For Catholics who seem to hate the word "Allah"...

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While true in the grand scheme of Truth, they may have good ways of expressing themselves that we can use ourselves in a perfectly orthodox way, just as we’ve done in relation to Protestants in the past. The example I’m specifically referring to right now is of the Advent Wreath, which I believe was originally put together by a Lutheran church and then spread to other Protestant churches, and because of the orthodox and beautifully expressive nature of the wreath, Catholics too have adopted it. Similarly, if Muslims have a beautiful way to express a truth about God that we too believe, why can’t we use it? Because it originated from Muslims? So what?! The time of year for some Christian holidays, such as All Saints Day and Christmas, were set as what they are to have a Christian replacement for pagan holidays. Do you mean to say that this shouldn’t have been done because celebrations on those days were originally pagan? Truth is truth, and just because another religion came up with a way to express a truth that we share with them doesn’t mean we can’t use it.

“There is no god but God.” Is this not the first commandment?
At the risk of spending too much time bogging the discussion down with entertaining obfuscations, I’ll just go ahead and point out the following…

Decorative Christmas folk customs like advent wreaths are a wholly different matter than incorporating Mohammedan prayers and formulae into Catholic prayer.

The Church declaring perfectly orthodox Christian feast days to counter lingering pagan celebrations is also a completely different matter.

“There is no god but God” is not the First Commandment. It is the Islamic “Shahada,” their declaration of faith, and it is immediately followed by “and Mohammed is his prophet.” The first commandment is “I am the LORD thy God; thou shalt not have strange gods before Me.” They are not the same, despite containing a superficial similarity. As Chesterton, the “apostle of common sense” pointed out, to say a thing is “like” another thing is as much a statement of difference as it is of similarity. The mere fact you so blithely conflated the two redounds to my point - there is a danger in laymen playing with private syncretism willy-nilly, not the least of which being indifferentism.

The First Commandment is a declaration by God Almighty Himself that we are not to adore anything other than (or in addition to) Himself. The shahada is an Islamic formula required to be recited by converts to the Mohammedan religion, which was formulated by men in direct opposition of the Dogma of the Trinity, which is particularly abhorrent to Mohammedans. And this is what makes Christian use of this phrase so inadvisable - the shahada is an Islamic formulation of the uniqueness and oneness of God* in the Islamic sense* which is uttered by Mohammedans as a repudiation not only of polytheism but also of the Trinity. Why on earth would a Christian want to flirt with a formulation that is so tainted - **especially when there is nothing at all lacking in Catholic theology, mysticism, devotion and dogma that you would need to do it??? **

And where does one draw the line? Because some American and western European Catholics use Advent wreaths, should we take to quoting the Hadiths and reciting Mohammedan prayers because of some incidental, superficial truth they may express? Why stop there? The OP seems to think borrowing from the Mormons is beyond the pale because they’re polytheists. But why? Why is that error sufficient to poison the well, but not Islamic anti-Trinitarian, anti-Incarnation, and anti-Crucifixion errors? Seems awfully arbitrary to me.

And let me take it a bit further and play “devil’s advocate” in a more literal sense than I’m ordinarily comfortable with: According to their Wikipedia article, the “church of satan” condemns, among other things: pretentiousness, solipsism, and “harming little children.” That seems like good advice. Should I therefore praise the church of satan and incorporate their writings and practices into my own Catholic life because I see occasional, superficial, incidental truths in their cult?

The answer, of course, is “no.” And that is all the point I’m making here: Don’t wander off to poisonous springs when you have an endless reservoir of pure water at your disposal. I think the metaphor is very apt. The OP attempted to answer it by saying that he would filter the poison out. Of course, this fails to address why anyone with limitless access to clean water would feel the need to drink filtered poison in the first place.

I’ve said it before, but it bears repeating: Lex orandi, lex credendi.
 
My two cents.

