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Fr. John and Cavaradossi-

If someone is baptized as an infant in the Catholic Church, is that baptism valid?

If someone is baptized using water and the Trinitarian formula in the Methodist Church, is that baptism valid?

Finally, if someone is baptized in the Methodist Church as an infant and then conditionally baptized at the time of reception into the Catholic Church as an adult, is that baptism valid?
The Eastern Orthodox Church does not have the practice of conditional Baptism.
The answer to your question is that the Baptism of the Catholic Church is more valid than Methodist Baptism, because the Catholic Church is closer to the Orthodox Church, but the Methodist Baptism is not completely invalid. Both a Roman Catholic and a Methodist who was Baptized with the proper Trinitarian formula would be received into the Orthodox Church through Chrismation by most Eastern Orthodox Bishops.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
baptism by immersion is the only way unless it isn’t physically possible.
The very Word Baptism Means** Immersion**.

How Can Anyone Be Immersed (Baptised)Without Being Immersed? Can Anyone Be Obese Without Being Fat?
 
The very Word Baptism Means** Immersion**.

How Can Anyone Be Immersed (Baptised)Without Being Immersed? Can Anyone Be Obese Without Being Fat?
That is correct, the word Baptism means being immersed. However, it is not always possible to immerse someone. It is a face that the Eastern Orthodox Church has always allowed emergency Baptism by whatever means are possible. It is also true that the Eastern Orthodox Church has received converts from Catholicism and Protestantism for centuries who were not immersed by Chrismation through the principle of economy.

Archpriest John
 
The Word Baptism Means Immersion. If One Hadn’t Been Fully Immersed 3 Times In The Name Of The Father, Son & Holy Spirit, How Could Anyone Come To The Conclusion That That One Had Ever Been Baptized?

Certain Bishops Forbid Catholics Or Protestants From Being Baptized At Conversion To Orthodoxy Because Of Ecumenism, But The Monasteries Will Correct That Error So The Person Can Have A Baptism Into The Ancient Christian Faith.
t.
Before you post something on a site like this, you need to be sure that you are correctly representing the teaching of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Your post does not accurately express the doctrine and practice of the Eastern Orthodox Church.
The reception of a convert who was not immersed when they were Baptized outside of the Orthodox Church by Chrismation has nothing to do with ecumenism. It is the most common and historical practice of the Eastern Orthodox Church and was mandated pan Orthodox Councils long before the birth of ecumenism. Chrismation perfects whatever was lacking in the non-Orthodox Baptism. The canons give the Bishops the authority to interpret the canon law, not monastics.
Any monk or priest who re-Baptizes someone who has entered the Orthodox Church through Chrismation is committing a terrible heresy, because they are denying the grace that they have received at their Chrismation and through the Eucharist. Let me as clear as possible, the practice of so called corrective Baptism is heretical. Just because someone is a monk does not mean that they are trained in Eastern Orthodox Theology. Some well meaning but misinformed monastics are causing a great deal of trouble in the American Orthodox Church. I tell any member of my parish visiting a monastery to be very careful not to let the monks or nuns confuse them with false teaching and under no circumstance to go to Confession at certain monasteries.
The Bishops are the consecrated keepers of the Faith of the Church, not monastics, who should mind their own business and learn obedience to the proper authorities of the Church, the Bishops. They should also show proper respect for the local Pastors and not undermine them by introducing such un Orthodox ideas that a person who was received by Chrismation is not fully Orthodox.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
Fr. John and Cavaradossi-

If someone is baptized as an infant in the Catholic Church, is that baptism valid?

If someone is baptized using water and the Trinitarian formula in the Methodist Church, is that baptism valid?

Finally, if someone is baptized in the Methodist Church as an infant and then conditionally baptized at the time of reception into the Catholic Church as an adult, is that baptism valid?
Yes, valid insofar as such baptisms are defective and may be perfected by the Church, as opposed to invalid baptisms which cannot be perfected just through one’s reception into the Church, but must be iterated, either due to some error in the form of the baptism, or sometimes because of particularly heretical views.
 
