For any person of Islam.

[Sister_Amy]

Frankly I think there is a tremendous amount of confusion and misinformation about slavery according to the Qur’an.

Women are not, absolutely NOT, to be forced into marriage. If a woman is taken captive in a war (where her husband or family are killed, and there is nobody else to take care of her) and she does have relations with whoever is her captor or owner as a slave, and if she becomes pregnant, then she is automatically free.

So when you say “the Qur’an condones slavery” you miss all the things in Islam where Muslims are supposed to free slaves.

Islam, I believe, is a way of life for all people, at all times, and therefore highly adaptable. There are some things which would not have applied to Arabs in the desert but that are part of Islam, that might apply to other people living today. So in Islam there are rulings about situations that do not necessarily apply to all people, at all times, and slavery is one of those things.

 

[Stephen0]

Sister Amy, your English is fluid and I would think that its your native tongue. I’m sorry if my story digressed from my ending question. Your reply to me didn’t seem to relate to it and then again you might feel more comfortable by not answering it. Which I can respect. However, I wish that some other follower of the Prophet would take a crack at answering that question for me for I’m trying to build an understanding of both the strengths and weaknesses that Islam contains,
Anyway, I’m off on a trip to visit my 86 year old mother for 2 days and will reply when I get back.

 

[Stephen0]

Clovis, this is your original thread and I wanted to know why you felt the way you did in fearing God. So, I checked over some of your post to get an idea of your personality. After reading several of them, I begin to understand. Please don’t dispair for as a person journeys closer to God the more he becomes aware of his sinfulness. I will never forget relating to a wise old Thai lady about the moral mistakes that I had made in life. And her answer was to point down the road to a crematorium and say, “You are lucky, you can still make mistakes, for the dead can’t, it is only the living that still have the ability to do that. Of course, you want to learn from those mistakes and then not make them again, but learn to grown beyond them.” That bit of information was worth my whole trip to Asia. What I’m saying to you is yes we can really screw up life, but nothing is stopping us from redirecting it and asking of the grace of God to strengthen us. If you really want to be uplifted read about the life of Francis Thompson and then read his glorious poem about his struggle with God in the “Hound of Heaven.”

 

[Booklover]

Frankly I think there is a tremendous amount of confusion and misinformation about slavery according to the Qur’an.

Women are not, absolutely NOT, to be forced into marriage. If a woman is taken captive in a war (where her husband or family are killed, and there is nobody else to take care of her) and she does have relations with whoever is her captor or owner as a slave, and if she becomes pregnant, then she is automatically free.

Have relations with her captor, or being raped? Evasions, evasions!

Bukhari (62:137) - An account of women taken as slaves in battle by Muhammad’s men after their husbands and fathers were killed. The woman were raped with Muhammad’s approval.

Bukhari (34:432) - Another account of females taken captive and raped with Muhammad’s approval. In this case it is evident that the Muslims intend on selling the women after raping them because they are concerned about devaluing their price by impregnating them. Muhammad is asked about coitus interruptus.

Bukhari (47.765) - A woman is rebuked by Muhammad for freeing a slave girl. The prophet tells her that she would have gotten a greater heavenly reward by giving her to a relative (as a slave).

So when you say “the Qur’an condones slavery” you miss all the things in Islam where Muslims are supposed to free slaves.

Nice try, but won’t work! more on the subject!

Islam, I believe, is a way of life for all people, at all times, and therefore highly adaptable. There are some things which would not have applied to Arabs in the desert but that are part of Islam, that might apply to other people living today. So in Islam there are rulings about situations that do not necessarily apply to all people, at all times, and slavery is one of those things.

How can Islam be adaptable when it’s firmly rooted in the 7th century!

 

[tomshaikh]

Sorry it is like that

4 or 5 Catholics 1 Mormon Not Good. 1 Mormon and 1 Muslim 4 or 5 Catholics Very Good

 

[LaMar]

How can Islam be adaptable when it’s firmly rooted in the 7th century!

