For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith...

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I’m ignoring that word, “foreordained”, since I think it didn’t matter right now…

But I think we need to be careful about this. We can’t just dismiss this because it comes back to those things which God prepared in advance for us to do. In other words, this is actually a very important part of this whole equation.

For example, coming back to the main focus of this thread, reconsider Ephesians 2:8-10 and take note of what I’ve bolded below…

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

See how God has prepared works in advance for us to do?

Indeed, when we do things which are holy and pleasing to God, it is because we really are God’s workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works.

Now see how the passage from Ephesians 2:8-10 ‘this’ is not from ourselves?

What is ‘this’ refering to?

Is ‘this’ refering to the grace or is ‘this’ refering to faith or is ‘this’ refering to both?

It seems to me that this faith is a grace, and that this grace comes from God, therefore our faith comes from God himself. For example, if you look toward the Catechism of the Catholic Church we see that the beginning articles on The Characteristics of Faith are explained as such…

Faith is a grace

153 When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come “from flesh and blood”, but from “my Father who is in heaven”.24 Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and ‘makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.’"25

Within our Catechism it is clear that this faith is a gift of God, that faith itself is a gift-- a gift by God’s grace. Therefore, as with all other graces, we cannot even take the credit for this gift. More to the point, if someone has true faith, this is a visible sign that God is alive and well in them…

I’ll come to Faith is a human act in section 154 next-- and proceed through to section 155 after that.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I agree with this. Of ourselves, we have and can do nothing that would through justice oblige God to give us heaven.

That’s good that we agree on this. Now let’s come to the part about faith being a human act too. I think once I explain this more in depth we may agree more on this part too.

Faith is a human act

154 Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act. Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths he has revealed is contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason. Even in human relations it is not contrary to our dignity to believe what other persons tell us about themselves and their intentions, or to trust their promises (for example, when a man and a woman marry) to share a communion of life with one another. If this is so, still less is it contrary to our dignity to “yield by faith the full submission of… intellect and will to God who reveals”,26 and to share in an interior communion with him.

First of all, I’ve said that God living within us and believing on our behalf, effectively sharing his faith with us, is where salvation comes from-- it’s God’s grace by the Holy Spirit.

I’m also saying that God created us to believe in him and give him praise-- all the by the Holy Spirit. There’s nothing wrong with stating that God created humanity to believe in him, no more so than saying God designed human lungs to breathe air. It is a truy human act to believe, just as God created us to do.

We believe in God because God designed us to believe in him by the Holy Spirit. Just like a lightbulb is designed to give light when electricity is properly applied, humanity is designed to praise God when the Holy Spirit empowers them to do so.

The design is within us according to God’s will-- a truly human act which was placed there by God himself.

But the action itself, even if the latent potential for the action sits dormant within humanity, is not performed without being empowered by God to do so.

In this sense, when someone does what God designed them to do, we still must give credit to God for empowering us to do this. We cannot take the credit for these salvific works even through God does credit them toward us as righteousness.

On this page you will note that there are four important sections:

**I. JUSTIFICATION

II. GRACE

III. MERIT

IV. CHRISTIAN HOLINESS **

I think it’s important to note that all these things are contributing factors to this who discussion.

God justifies us before him. This part has been covered.

And it is God’ grace that works in us. I’ve covered this part too.

However, we truly are rewarded for the things which have been mertited to us by God’s grace-- because we really are doing these things as the Lord moves us to do them.

And finally, we are indeed shaped by God into the various forms of Christian holiness which he intended for us to begin with-- the very same things that he designed and empowered us to do from the very beginning.

 

[Pug]

I think we need to be careful not to say that what has been meritted to us actually earns anything salvific.

I would like to give a quote from the CCC to go with this, for clarity. (unaltered, it is their italics)

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

This quote displays the distinction you wished to make between initial salvation and merit in its first line. In its second line, it contains the phrase “for the attainment of eternal life”. It seems to be saying something about merit and eternal life, but not a direct thing. It is indirect, meriting graces and those graces are for the attainment of eternal life. I’m not sure what precisely they have in mind there. I would have said myself that we cannot merit the grace of final perseverance. So, in some way, no matter what merit we accumulate after initial justification, we still rather wait upon the gift of God to have us persevere, and without that, we won’t go to heaven (because we will have fallen).

