For Catholics who support the death penalty

[Love_God_Too]

Don’t you just find it fascinating that the entire basis of our faith is an unjust execution by the state, namely JESUS, and there are still people trying to rationalize it’s use. Amazing yet incredibly sad.

 

[Shin]

Because he personally doesn’t like it, and believes it should be rare?

 

[mitex]

Don’t you just find it fascinating that the entire basis of our faith is an unjust execution by the state, namely JESUS, and there are still people trying to rationalize it’s use. Amazing yet incredibly sad.

 

[Corki]

Uh oh I think you need to tell the 54% to 45% majority of Catholics that voted for Obama. Note the link below to the Washington Times. Not your liberal news media, just to stop ya before you use that reply.

washingtontimes.com/news/2008/nov/07/catholic-voters-heavily-favored-obama-analysis-sho/?page=all

You know what they say about statistics, don’t you? Since only about a quarter of Catholics attend Mass every Sunday, that 54% sounds pretty good. It means that over 20% of Catholics who don’t even follow the Church on Mass attendance still know an intrinsic evil when they see one. (I’m not calling Obama an intrinsic evil, BTW, just some of the things he supports)

That article actually said nothing to refute what MidnightSun posted. Did you put in the wrong link?

 

[Hokomai]

As an outsider, it seems to me that the Church developed a new framework about the sanctity of life as a result of its intense efforts in the 20th century to oppose abortion. It also, as a result of reflection on World War ll and the holocaust, rethought about war. The Church will go to great lengths to avoid saying it has changed its teaching, so continues to argue that the death penalty is technically ok (not an intrinsic) evil. It has no such problems with abortion, because of the (fairly) consistent teaching against it. However, in the case of capital punishment it seems to me that the Church has done everything it possibly can within its “we don’t change our teaching” framework to make it clear that Catholics should oppose the death penalty, and certainly as it is practised in the United States. I think this results from genuine reflection on the significance of life itself, and is not simply a political expedient to make the anti-abortion argument easier, but it does have that effect. Every Catholic supporter of the death penalty helps the argument for legal abortion, because the belief is interpreted as hypocrisy.

 

[Brendan]

I happen to agree with absolutely everthing that Cardinal Dulles states here.

Considering that he was one of the primary authors of the current Catechism, and that Pope John Paul II entered Cardinal Dulles into the College of Cardinals specifically due to his skill as a theologian, I would seem that he would be stating the Church’s position

catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0461.html

 

[MidnightSun12]

I’ve always wondered how someone can claim to be pro-life yet support the death penalty.

Apparently, pro-life ideology only includes innocent, cute babies. And not people accused of crimes.

I just can’t see where anybody on here is supporting the death penalty. I think all we’re trying to say is that it is not ALWAYS wrong which is exactly the church’s position.

I, personally, find the idea of the lethal injection for serious offenders in our modern society to be quite troubling. But let me be clear that this issue is like a splinter in my thumb compared to the evils of abortion.

 

[Brendan]

This is what the Jews said to Pilate.

And it’s what St. Paul said to the whole Church

For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it, for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer

-Romans 13:3-5

And the Council of Trent noted the same thing

On the 5th Commandment

Execution Of Criminals

Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder.

The end of the Commandment is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord.

 

[Corki]

Well all know, it’s not okay to bomb an abortion clinic/planned parenthood or shoot an abortion doctor. But for Pro-Death Penalty Catholics, why is it okay to execute a criminal? I mean their both “murderers” by Catholic standard, right?

Not really. To bomb an abortion clinic or to shoot a “doctor” is vigilantism. The Church never approves of that.

But the real difference is that the Church makes a distinction between personal sin and the immoral positions of the state. To procure an abortion or to commit abortion is a personal sin. To execute a criminal is the act of the state.

Don’t you just find it fascinating that the entire basis of our faith is an unjust execution by the state, namely JESUS, and there are still people trying to rationalize it’s use. Amazing yet incredibly sad.

Not nearly as facinating (or frightening) as seeing that some people think that the crucifiction of Jesus is the entire basis of our faith. That’s an important part of our faith but nowhere near “the entire basis”.

