For Catholics and Protestants

[michaelgazin]

RonWI:

Michael boasts either because (1) like me (and contrary to the Council of Trent), he is confident that Christ’s death and resurrection alone paid the price in full,

That is what I believe and it is not contrary to Trent. We all believe in sola Christo.

or (2) consistent with the Council of Trent, he is confident that he has done enough good works that his salvation is guarenteed.

Not true. The only one who knows the certainty of anyone’s salvation is God alone, the Judge. I stated I have moral certainty, that I believe I am living a life in accord with the will of God, however I can not truly know my destiny as there is but one Judge. If you believe in some sort of predestination, then that eliminates free will, and the need of a Judge.

It sounds like you simply hope that from the moment of your creation you were already written in the Book of the Lamb, and that nothing you can do will change that. I suppose that is what you must believe if you can do nothing to lose or gain your salvation.

wcknight:

IF Michael believes that his own actions alone saves him, then he is NOT abiding by Catholic beliefs either.

No I do not believe this. That was one of the first heresies in the Church. I believe that faith and works are inseparably united. As C.S. Lewis once said, “emphasis on either works or faith to the exclusion of the other, is like thinking that one blade in a pair of scissors was more necessary than the other.”

Something many protestants misunderstand about the Catholic view of works, is that our works do not earn anything. Our works are only rewarded, and only because of God’s promise. Paul continually talks about works and things that are pleasing to God. Any good work we can do is only made possible through the giving of God’s grace. We are incapable of doing good works on our own, separate from God’s grace.

So in that sense, there will never be anything anyone can do on their own, to better their chances of salvation. It is only possible through God.

An obvious contradictory statement however from a belief system like Ron’s, would be that one believes they can do nothing to earn salvation, yet I bet they agree one must have faith to be saved, and that is something one can do. Whether this is a “work” or not, it is a necessity that we must do to inherit eternal life. How is this contradiction reasoned?

But to just clarify, I am not claiming to be Catholic and representing different beliefs. I am completely Catholic in the fullest sense; obedience, faith, beliefs etc.

Peace,
Michael

 

[catsrus]

I am Catholic because The Church is where Christ led me after I finally opened my heart to His insistent knocking.
Lutheran I once was, Catholic I have become in every aspect and Catholic I will remain, with gratitude and joy, to my dying day.
Thanks be to God.

 

[RonWI]

Michael, what is the difference between certainty and moral certainty?

 

[michaelgazin]

RonWI:

Michael, what is the difference between certainty and moral certainty?

I believe I am living a life in accord with the will of God, one that is worthy of salvation. This is something that probably most Catholics feel and should feel; that they are living a “saving” life. Absolute certainty however can only be found in our omniscient God.

I would define moral certainty as following all the criteria that is necessary for salvation to the best of one’s own knowledge.

Sorry about the ambiguity.

Peace,
Michael

 

[gardenswithkids]

OnTheFence:

Funny, that is the reason I am LEAVING the RCC! Yes, the teachings of the church say one thing, but the people don’t all adhere to it. As a Catholic, I TOTALLY adhered to RCC teaching. Now, as a protestant who relies ONLY in the Bible, the same thing happens - the Bible says one thing and the people don’t all adhere to it. But RCC put their “blind faith” as you say, in the church, protestants put their “blind faith” in God’s Word for teaching.

I’m sad to read you’re leaving. I read some of your posts yesterday and I was impressed with your sincerity seeking answers to your questions. But I take issue with the term “blind faith”, I once was blind, but now I see.

Why am I Catholic? Because I believe all that the Catholic Church teaches is true. Because in the time I was away from the Catholic Church attending a Protestant church, I studied the Bible. The more I read in the Bible, the more I realized that the Catholic Church taught the truth of the Bible, including the uncomfortable, difficult to grasp, politically incorrect truth. The more time I spent searching for a Protestant denomination to teach that whole truth, the more I longed to return home to the Catholic Church.

I know God was with me in the time I was away from the Church. Honestly, if I hadn’t been away, I don’t think my faith in the Catholic Church would be as strong as it is now. But now that I’m back, I never want to leave again.

 

[RonWI]

You know what is amazing (in the bad sense) about this thread? Not a single person (including me!) has said: “because my parents were”. Is it really a sign of weakness, or insincerity, to say “I have my faith because this is how I was raised. It is the faith my parents gave me.” Is it wrong to suggest the Holy Spirit would use parents as missionaries? Are we affraid of provoking the response: “See. If you would just think about it yourself and exercise a little independent judgment, you would realize you are wrong.”

 

[matthew1624]

RonWI:

You know what is amazing (in the bad sense) about this thread? Not a single person (including me!) has said: “because my parents were”. Is it really a sign of weakness, or insincerity, to say “I have my faith because this is how I was raised. It is the faith my parents gave me.” Is it wrong to suggest the Holy Spirit would use parents as missionaries? Are we affraid of provoking the response: “See. If you would just think about it yourself and exercise a little independent judgment, you would realize you are wrong.”

When I fully embraced my faith, it was because the scales fell from my eyes. At one point I had eyes but didn’t see, ears but never once opened them. Being raised catholic may have had an impact but never once did I remain catholic because my parents were. They did the best they could considering they only had a 3rd and 4th grade education. In a sense, they taught by living it.

God Bless…