Maybe they are trying to indicate the words of the sixth session of Trent here: (altered, my red)

   Canon 32.  If anyone says that the good works of the one justified

are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits
of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he
performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living
member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and
in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also
an increase of glory, let him be anathema.

You also wrote:

It’s God who works through us. And to the extent that we do nothing of our own human merit, we are rewarded as the Lord works through us.

What would constitute doing something of our own merit for a person in a state of grace?

It’s just that if we do a salvific work, we need to acknowledge that Christ is at work in us

Amen.

Anyway, I see what you mean by the puppet on the strings. But that’s not really what I’m saying. I’m not taking about automations-- because we certainly do have free-will.

I know, but it feels that way when you say it is God acting through us, and that somehow feels like saying that we are not acting ourselves, though, I know, you do include free will, that is quite clear!

 

[Pug]

I was writing the above post of mine while you were posting yours that is right before it, so I haven’t read that one yet. I’m off to do something, so I’ll likely read it (carefully) tomorrow.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I know, but it feels that way when you say it is God acting through us, and that somehow feels like saying that we are not acting ourselves, though, I know, you do include free will, that is quite clear!

I think you’ve made really good points here, especially with reference to the sixth session of Trent.

I’ll try to explain this better so as to not be misunderstood on this.

Think for a moment about all the different personalities within the Scriptures, and even within the lives of the Saints over the last 2,000 years.

When we look to each person, we see distinct personalities in each person. For example, Peter’s impetuousness can be contrasted to Thomas’ doubting nature. Stephen seems to be of a radically different personality than that of Paul too. Even Augustine’s personality is different from Aquinas’-- even though both arrive at remarkably simlar conclusions.

So too, one could compare Mary’s personality to that of our own Lord. Jesus, who was true God and true man, had a different personality than even his own mother, the woman who gave birth to him by the Holy Spirit, was completely without sin, and was even guided by the Holy Spirit all her life just like her own divine son was.

To say that each person is moved by the Holy Spirit does not necessarilly imply a carbon copy automatica of God’s personality in each individual. And although each person in this life is indeed fore-ordained to walk the paths that God has called them to walk, he still permits quite a bit of freedom within each person’s calling.

The freedom to act as per the motion of Holy Spirit, in the negative sense, is allowed to the extent that, on the one hand, even if the person does not do exactly as the Holy Spirit has moved them to do, God can still nonetheless work within each individual to accomplish his will despite where we transgress his will.

The freedom to act as per the motion of Holy Spirit, in the positive sense, is allowed to the extent that, on the other hand, even if the person does not do something that necessarilly reflects the life of Christ, God is still nonetheless understood to be living within them and bringing these things about.

Take a look at the very character of the Holy Scriptures as spoken by the Holy Spirit but composed over approximalty 3,500 years and I think you’ll see what I mean.

The human authors of the Scriptures were from all walks of life. Their professions included fishermen, kings, peasants, poets, philosophers, physicians, scholars and statesmen. Even more so, the people lived in different cultures, had vastly different experiences, and, as noted above, were often quite different in character. Yet despite these differences, they all displayed a remarkable unity in relaying God’s vision from the Genesis account all the way through to the Apocalypse.

This comes back to the Catechism as such here…

155 In faith, the human intellect and will cooperate with divine grace: "Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace."27

In this sense, as even some protestants agree, the writers of the Scripture were not mere writing machines. God did not use them like keys on a typerwriter to mechanically reproduce his message. Nor did he dictate the words, page by page. The Scriptural evidence alone makes it abundantly clear that each writer had a style of his own:

One need only compare the powerful style of Isaiah with the mournful tone of Jeremiah in the Old testament. In the New Testament, Luke manifests a marked medical interest, James is distinctly practical, Paul is theological and polemical, and John has an obvious simplicity. God has communicated through a multiplicity of human personalities, with their respective literary characteristics.

Norman Geisler & William Nix
A General Introduction to the Bible

Going one step further, looking at Handbook for Today’s Catholic, we read the following…

The Church teaches us that God reveals through Scripture and used human authors to do it. We “…must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current” [110]. If we are to do this, then we must study.

So, to be clear, I’m not talking about automations. More precisely, I’m talking about Union with God, such as with the Exaltation of St. Francis or the Ecstasy of St. Teresa of Avila.