I sometimes assist at the Divine Liturgy in Melkite, Chalean and Maronite Catholic parishes. There they use the term Allah, as it is the Arabic word for God. Not exclusivly a term for God in Islam. The use does predate Islam and was as well as continues to be used by Catholic and Orthodox Christians from the Middle East.

Now some who are speaking english and use the term Allah, are mistaken in believing that it is the sole property of Islam, or it refers only to the heretical teachings about God that Muslim theology teaches. While it is and can be misunderstood in English and other languages, one can’t jump to judgement when someone uses the term, one can ask about the context it is spoken in, ie Christian or Muslim.
Thank you and the OP for this information. I am one who misunderstood the word as exclusively referring to the god of Islam.
 
If it would be outrageous for a Catholic priest to refer to God as Allah in the mass, then it probably would be outrageous for a Catholic to do the same in other contexts.

Allah refers to a completely different idea of God. Allah is not the Trinity. Allah is not Love. It doesn’t make any sense to me for Catholics to refer to God as Allah.
It is NOT outrageous for a Catholic priest to refer to God as Allah. Our Catholic priest are often bilingual or multilingual. Masses are sometimes held in multi-languages. I have attended Easter/Christmas masses where portions are in English, Chinese Mandarin and Malay Language or Iban language. In Malay or Iban language, God is Allah in their language. The local language Catholic Bible printed contains the word Allah. This is Vatican approved. To reject that is going against your Church. Allah IS the Trinitarian God believed by all Catholics. Allah is not the Trinitarian God believed by all Muslims. Period. No drama there.

Allah predates Islam. Just because someone that you do not agree with “plagiarises” a word doesn’t mean you have to abandon the word and cop out. Lucky for you the Koran must be in Arabic otherwise if translated to English, you need to abandon the word God too by your logic.

Catholic means universal. The faith have been spread for over 2000 yrs already in many many languages. Meaning we were there before newer religions like Islam exist. What do you suggest we do when religions that you do not agree with uses the same word that we have been using for ages?

Judaism doesn’t believe in the trinitarian God. So, by your logic, we shouldn’t use the word Elohim?
 
To me it is quite clear. Since Allah is an Arabic word, and this word has not been used in the English speaking world in the liturgy or sacred scripture, it surely is unusual to use it unless of course for the purpose of teaching clarification. Like to explain that the word ‘God’ have different names in different languages, Arabic for example. Thus its usage for Arab speaking Christians.
 
At my request, the thread regarding my picking up the Tasbih and Dhikr was deleted, as it took a rather ugly turn. Many issues arose, but I think I will only tackle one at the moment. How could I have known that word “Allah” bothered so many Catholics, as I thought Catholics (such as myself) were smarter than that. The problem is clearly a linguistic issue, causing so much unnecessary and unreasonable anger in ENGLISH speaking Catholics.
It was not the word but that you wanted to practice Islam hat got people’s dandruff up. You are suppose to be a Christian not a hybrid.
 
…incorporating Mohammedan prayers and formulae into Catholic prayer…

“There is no god but God” is not the First Commandment. It is the Islamic “Shahada,” their declaration of faith, and it is immediately followed by “and Mohammed is his prophet.” The first commandment is “I am the LORD thy God; thou shalt not have strange gods before Me.” They are not the same, despite containing a superficial similarity…

…And where does one draw the line…? Because some American and western European Catholics use Advent wreaths, should we take to quoting the Hadiths and reciting Mohammedan prayers because of some incidental, superficial truth they may express? Why stop there? The OP seems to think borrowing from the Mormons is beyond the pale because they’re polytheists. But why? Why is that error sufficient to poison the well, but not Islamic anti-Trinitarian, anti-Incarnation, and anti-Crucifixion errors? Seems awfully arbitrary to me…

I’ve said it before, but it bears repeating: Lex orandi, lex credendi.
Okay, first: Stop saying “Mohammedan”, because unless I’m wrong, that’s a very prejudice term, Even the Vatican website is respectful enough to say “Muslim”, well actually they spell it “Moslem” I thing for some reason. Typo, something?