Yes, valid insofar as such baptisms are defective and may be perfected by the Church, as opposed to invalid baptisms which cannot be perfected just through one’s reception into the Church, but must be iterated, either due to some error in the form of the baptism, or sometimes because of particularly heretical views.
The only from of Baptism absolutely required by the Eastern Orthodox Church is the use of water, and the correct words, “In the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” In cases of extreme emergency, if water cannot be found and a person is in danger of immediate death, even water is not necessary. Triple immersion is the norm, but even Eastern Orthodox sometimes Baptize adults by pouring water on their head three times.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
The only from of Baptism absolutely required by the Eastern Orthodox Church is the use of water, and the correct words, “In the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” In cases of extreme emergency, if water cannot be found and a person is in danger of immediate death, even water is not necessary. Triple immersion is the norm, but even Eastern Orthodox sometimes Baptize adults by pouring water on their head three times.

Archpriest John W. Morris
Again, Father John, I never restricted proper form to triple immersion. By improper form I mean a baptism like the non-trinitarian baptisms which the Jehovah’s Witnesses supposedly perform, or a baptism of one immersion alone, like the Eunomians.
 
Baptism Means Immersion.

On The Occassion Of Some Cccepting Baptism On Their Death Bed And it’s Impossible To Get That Person Into Water To BaptiZe (Immerse) Then Pouring Is An Acceptible Alternative To Baptism In That Rare Situation.

It’s ThE Orthodox Church (Canons & Fathers) That Are To Be Followed, Not Any one Fallible Person. In Our Current Times Many Of The Monastics Mothers and Fathers are Keeping The True Faith While Many, But Not All, Bishops aren’t. We Follow The Church.
As an Antiochian Orthodox Archpriest and graduate of an Orthodox seminary, I find your comment very offensive. Many Eastern Orthodox Bishops are not violating the Faith of the Church. They are the divinely appointed leaders of the Church, not monastics. Some, not all, of whom are not teaching sound Orthodoxy.
It is not up to monastics to determine what is and what is not the True Faith. That authority belongs to the Bishops who are successors to the Apostles. The canons are very clear, monastics are to stay in their monasteries and are not to cause problems in the Church by challenging the authority of the Bishops or undermining the authority of the Pastor of a parish to take care of his flock by challenging his teaching or his practices if he is following the instructions of his Bishop.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
The Esphigmenou monks were sent eviction notices but last time I heard they have not actually left their monastery, although this particular case in point deals not with their monastery building but with their building in Karyes. They do not view the Ecumenical Patriarch as heretical for his dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church, rather they have viewed the past Ecumenical Patriarchs as heretical for the Patriarchs’ involvement with a heresy known as Ecumenism. While the majority of those on Mt. Athos are in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch, Esphigmenou monastery is the only monastery that isn’t along with various sketes who aren’t as well.
Ecumenism as practiced by the Eastern Orthodox Church is not an heresy. I suggest that before you make an accusation like that you actually read some of the documents presented by Orthodox during ecumenical encounters. The major problem with the anti-ecumenists is that they do not distinguish between the Orthodox attitude towards ecumenism and Protestant based ecumenism. Orthodox have a completely different definition of ecumenism than Protestants and always insists that unity can only take place on the basis of complete acceptance of the teachings of the ancient undivided Church of the Holy Fathers and the 7 Ecumenical Councils. Unlike the anti-ecumenists, I have actually represented the Orthodox Church in ecumenical meetings and dialogues. I can assure you from personal experience that we do not compromise the Orthodox Faith in any way by talking with non-Orthodox. All the stories being circulated by some anti-ecumenists are gross exaggerations, half truths or outright lies.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
So if I stopped by an Orthodox church on a Saturday afternoon…just to look around quietly and respectfully…what would happen?

