviev was right in his critiques.

Deo gratias.

There is no doubt the Catholic (Orthodox) Church has been divided, and the Roman Catholic Church, is one of these division.

But the general beliefs and practices of the other 13 Orthodox Churches have stayed the same, differing mainly semantics. While the Roman Catholics have innovated greatly in some of their beliefs and practices.

And Our Lord Knows Best.