For Catholics who support the death penalty

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Brendan said:
That is the great thing about the Catholic Church, we know that moral truth is unchanging. Therefore we know that what was true in 1952 was true in AD 52 and will be true in 5252 🙂

I am quite familiar with it and I don’t see anything that was contrary to anything that I have posted. If you feel that is so, please post what Pope John Paul II said vs any of my links or quotes,
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I also refer you to the US conference of Bishops campaign to end capital punishment.

old.usccb.org/deathpenalty/dpstatements.shtml
 
grasscutter said:
I’m not trying to be all silly and controversial or anything. But consider this… if someone is against abortion (pro-life) but supports the death penalty… what if an unborn child was going to grow up into a heinous serial killer? Killing them before birth would be wrong, but later on okay? I’m just saying that I don’t get the inconsistency. In any case, I believe capital punishment robs a human being of the chance to repent. Maybe 99 won’t, but 1 will… We should always hope.
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I agree with part of what you’re saying here. If we have the ability to safely house a dangerous offender, it is our duty as christians to do so and to provide opportunities for the mental and spiritual rehabilitation of that prisoner. I don’t want to see anybody… even those who commit the most hideous acts to spend an eternity burning in fire because they didn’t have the opportunity to turn away from sin.

But, unfortunately, there have been times in our past when we haven’t had very effective means to contain criminals and there may be times in future when this will be the case again. Remember, we not only have to protect innocent citizens from a convicted murderer but we also have to think about the safety of other inmates. How could it possibly be moral for us to endanger the lives of numerous people in the interest of perserving a single life? This situation can also happen with POW’s during times of war.

This is why the church does not intrinsically condemn the death penalty. There are and always will be those unfortunate situations where it is the ONLY moral course of action to protect the greater number of lives.
 
Brendan said:
That is the great thing about the Catholic Church, we know that moral truth is unchanging. Therefore we know that what was true in 1952 was true in AD 52 and will be true in 5252
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You need to read your Catholic History Book.
 
The thing is, for me, it’s an absolute. (Excluding, of course, self-defense and the defense of others in clear and present danger.) Either human life is sacred or it’s not.
 
MidnightSun12 said:
I agree with part of what you’re saying here. If we have the ability to safely house a dangerous offender, it is our duty as christians to do so and to provide opportunities for the mental and spiritual rehabilitation of that prisoner. I don’t want to see anybody… even those who commit the most hideous acts to spend an eternity burning in fire because they didn’t have the opportunity to turn away from sin.

But, unfortunately, there have been times in our past when we haven’t had very effective means to contain criminals and there may be times in future when this will be the case again. Remember, we not only have to protect innocent citizens from a convicted murderer but we also have to think about the safety of other inmates. How could it possibly be moral for us to endanger the lives of numerous people in the interest of perserving a single life? This situation can also happen with POW’s during times of war.

This is why the church does not intrinsically condemn the death penalty. There are and always will be those unfortunate situations where it is the ONLY moral course of action to protect the greater number of lives.
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That is the most absurd logic I have ever heard. How many death row inmates do you know of that escaped in the US? Not to mention it costs more than 10 times as much to execute them than to house them for life. That is tortured logic at best. Pun definitely intended. I wonder what Jesus would feel about the state of Texas? Hmmmm
 
The only reason for supporting the death penalty is this:

Charls Manson is coming up for parole for the 12th time.

Some friends of mine had the daughter murdered, along with a series of other women whom he had dated. The murderer comes up for parole periodically. He is unrepentant. Each time, they must make a trip to the prison to testify against parole. So do the other parents.

One can say that the death penalty is never necessary if there is life without parole. And I agree. But that’s no good unless it is put into effect.

The 13th or 14th time Charles Manson comes up for parole, perhaps he will be approved.
 
How could it possibly be moral for us to endanger the lives of numerous people in the interest of perserving a single life?
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As to that, consider the times that Jesus spoke about leaving the entire flock to find one, or the woman who rejoiced at (after a thorough search) found the one coin she had lost, etc.
 
grasscutter said:
The thing is, for me, it’s an absolute. (Excluding, of course, self-defense and the defense of others in clear and present danger.) Either human life is sacred or it’s not.
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The key phrase here being “for me”. That’s not the position of the Church. The Church’s position has always been to favor the life of the innocent and the vulnerable. All life IS sacred but the duty to protect life is not an absolute.
 
Corki said:
The key phrase here being “for me”. That’s not the position of the Church. The Church’s position has always been to favor the life of the innocent and the vulnerable. All life IS sacred but the duty to protect life is not an absolute.
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Except, if someone is safely incarcerated, they are not endangering human life.

I know that lives are endangered in prison, but that’s also across the board. Thieves, drug dealers, child pornographers, etc. But these are people that wouldn’t be exposed to the death penalty anyway.
 
Love_God_Too said:
That is the most absurd logic I have ever heard. How many death row inmates do you know of that escaped in the US? Not to mention it costs more than 10 times as much to execute them than to house them for life. That is tortured logic at best. Pun definitely intended. I wonder what Jesus would feel about the state of Texas? Hmmmm
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Well, only a few years ago, two prisoners - one a convicted murderer - escaped a prison not far from me (in Texas) and murdered a guard. Then they murdered someone for a car and terrorized several other families before they were caught. And even in Texas, the death penalty is applied very, very rarely so that crack wasn’t really appropriate. Jesus isn’t about the numbers, you know.