If I went to the Divine Liturgy on a Sunday morning and sat in the back row following along as best I could…not receiving the sacrament, of course…what would happen?
In my parish you would be welcomed. If you attended the Sunday morning Divine Liturgy, you would be invited to the coffee hour. I am quite sure that the same thing would happen in most if not all Eastern Orthodox Churches.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
The thumbs up was a way of acknowledging that she did not accuse the modern Armenians of Monophysitism, and trying to end an argument before it began. As I said, I didn’t want to derail the thread; I just wanted to make sure nobody mistook the OO for Monophysites. I probably could’ve done it in a better way than a thumbs up though, so I apologize for the misunderstanding.
The problem is that OO accuse the Council of Chalcedon of Nestorianism which it was not. if you actually read the acts of the council, you will see that the declaration of Chalcedon, the 4th Ecumenical Council in 451, was based partially on the Tome of Leo, but also on the Letter of St. Cyril of Alexandria to Patriarch John of Antioch. Because of this misunderstanding, the 5th Ecumenical Council, Constantinople II in 553, made it clear that Chalcedon is to be interpreted in conformity with the Christology of St. Cyril of Alexandria, who was the chief foe of Nestorianism. Therefore, it is inaccurate to accuse the Council of Chalcedon of surrendering to Nestorianism.

Archpriest John W. Morris
 
As an Antiochian Orthodox Archpriest and graduate of an Orthodox seminary, I find your comment very offensive. Many Eastern Orthodox Bishops are not violating the Faith of the Church. They are the divinely appointed leaders of the Church, not monastics. Some, not all, of whom are not teaching sound Orthodoxy.
It is not up to monastics to determine what is and what is not the True Faith. That authority belongs to the Bishops who are successors to the Apostles. The canons are very clear, monastics are to stay in their monasteries and are not to cause problems in the Church by challenging the authority of the Bishops or undermining the authority of the Pastor of a parish to take care of his flock by challenging his teaching or his practices if he is following the instructions of his Bishop.

Archpriest John W. Morris
👍👍 And very Catholic too. Religous monks, brothers and sisters should not challenge/interfere with the authority of the Bishop nor should they introduce their spirituality without the consent and agreement of the local ordinaries. For the most part, the clear dividing line between the religious and the hierachy is understood very well in the Catholic Church and religous priests if they want to serve in the parishes should toe the Bishop’s line as the immediate authority over them and not their religous congregation.
 
Ecumenism as practiced by the Eastern Orthodox Church is not an heresy. I suggest that before you make an accusation like that you actually read some of the documents presented by Orthodox during ecumenical encounters. The major problem with the anti-ecumenists is that they do not distinguish between the Orthodox attitude towards ecumenism and Protestant based ecumenism. Orthodox have a completely different definition of ecumenism than Protestants and always insists that unity can only take place on the basis of complete acceptance of the teachings of the ancient undivided Church of the Holy Fathers and the 7 Ecumenical Councils. Unlike the anti-ecumenists, I have actually represented the Orthodox Church in ecumenical meetings and dialogues. I can assure you from personal experience that we do not compromise the Orthodox Faith in any way by talking with non-Orthodox. All the stories being circulated by some anti-ecumenists are gross exaggerations, half truths or outright lies.

Archpriest John W. Morris
I have respect for you father and while I do not know you, I take you for your word that you have been to ecumenical meetings and have not compromised the Orthodox faith by your talks. I personally do not think talking with others of different religions in-and-of itself makes one compromise the Orthodox faith. While I understand what you are saying about Protestant based Ecumenism and the Orthodox attitude towards Ecumenism, I have seen otherwise. For example the World Council of Churches have produced statements which completely contradict the Orthodox attitude towards Ecumenism and yet there are Orthodox churches who are members of the WCC. The Serbian Patriarch in 2010 went to a Jewish synagogue and lit a candle on the menorah which goes against the canons of the Church. The Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew has given Korans out to Muslim leaders as well as a more recent Greek Metropolitan of Komotini giving one to a Muslim cleric. There are often times joint prayer services with clergy from World Orthodoxy, the non-Chalcedonians, and the Roman Catholics, etc.

What are the Orthodox at these Ecumenical ventures trying to achieve? We are called to speak the truth in love in order to bring people to Christ through the Orthodox Church. These events aren’t bringing people to Jesus Christ through the Orthodox Church. By participating in these events it’s making Orthodoxy into just another nice religion where we can meet other religious leaders and talk about our similarities and differences. While it’s important to understand other religions and not base our views regarding them on misinformation, we are called to be holy, set apart. We should not have as our goal to peacefully coexist with other religions; our goal is to be united to Christ and to bring others into unity with Christ. These Ecumenical ventures do not have this as their goal.