Denmark and The Netherlands aren’t rooted in the 7th century. Both those countries have passed resolutions in past years putting Islam on the same governmental level as the national religions.

I don’t think the U.K. has gone quite this far, but they seem to be debating a similar move now.

 

[Booklover]

Denmark and The Netherlands aren’t rooted in the 7th century. Both those countries have passed resolutions in past years putting Islam on the same governmental level as the national religions.

I don’t think the U.K. has gone quite this far, but they seem to be debating a similar move now.

What has any of this got to do with Islam being mired in the 7th century?

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

Denmark and The Netherlands aren’t rooted in the 7th century. Both those countries have passed resolutions in past years putting Islam on the same governmental level as the national religions.

If they accept sharia law in those countries they will descend to the barbarism of 7th century Arabia.

And both as well as other European countries like France, who have allowed unlimited Muslim immigration, are having all kinds of problems with Muslims who won’t integrate into their societies.

The Dutch, for one, are taking a dim of Muslim immigration.

I don’t think the U.K. has gone quite this far, but they seem to be debating a similar move now.

And there’s opposition to that there as well!

Vickie

 

[LaMar]

If they accept sharia law in those countries they will descend to the barbarism of 7th century Arabia.

And both as well as other European countries like France, who have allowed unlimited Muslim immigration, are having all kinds of problems with Muslims who won’t integrate into their societies.

France had a revolution, inbetween ours and the Soviets, which led to it becoming a more secular society (like the USA or the USSR used to be). I don’t think they take an official position there on religion.

It is a good point though, because despite what the government might say, Europeans have a completely different outlook on religion.

I think the USA has a lot more experience in integrating diverse cultures than anyone else. Even Canada (which has a cultural mosaic philosophy, as opposed to our melting pot) is having problems with religious diversity among different forms of Christianity.

I mean, I’m a Mormon who married a girl who was born Jewish, and we have kids together who are young. One of my kids might want to run off and become a Catholic, and the other might convert to Islam. What will it mean to us, as Americans? Not a whole lot, frankly.

France, despite their enlightenment ideas, doesn’t have the experience we do. They have trouble because French people equate religion with nationality, where we don’t. If a French kid converts to Islam, his family might disown him. It’s a different structure.

 

[Sister_Amy]

The interesting and marvelous thing about Shari’a is that it is actually not “mired in the 7th century.” In fact, it’s flexible and for all people, all places, at all times. This “7th century” bit is just a panicky claim of people who really don’t understand Shari’a in the first place.

Shari’a is kind of like a grid, explaining how to react to a particular situation, with the situation being like the coordinates you use.

For example, Muslims are supposed to pray facing the Ka’ba, in Mecca. But shortly after Muhammad scholars starting asking question like, what direction would you pray if you’re suspended in air. That is not a situation which occurred in the 7th century, but not until the 20th! And now we deal with it today–what if you’re on an airplane, or on a space ship!! And Islam already has an answer to that question.

So Shari’a provides this flexibility, a way to answer questions about how a person should live according to God given certain (name removed by moderator)ut variables.

When there aren’t answers already, in the books, then scholars use what they already know and then make analogies to determine a ruling for modern situations.

So it’s not 7th century at all, but in fact just the opposite–completely flexible and modern, and can be applied anywhere.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy, your English is fluid and I would think that its your native tongue. I’m sorry if my story digressed from my ending question. Your reply to me didn’t seem to relate to it and then again you might feel more comfortable by not answering it. Which I can respect. However, I wish that some other follower of the Prophet would take a crack at answering that question for me for I’m trying to build an understanding of both the strengths and weaknesses that Islam contains,
Anyway, I’m off on a trip to visit my 86 year old mother for 2 days and will reply when I get back.

Sorry if I wasn’t able to answer it to your satisfaction.

 

[LaMar]

So it’s not 7th century at all, but in fact just the opposite–completely flexible and modern, and can be applied anywhere.