Anyway, I do not say the full Shahada, that is where one line is drawn, again taking the good and leaving the bad, filtering, but since you complain about the contrast between the first commandment and the first half of the Shahada, let me share Isaiah:

Thus says the LORD the King of Israel , and his
Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: “I am the first, and
I am the last; and besides me there is no God.”
(Isaiah 44:6)

" …you are even my witnesses. Is there
a God beside me? yes, there is no God;
I know not any. "
(Isaiah 44:8)

" I am the LORD, and there is
no other; Besides Me there is
no God… "
(Isaiah 45:5)

Now you speak of borrowing the Hadith, all other Islamic prayers,
Mormon stuff, THAT is what happens when no line is drawn and
you’re keep it from being drawn. Also, I don’t appreciate the Straw-
man argument.
 
It was not the word but that you wanted to
practice Islam hat got people’s dandruff up.
You are suppose to be a Christian not a hybrid.
To say “practice Islam” is to suggest I’m going all the way in practice. Not so. Just borrowing
a little, things which Christianity shares in common with Islam. Muslims say No God Except
God, I say No God Except God. Muslims say Muhammad is the Messenger of God, I do
not
say Muhammad is the Messenger of God.

I highly doubt I’ll make Hajj, I know I can’t fast for
Ramadan, definitely not gonna believe the Qur’an
at full 100%, nor likely at 50%.
 
Okay, first: Stop saying “Mohammedan”, because unless I’m wrong, that’s a very prejudice term, Even the Vatican website is respectful enough to say “Muslim”, well actually they spell it “Moslem” I thing for some reason. Typo, something?
I will not stop. “Mohammedan” was used with no qualms for 13 centuries by countless Catholic popes, saints and martyrs… and my pious Maltese grandfather, I might add. If it’s good enough for them, it’s good enough for me, the Vatican website and 4 decades of PC ecumenical niceties notwithstanding. I’m sorry you find traditional Catholic language so disagreeable.
Now you speak of borrowing the Hadith, all other Islamic prayers,
Mormon stuff, THAT is what happens when no line is drawn and
you’re keep it from being drawn. Also, I don’t appreciate the Straw-
man argument.
So where do you draw the line? Halfway through the shahada? The Mohammedan chaplet is kosher (or “halal,” if you prefer), but the hadiths are not? Islamic spirituality is beautiful and useful but Mormon spirituality is not? From where I’m standing, both are false religions, both came centuries after Christ, both were founded by delusional polygamists who fancied themselves “prophets.” So the lines you’re drawing and failing to draw seem pretty arbitrarily chosen to me.

I did not claim you read the Hadiths, but I did posit it as consistent with your usage of Mohammedan prayers. Again, that a line is drawn between the two seems untenable and arbitrary. And simply calling a line of argumentation a “strawman” does not make it so.

And please answer this (if for no other reason than to assuage the fears of anyone who might go camping or hiking with you some day): If you have unlimited access to clean water, why are you drinking filtered poison?
 
Why can’t you just use Arabic Christian prayerbooks? Why not recite the psalms in Arabic? Or say the Divine Office in Arabic?

If you play with fire, you’re gonna get burned.
 
Hi,

The word for God in Arabic, Allah (ﷲ), comes from the Aramaic word for God, Alaha/Elaha (ܐܠܗܐ).

In Scripture, Jesus cried out to God the Father in Aramaic: “My God, Elahi, ܐܠܗܝ” (Mark 15:34).

So, there isn’t anything wrong with this term… Jesus Himself used it, though, in it’s older Aramaic version. 🙂

But I do want to say that in an English/Western context and audience, as of this time in history, it might cause “scandal” to those who are not familiar with the origins of this term, but are only familiar with it in an Islamic context. So, I would urge caution before using this term in an English context/audience.

I do hope, though, that eventually Westerners can become more comfortable with these things that originate from the Middle East, the origin of the Church. Just like no one raises an eyebrow when God is referred to as Theos (God in Greek), or Deus (God in Latin), so likewise, no one should object to God being referred to as Allah (God in Arabic), Alaha (God in Aramaic), or Elohim (God in Hebrew).