And while talking with non-Orthodox is not a heresy, the heresy is when the Orthodox are willing to water down of the Orthodox faith and praxis, or teach things that are completely contrary to the Orthodox faith and praxis, in order to appeal in an accepting and loving manner to those who are not Orthodox in an effort to form some sort of religious union with the non-Orthodox.
 
What are the Orthodox at these Ecumenical ventures trying to achieve? We are called to speak the truth in love in order to bring people to Christ through the Orthodox Church.
We have Catholics who take on this line too but Christianity is to bring forth the peace of Christ. If you don’t do that but paint a dark picture by being elitist and exclusive, you have failed to be the light of Jesus. The truth, the love of God, that we preach is not just talk but by our action too. How could we bring Christ to our Church if we do not bring Him to the people first? How could we bring Christ to the church if we paint a reclusive and segregated picture of Christ? How could they know Christ if we do not bring Christ to them as He is?
These events aren’t bringing people to Jesus Christ through the Orthodox Church.
Nor does the Orthodox Church live in isolation. If she does not acknowledge that there are people of different belief around them then how can she knows that there are people that need to be brought to the church? You can’t bring people to your church without first knowing that there exist such people and to reach out to them. What is important is that in doing so she does not lose her identity.
By participating in these events it’s making Orthodoxy into just another nice religion where we can meet other religious leaders and talk about our similarities and differences. While it’s important to understand other religions and not base our views regarding them on misinformation, we are called to be holy, set apart.
You mention the importance of such meeting and its purpose but how does that got to do with being called to be holy and to be set apart?
We should not have as our goal to peacefully coexist with other religions; our goal is to be united to Christ and to bring others into unity with Christ.
This is a distortion of Christianity and of Christ. There is no such thing as Christians should not peacefully co-exist with other religions. It is through peace that we can bring forth Jesus to them.
These Ecumenical ventures do not have this as their goal.
You have to define ecumenism and your understanding of it. From your post it seems you misunderstood it. Ecumenism does not mean to water down your own religion, lose it or to take on other religions.
And while talking with non-Orthodox is not a heresy, the heresy is when the Orthodox are willing to water down of the Orthodox faith and praxis, or teach things that are completely contrary to the Orthodox faith and praxis, in order to appeal in an accepting and loving manner to those who are not Orthodox in an effort to form some sort of religious union with the non-Orthodox.
But this is tantamount to surrendering your religious belief. I do not believe this is what ecumenism is all about; more so that those who participate in it would do so.
 