That’s a good point, and might explain why religious scholars in various Arab countries called upon their governments to abolish the death penalty on religious grounds (I think Tunisia is the only government to do this so far), while different rulings based on different precedents have allowed it to continue in other areas.

I’ve enjoyed your articles Amy and I think you should keep writing them. I’m sure there are plenty of people who read them and appreciate them, but don’t want to comment because of the tone that prevails here.

 

[AgnosTheist]

And now we deal with it today–what if you’re on an airplane, or on a space ship!! And Islam already has an answer to that question.

and what is islam’s answer?

So it’s not 7th century at all, but in fact just the opposite–completely flexible and modern, and can be applied anywhere.

How come the places where sharia is applied becomes backwards instead?

 

[AgnosTheist]

Even Canada (which has a cultural mosaic philosophy, as opposed to our melting pot) is having problems with religious diversity among different forms of Christianity.

I live in Canada and my relatives here are from different forms of christianity. What problems are you referring to?

If a French kid converts to Islam, his family might disown him.

If that happens, it would only because Islam is very unpopular. I doubt anyone would get disowned if they converted to Buddhism. A religion known for its peacefulness.

 

[Sister_Amy]

and what is islam’s answer?

Actually it’s different. I think the original (older) opinion was to not pray it in the air but on the ground. And if you were up there and the time was in and you wouldn’t be down then you should pray it for the time, and repeat it when back on the ground.

Now the answer in some schools is the same, but others differ saying that prayer on an airplane is fine if the time is in, so long as you just try to determine the appropriate direction. If there is not enough room it is possible to pray sitting as well.

How come the places where sharia is applied becomes backwards instead?

How come the world isn’t perfect?

 

[LaMar]

prayer on an airplane is fine if the time is in, so long as you just try to determine the appropriate direction. If there is not enough room it is possible to pray sitting as well.

I read a ruling on this yesterday. Traditional prayer on an airplane is considered haram, in that the airplane is considered a small town, and kneeling in the aisle is “blocking the street” of the town.

That might seem trivial, but that’s why I’ve enjoyed learning about Islam. It’s very logical and has the potential to be incredibly progressive.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Actually it’s different. I think the original (older) opinion was to not pray it in the air but on the ground. And if you were up there and the time was in and you wouldn’t be down then you should pray it for the time, and repeat it when back on the ground.

Now the answer in some schools is the same, but others differ saying that prayer on an airplane is fine if the time is in, so long as you just try to determine the appropriate direction. If there is not enough room it is possible to pray sitting as well.

i thought youll be able to provide us with verses or hadiths that reveals the answer.

if answers differ, then its very likely that the answer doesnt really come from islam, but from the opinions of different mullahs.

How come the world isn’t perfect?

because theres a lot of stupid human policies floating around. like that oppressive religious idea that its ok to beat wives as a last resort. right?

now the idea that sharia is modern, i’d really like to see evidences of that. can you help out?

 

[Booklover]

I read a ruling on this yesterday. Traditional prayer on an airplane is considered haram, in that the airplane is considered a small town, and kneeling in the aisle is “blocking the street” of the town.

That might seem trivial, but that’s why I’ve enjoyed learning about Islam. It’s very logical and has the potential to be incredibly progressive.

Why am I not surprised that you find that logical and progressive!

Do you consider it logical that hospitals should move Muslim patients’ beds to face Mecca 5 times a day? This is already being done in England! :hypno:

Vickie

 

[AgnosTheist]

It’s very logical and has the potential to be incredibly progressive.

You think its logical to beat rebellious wives as a last resort?

You think its logical to kill apostates?



sometimes its logical. sometimes its anything but logical.

 

[Valke2]

Why am I not surprised that you find that logical and progressive!

Do you consider it logical that hospitals should move Muslim patients’ beds to face Mecca 5 times a day? This is already being done in England! :hypno:

Vickie

It is as logical as providing a priest to pray with or over patients.