I happen to agree with absolutely everthing that Cardinal Dulles states here.

Considering that he was one of the primary authors of the current Catechism, and that Pope John Paul II entered Cardinal Dulles into the College of Cardinals specifically due to his skill as a theologian, I would seem that he would be stating the Church’s position

catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0461.html

This is one of my favorite writings on the topic. The important point is that even if you disagree with the death penalty being used, even if you (as the last two Popes did) believe it should be legislatively abolished, it is not a “right to life” issue.

 

[LemonAndLime]

I just can’t see where anybody on here is supporting the death penalty. I think all we’re trying to say is that it is not ALWAYS wrong which is exactly the church’s position.

I, personally, find the idea of the lethal injection for serious offenders in our modern society to be quite troubling. But let me be clear that this issue is like a splinter in my thumb compared to the evils of abortion.

You haven’t been on this forum long.

 

[Brendan]

The one thing that I have noticed in my short time on CAF is that it doesn’t represent the average Catholic by any stretch of the imagination. Many members here remind be of the High Priests during the time of Jesus.

Why, because we look to and adhere to what the Church actually teaches?

First lets look at Pope John Paul II Evangelicum Vitae on the obligations of the State

But any State which made such a request legitimate and authorized it to be carried out would be legalizing a case of suicide-murder, contrary to the fundamental principles of absolute respect for life and of the protection of every innocent life.

Note that the State is obliged to protect ‘innocent’ life. Ergo, Laws promoting abortion are contrarty to the Church’st teaching. But the obligtion is to innocent life.

Note what Pope Pius XII said in an address to the medical community

Even when it is a question of the execution of a condemned man, the state does not dispose of the individual’s right to life. In this case it is reserved to the public power to deprive the condemned person of the enjoyment of life in expiation of his crime when, by his crime, he has already disposed himself of his right to live.

“The Moral Limits of Medical Research and Treatment,” by Pope Pius XII, 1952

So no one’s right to life in violated when the guilty are executed. That is certainly NOT true in the cases of abortion.

 

[Love_God_Too]

You know what they say about statistics, don’t you? Since only about a quarter of Catholics attend Mass every Sunday

Where can I find that statistic? Oh wait what did you just say about statistics?

That article actually said nothing to refute what MidnightSun posted. Did you put in the wrong link?

Read further back to find John Paul’s letter calling for the end to capital punishment. The Washington Times article only references that the majority of Catholics don’t believe that the Republican Party is part of their faith.

 

[Love_God_Too]

“The Moral Limits of Medical Research and Treatment,” by Pope Pius XII, 1952

WOW, had to go back to 1952 for support of that position. Again I refer you back to the posted link of soon to be Saint John Paul’s letter related to capital punishment.

 

[Corki]

Read further back to find John Paul’s letter calling for the end to capital punishment. The Washington Times article only refernces that the majority of Catholics don’t believe that the Republican Party is part of their faith.

You posted that link to refute MidnightSun’s post. His post stated (and I paraphrase) that the two major US political policies have staked out platforms that each conform or dissent from different parts of Catholic social teaching. And that one party has advocated positions that are intrinsically evil. Your link had nothing to do with that.

Yes, Pope John Paul II advocated for an end to captial punishment. Is anyone questioning that? Not that I have seen. At best, the case you are making is that Pope John Paul’s objection to capital punishment trumps the other 2000 years of church teaching on the same and other issues. I think that’s a weak argument, personally.

And, for the record, I am against capital punishment in the US. But that doesn’t mean I am willing to use poor logic or theology to support that position.

 

[Love_God_Too]

Not nearly as facinating (or frightening) as seeing that some people think that the crucifiction of Jesus is the entire basis of our faith. That’s an important part of our faith but nowhere near “the entire basis”.

So you don’t buy into the importance of his unjust death for our sins thing? Hmmmmmm I always thought that was the main point…

 

[MidnightSun12]

WOW, had to go back to 1952 for support of that position. Again I refer you back to the posted link of soon to be Saint John Paul’s letter related to capital punishment.