We have Catholics who take on this line too but Christianity is to bring forth the peace of Christ. If you don’t do that but paint a dark picture by being elitist and exclusive, you have failed to be the light of Jesus. The truth, the love of God, that we preach is not just talk but by our action too. How could we bring Christ to our Church if we do not bring Him to the people first? How could we bring Christ to the church if we paint a reclusive and segregated picture of Christ? How could they know Christ if we do not bring Christ to them as He is?
I almost entirely agree with what you are saying above. But there are times when Christ was not peaceful, as when he had to deal with the moneychangers in the temple. But yes, we are called to bring forth Christ. We are not called to be elitist and exclusive, but yet we are called to be holy as He is holy.
Nor does the Orthodox Church live in isolation. If she does not acknowledge that there are people of different belief around them then how can she knows that there are people that need to be brought to the church? You can’t bring people to your church without first knowing that there exist such people and to reach out to them. What is important is that in doing so she does not lose her identity.
I agree, the Orthodox Church should not live in isolation. She does have to acknowledge that there are people of different beliefs around or else it will be very difficult to bring people into the truth. Many of the saints learned about other religions when they encountered people of these religions in order to better understand them and bring them to Christ and His Church.
You mention the importance of such meeting and its purpose but how does that got to do with being called to be holy and to be set apart?
I’m not sure if I understand what you are asking here. I think that most, but not all, of these meetings (if we’re talking about meetings between Orthodox clergy and other religious leaders) that go on today are not beneficial to the Church because in most (but admitantly not all) cases they give off the impression that Orthodoxy is just another religion like any other religion. At worst, it is at these religious meetings where Orthodox leaders say and do things which are contrary to the Orthodox faith.
This is a distortion of Christianity and of Christ. There is no such thing as Christians should not peacefully co-exist with other religions. It is through peace that we can bring forth Jesus to them.
I did not say that Christians should not peacefully co-exist with other religions. I said:
We should not have as our goal to peacefully coexist with other religions; our goal is to be united to Christ and to bring others into unity with Christ.
You have to define ecumenism and your understanding of it. From your post it seems you misunderstood it. Ecumenism does not mean to water down your own religion, lose it or to take on other religions.
Sometimes it can get confusing on what one means when they say “ecumenism.” For instance, when one person discusses their religion with someone of a different religious belief, this is sometimes referred to as “ecumenism.” But when someone is discussing Ecumenism the heresy one is referring to the belief that one should water down their faith and praxis, or completely contradict and go against their faith and praxis, in order to achieve some sort of religious unity with those of another faith. For example, from the Orthodox perspective, Ecumenism the heresy would be me discussing my beliefs with my Pentecostal relative who thinks Jesus was only a man and not God when he died on the cross, finding a common ground between myself and this relative even though we have major disagreements on the Godhead of Jesus, and achieving some sort of unity where we may pray together and participate in each others services at both of our churches. This example of Ecumenism the heresy would be wrong for me to do because I am through my actions stating to my relative that it is no big deal that he/she doesn’t believe that Jesus was God when He was on the cross. I would be doing my relative a great disservice because through these actions I would in fact me leading her away from Christ.

Take for instance the Samaritans. The Samaritans were a people of Pagan and Jewish ancestry who were separate from the Jews but still had a devotion to God. Jesus actually gave a sermon titled “The Good Samaritan” where He recognizes the good deeds that a Samaritan man does for a Jewish man that had been mugged and who his fellow Jews did not care to help. But when a Samaritan woman came to Jesus and asked if the Samaritans or the Jews worshiped God correctly, Jesus replied that “You [as in the Samaritans] worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.” (John 4:22) He said this not to insult her but to bring her to the truth. And sure enough she ended up accepting this fact, recognized Jesus as the Christ, and is recognized as a saint of our Church with the name of St. Photini. That is how we as Orthodox Christians must be, standing firm for the truth and always loving God and our neighbor with the hope of being Christ-like to others in order to bring them closer to the Christ.
But this is tantamount to surrendering your religious belief. I do not believe this is what ecumenism is all about; more so that those who participate in it would do so.
Again, it depends on what one means by ecumenism and what one does at these ecumenical meetings.
 
Watering down the Faith would be wrong and offensive, if that is what is occurring…but I don’t think that is the case. Hurling internet anathemas is very dangerous for the soul, and scandalizes many Orthodox who may be reading them.
 
I’m not sure if I understand what you are asking here. I think that most, but not all, of these meetings (if we’re talking about meetings between Orthodox clergy and other religious leaders) that go on today are not beneficial to the Church because in most (but admitantly not all) cases they give off the impression that Orthodoxy is just another religion like any other religion. At worst, it is at these religious meetings where Orthodox leaders say and do things which are contrary to the Orthodox faith.

Sometimes it can get confusing on what one means when they say “ecumenism.” For instance, when one person discusses their religion with someone of a different religious belief, this is sometimes referred to as “ecumenism.” But when someone is discussing Ecumenism the heresy one is referring to the belief that one should water down their faith and praxis, or completely contradict and go against their faith and praxis, in order to achieve some sort of religious unity with those of another faith. …

Again, it depends on what one means by ecumenism and what one does at these ecumenical meetings.
Basically what you are against is ecumenism the heresy, a new word to me. I cannot agree with you more if ecumenism is done in that manner. I would say it is not ecumenism at all and we cannot go about in doing something at the expense of our own faith.

Ecumenism is basically a call to unity because this is what Christ wants of us. At least this is how the Catholic Church understands it. He bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: “That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me.” The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.