Careful with the claim about the cost, too. That just leads politicians to streamline the process from sentencing to execution. That “10 times” number isn’t even the average any more since some states have limited appeals.
 
grasscutter said:
Except, if someone is safely incarcerated, they are not endangering human life.
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Hopefully. And I think we will be there someday in the near future. Unfortunately, in the US today, we still have violent criminals directing crime and ordering hits from within their cells. The “human rights” activists won’t let the system curtail their contact with their gangs. 😦 And we still have a huge amount of prison violence against prison workers (who are innocents) and other criminals.

I think that we are moving in the right direction. I personally am against the death penalty but for other reasons. Therefore, I hope we move to that goal quickly even though we are not quite there yet.
 
Corki said:
I didn’t say that at all. :mad: But as you point out, it was his opinion. An opinion that we give special weight to - absolutely. But not an official restatement of Church teaching nor even a statement binding on the faithful. He carefully phrased it as opinon.

That’s debatable and not relevant.

Not at all. But we have centuries of Church teaching. You can’t revise your whole theology on the basis of papal opinion alone.

ok, I don’t agree with most of this but even if were true, it doesn’t change the fact that abortion is **always wrong **and that politicians who support abortion are always wrong and that it is **always wrong **to aide them in that support. The party platform is not a magical spell but it does matter. The platform of one party seeks to protect life; the platform of the other major party seeks to make it easier to end unborn life. That’s not an insignificant difference.

Absolutely. But right now, that describes both major parties so it doesn’t help when making choices, does it?

You think the Pharisees were the bad guys, don’t you? There were some bad Pharisees but as a group, they were just hyper-observant Jews who wanted to get thier people to heaven. It is only the ones who were hypocritical about it that Jesus condemned.
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The pharisees were the bad guys duh silly! 😛
 
Corki said:
Well, only a few years ago, two prisoners - one a convicted murderer - escaped a prison not far from me (in Texas) and murdered a guard. Then they murdered someone for a car and terrorized several other families before they were caught. And even in Texas, the death penalty is applied very, very rarely so that crack wasn’t really appropriate. Jesus isn’t about the numbers, you know.

Careful with the claim about the cost, too. That just leads politicians to streamline the process from sentencing to execution. That “10 times” number isn’t even the average any more since some states have limited appeals.
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There are the appeals, the cost of the trial itself, the cost of keeping them on death row too.

However, Jesus may be about the facts. Murder rates are higher in states that have the death penalty. So does it really work as a deterrent?
 
Corki said:
Well, only a few years ago, two prisoners - one a convicted murderer - escaped a prison not far from me (in Texas) and murdered a guard. Then they murdered someone for a car and terrorized several other families before they were caught. And even in Texas, the death penalty is applied very, very rarely so that crack wasn’t really appropriate. Jesus isn’t about the numbers, you know.

Careful with the claim about the cost, too. That just leads politicians to streamline the process from sentencing to execution. That “10 times” number isn’t even the average any more since some states have limited appeals.
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You are kidding right? Texas kills more people than the rest of the country combined. I direct you to the Innocence Project and their take on Texas. They have released countless numbers of people slated to die through DNA evidence. How many innocent people are OK to die in your book? None in mine…

As far as politicians streamlining the justice process, that’s your party not mine.

innocenceproject.org/Content/New_Research_Illustrates_Lack_of__Accountability_for_Prosecutors_in_Texas.php
 
Love_God_Too said:
You are kidding right? Texas kills more people than the rest of the country combined. I direct you to the Innocence Project and their take on Texas. They have released countless numbers of people slated to die through DNA evidence. How many innocent people are OK to die in your book? None in mine…

innocenceproject.org/Content/New_Research_Illustrates_Lack_of__Accountability_for_Prosecutors_in_Texas.php
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None in mine, either. It’s actually a thought that haunts me. Mainly because it’s not that rare.
 
Love_God_Too said:
You are kidding right? Texas kills more people than the rest of the country combined. I direct you to the Innocence Project and their take on Texas. They have released countless numbers of people slated to die through DNA evidence. How many innocent people are OK to die in your book? None in mine…

As far as politicians streamlining the justice process, that’s your party not mine.

innocenceproject.org/Content/New_Research_Illustrates_Lack_of__Accountability_for_Prosecutors_in_Texas.php
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Texas is a big state. It is still a very, very small number of convicted murderers.

And yes, the fact that some people get executed when they are in fact innocent is a very good reason to oppose the death penalty (and one of the reasons I do). However, it isn’t a theological reason. Also, if you hang your hat on that one, you would have to support the death penalty in cases with solid DNA evidence supporting the conviction. Not a comfortable place to be.
As far as politicians streamlining the justice process, that’s your party not mine.
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You are obviously not still talking about Texas. 🙂 It’s not a matter of party. My point is that if your argument is cost, it is just as easy to bring the cost of execution closer to or even lower than the cost of life time incarceration. Would you then favor a wider application of the death penalty? I don’t think so - which makes it a poor argument logically.
 
The primary danger posed by imprisoned killers is parole.
Quite often murderers have been set free and have killed again.
The question is: Is allowing subsequent killings by paroled prisoners moral? Is it worse than the death penalty?
wesleylowe.com/repoff.html
 
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