A particular action that was permissable 50 years ago will be permissable for all time (ie. the morality of a specific action doesn’t depend on what year it occured). What has changed is the social welfare of our society and our improved ability to contain and treat dangerous offenders (which is consistent with the Vatican’s growing opposition to the death penalty, ie… the stastical likelihood of capital punishment being necessary is decreasing).

What that quote does show is that the death penalty is not intrinsically evil. On the other hand, you should never be able to find an instance in catholic history where a pope has condoned an abortion for any circumstance.

 

[grasscutter]

I’m not trying to be all silly and controversial or anything. But consider this… if someone is against abortion (pro-life) but supports the death penalty… what if an unborn child was going to grow up into a heinous serial killer? Killing them before birth would be wrong, but later on okay? I’m just saying that I don’t get the inconsistency. In any case, I believe capital punishment robs a human being of the chance to repent. Maybe 99 won’t, but 1 will… We should always hope.

 

[Love_God_Too]

You posted that link to refute MidnightSun’s post. His post stated (and I paraphrase) that the two major US political policies have staked out platforms that each conform or dissent from different parts of Catholic social teaching. And that one party has advocated positions that are intrinsically evil. Your link had nothing to do with that.

Yes, Pope John Paul II advocated for an end to captial punishment. Is anyone questioning that? Not that I have seen. At best, the case you are making is that Pope John Paul’s objection to capital punishment trumps the other 2000 years of church teaching on the same and other issues. I think that’s a weak argument, personally.

And, for the record, I am against capital punishment in the US. But that doesn’t mean I am willing to use poor logic or theology to support that position.

So much for soon to be Saint John Paul’s opinion I guess. The Church used to torture people too, are you OK with that? That lasted for hundreds of years, does that trump John Paul’s point?

I personally do not worship at the alter of the Republican Party. They claim to be pro-life but never do anything about it. We have a 5 to 4 Republican Supreme Court for how long now? George Bush controlled all houses of government for 6 of his 8 years and he did what related to abortion?

I’m sorry I believe that party dupes people while they fleece the poor, start endless war, bankrupts the country and says praise God while they do it. To me that is the work of a Pharisee.

 

[Brendan]

WOW, had to go back to 1952 for support of that position.

That is the great thing about the Catholic Church, we know that moral truth is unchanging. Therefore we know that what was true in 1952 was true in AD 52 and will be true in 5252

Again I refer you back to the posted link of soon to be Saint John Paul’s letter related to capital punishment.

I am quite familiar with it and I don’t see anything that was contrary to anything that I have posted. If you feel that is so, please post what Pope John Paul II said vs any of my links or quotes,

 

[Corki]

So much for soon to be Saint John Paul’s opinion I guess.

I didn’t say that at all. But as you point out, it was his opinion. An opinion that we give special weight to - absolutely. But not an official restatement of Church teaching nor even a statement binding on the faithful. He carefully phrased it as opinon.

The Church used to torture people too, are you OK with that?

That’s debatable and not relevant.

That lasted for hundreds of years, does that trump John Paul’s point?

Not at all. But we have centuries of Church teaching. You can’t revise your whole theology on the basis of papal opinion alone.

I personally do not worship at the alter of the Republican Party. They claim to be pro-life but never do anything about it. We have a 5 to 4 Republican Supreme Court for how long now? George Bush controlled all houses of government for 6 of his 8 years and he did what related to abortion?

ok, I don’t agree with most of this but even if were true, it doesn’t change the fact that abortion is **always wrong **and that politicians who support abortion are always wrong and that it is **always wrong **to aide them in that support. The party platform is not a magical spell but it does matter. The platform of one party seeks to protect life; the platform of the other major party seeks to make it easier to end unborn life. That’s not an insignificant difference.

I’m sorry I believe that party dupes people while they fleece the poor, start endless war, bankrupts the country and says praise God while they do it.

Absolutely. But right now, that describes both major parties so it doesn’t help when making choices, does it?

To me that is the work of a Pharisee

You think the Pharisees were the bad guys, don’t you? There were some bad Pharisees but as a group, they were just hyper-observant Jews who wanted to get thier people to heaven. It is only the ones who were hypocritical about it that Jesus condemned.