Seven principles of ecumenism:
    • a permanent ***renewal ***of the Church in greater fidelity to her vocation; such renewal is the driving-force of the movement toward unity;
    • conversion of heart as the faithful “try to live holier lives according to the Gospel”; for it is the unfaithfulness of the members to Christ’s gift which causes divisions;
    • prayer in common, because “change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name 'spiritual ecumenism;”
    • fraternal knowledge of each other;
    • ecumenical formation of the faithful and especially of priests;
    • dialogue among theologians and meetings among Christians of the different churches and communities;
    • collaboration among Christians in various areas of service to mankind. “Human service” is the idiomatic phrase.
Unity nevertheless needs to be worked out in one’s church first of all and among the various churches, collaboration among Christians in various areas of service to mankind. Dialogue and collaboration does not require for one to surrender one’s faith.

BTW, the level of ecumenism varies according to the belief of the church that we are dialoging with. Obviously there is no ecumenism with the Oneness Pentecostal as the chasm is too big to bridge.

But between Catholic, Orthodox and some of the Protestant high churches, there are at least some common grounds that can be broken.

The Catholic and the Orthodox are in schism, with the Protestant high churches they are separated, their leaders see this and ecumenical dialogues can be based on topics that they can come to term with, when possible.

Though the differences seem to be unattainable at this stage, it is an undeniable fact that some of the issues are semantic, the obstacles may be our ego, pride and the wounds caused by historical feud among us. So in this area we should not give up on trying to be one, to heal and to forgive because that is the desire of the Lord himself.
 
Before you post something on a site like this, you need to be sure that you are correctly representing the teaching of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Your post does not accurately express the doctrine and practice of the Eastern Orthodox Church.
The reception of a convert who was not immersed when they were Baptized outside of the Orthodox Church by Chrismation has nothing to do with ecumenism. It is the most common and historical practice of the Eastern Orthodox Church and was mandated pan Orthodox Councils long before the birth of ecumenism. Chrismation perfects whatever was lacking in the non-Orthodox Baptism. The canons give the Bishops the authority to interpret the canon law, not monastics.
Any monk or priest who re-Baptizes someone who has entered the Orthodox Church through Chrismation is committing a terrible heresy, because they are denying the grace that they have received at their Chrismation and through the Eucharist. Let me as clear as possible, the practice of so called corrective Baptism is heretical. Just because someone is a monk does not mean that they are trained in Eastern Orthodox Theology. Some well meaning but misinformed monastics are causing a great deal of trouble in the American Orthodox Church. I tell any member of my parish visiting a monastery to be very careful not to let the monks or nuns confuse them with false teaching and under no circumstance to go to Confession at certain monasteries.
The Bishops are the consecrated keepers of the Faith of the Church, not monastics, who should mind their own business and learn obedience to the proper authorities of the Church, the Bishops. They should also show proper respect for the local Pastors and not undermine them by introducing such un Orthodox ideas that a person who was received by Chrismation is not fully Orthodox.

Archpriest John W. Morris
Bless, Father.

I understand fully what you are talking about, but it pains me to hear you speak of our Monastics in this way. I was taught that we are all keepers of the Faith, not just our Bishops. That doesn’t mean that we can go off and do our own thing, but at the same time No Bishop is above the Faith, or our Traditions. The Monasteries play an important part in keeping those Traditions and Faith. I think your warning of caution is good, but also at the same time we should be wary of placing our Bishops on too high a podium.
 
In my parish you would be welcomed. If you attended the Sunday morning Divine Liturgy, you would be invited to the coffee hour. I am quite sure that the same thing would happen in most if not all Eastern Orthodox Churches.

Archpriest John W. Morris
Thank you, Fr. John. I visited your website and learned more about your parish. I’ve only been to Mississippi once in my life, but if I’m ever in Vicksburg, I’ll be sure to look you up.

🙂
 
Thank you, Fr. John. I visited your website and learned more about your parish. I’ve only been to Mississippi once in my life, but if I’m ever in Vicksburg, I’ll be sure to look you up.

🙂
You will be very welcome.

Fr. John
 
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