God bless,

Rony
 
Why can’t you just use Arabic Christian prayerbooks? Why not recite the psalms in Arabic? Or say the Divine Office in Arabic?

If you play with fire, you’re gonna get burned.
  1. Arabic is difficult, but the few phrases I do know (ex: Alhamdulillah) are easy. I’m actually
    seeking to learn Arabic, but for now unable to take classes the rest of this year, am left with
    what I know. I am, however, attempting to learn the Our Father in Arabic, as I often begin my
    Tasbih with the Our Father, but in English, so I think I’ll figure out the language at some point.
and 2) … actually I guess that’s about it.

Thanks for the warning on playing with fire.
 
Thank you, you brave CAF moderators, for having the courage to boldly:
  • Silence debate
  • Punish traditional Catholic thought
  • Impede the charitable act of fraternal correction
  • Anathematize the language of our Catholic patrimony
To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin: Those who would sacrifice truth for charity possess neither.

"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you go round about the sea and the land to make one proselyte; and when he is made, you make him the child of hell twofold more than yourselves. "
 
Brothers and Sisters, be at peace! The OP is not asking you to use the name Allah. He (and others) are explaining why we should not hate the name, or overreact when someone else uses the name.

On the first Pentecost, when the apostles spoke in many languages, is it possible some people heard “Allah” and were saved?
 
Thank you, you brave CAF moderators, for having the courage to boldly:
  • Silence debate
  • Punish traditional Catholic thought
  • Impede the charitable act of fraternal correction
  • Anathematize the language of our Catholic patrimony
    To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin: Those who would sacrifice truth for charity possess neither.
    "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you go round about the sea and the land to make one proselyte; and when he is made, you make him the child of hell twofold more than yourselves. "
Okay first, I think Benjamin Franklin said sacrifice freedom for security, not Truth for Charity, and he said “deserve neither”, not “posses neither”, totally not a paraphrase but a rewording. At least get your facts straight.

Second, I think you are overreacting, it would be
helpful if I knew what you were talking about so
that we can understand these charges.
 
brothers and sisters, be at peace! The op is not asking you to use the name allah. He (and others) are explaining why we should not hate the name, or overreact when someone else uses the name.

On the first pentecost, when the apostles spoke in many languages, is it possible some people heard “allah” and were saved?
THANK YOU! http://www.empowernetwork.com/imagine/files/2012/11/smiley-face-thumbs-up1.png

Finally someone says it! 😃
That is the EXACTLY point of this thread. 🙂
If it helps extending on the Apostles, even
St. Paul himself retired to Arabia a while .
 
Thank you, you brave CAF moderators, for having the courage to boldly:
  • Silence debate
  • Punish traditional Catholic thought
  • Impede the charitable act of fraternal correction
  • Anathematize the language of our Catholic patrimony
To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin: Those who would sacrifice truth for charity possess neither.

"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you go round about the sea and the land to make one proselyte; and when he is made, you make him the child of hell twofold more than yourselves. "
Fisheaters calling?
:rolleyes:
 
If it would be outrageous for a Catholic priest to refer to God as Allah in the mass, then it probably would be outrageous for a Catholic to do the same in other contexts.

Allah refers to a completely different idea of God. Allah is not the Trinity. Allah is not Love. It doesn’t make any sense to me for Catholics to refer to God as Allah.
Not if the priest is celebrating Mass in Arabic.
 
You don’t go into a Byzantine Church, Melkite Church or other Catholic Church and insist on Roman Rite practices do you?

Different people have different customs and to complain, like the OP, that [Western] Catholics are shunning Arab Christians because they don’t use the word “Allah” is plainly wrong.
Get over it Brian…Allah if a perfectly good word to refer to God! Keep your bigoted notions to yourself…Allah Akbar! 😃

From a good Catholic!
 
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