But I’ll discuss this more in my next post.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I agree that for us to do an action that is a “salvific action”, our acting must proceed from and within Christ, in grace. It is first from God, but he has connected it with us. Just, I wouldn’t use your wording. Truly, not to be offensive, but truly somehow it makes me think of a puppet on strings, or like being possessed and not ourselves. Like we are so much under grace that we no longer act, but are only acted upon, albeit I assume willingly.

Ok, since this seems to be the major point under discussion, I have to first of all ask what would be so wrong if indeed we were puppets on strings?

I don’t actually think we are puppets on a string. I think this is more related to the mystical experiences of St. Francis and St. Teresa of Avila for example, manifestations which more forcefully reveal the nature of the Holy Spirit at work in us which are usually too subliminal to be perceived without faith. I’ve also been clear that we do have free-will too-- and I’ll disucss this in detail when talking about the distinction between Rapture and Union.

But I am curious as to why this would be such a bad thing if indeed we were puppets on a string.

If the Lord forced us to do good would this be evil?

For example, look at this passage here…
Jeremiah 20:9:

But if I say, “I will not mention him or speak any more in his name,” his word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed, I cannot.

Clearly, even if we are not “puppets on a string”, the Spirit of the Lord is indeed moving us when we submit to his will. Indeed, when we are exausted…and tired of struggling…and can no longer resist the motion of the Spirit-- then the Spirit of the Lord often moves forcefully through us.

In other words, once we finally do nothing, then God can at last move us by his Spirit to do his will, just as he always intended.
Matthew 11:11-13:

I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.

Now speaking of prophecy, as has been noted before here, we know for example that 1 Corinthians 12:3 says that no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 10:19-21 goes even further and says, “But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.”

This is exactly the same kind of spiritual dynamic understood within the Christian Scriptures to be at work within the Hebrew Scriptures too. For example, 2 Peter 1:21 says, “For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”

In other words, when someone is truthfully speaking truth in regards to God’s revelation, they are not speaking. God is speaking through them. Therefore, the words they speak are a manifestation of God acting though them to reveal his will.

The Scriptures really are exceptionally clear about how this dynamic works.

continued…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

…continued

And as I already said here, Romans 12:3 says for by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

God has given this gift of faith to them in the exact same way that God has given all the gifts of the Spirit to them, acting through them by the Holy Spirit just as he always does in all other cases.

1. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to speak a message of knowledge, God is revealing this message of knowledge through them, essentially speaking the message of knowledge through them.
2. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to speak a message of wisdom, God is revealing this message of wisdom through them, essentially speaking the message of wisdom through them.
3. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to perform a gift of healing, God is revealing this gift of healing through them, essentially performing the gift of healing through them.
4. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to perform a miraculous power, God is revealing this miraculous power through them, essentially performing the miraculous power through them.
5. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to prophesy, God is revealing this prophesy through them, essentially prophesying through them.
6. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to distinguish between spirits, God is revealing this distinguishing between spirits through them, essentially distinguishing between spirits through them.
7. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to speak in different kinds of tongues, God is revealing this speaking in different kinds of tongues through them, essentially speaking in different kinds of tongues through them.
8. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to interpret these tongues, God is revealing this interpretation of these tongues through them, essentially interpreting these tongues through them.

In all these above cases God is manifesting something within them by the same Spirit, working through them in a way that they are quite frankly incapable of doing by their own human power or intellect.

This comes to the Prayer of St. Francis, something which I’ve been deeply contemplating for some time now…
Prayer of St. Francis of Assisi:

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is doubt, faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light
And where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled
as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive;
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

Do you see how St. Francis was willingly becoming nothing so that the Lord might work within him?

Are you familiar with the Exaltation of St. Francis of Assisi?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

When the Lord had revealed his glory before his disciples on the mount of the Transfiguration, they were left simply amazed, even dumbfounded to some extent…
Matthew 17:2:

There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.

Later, when we read the Scriptures, we also read of the Lord’s Ascension into Heaven here…
Luke 24:50-51:

When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven.

And here…
Acts 1:9:

After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

Now bearing these things in mind, consider the events that happened about St. Francis’ life.

After St. Francis had received the stigmata on Mt. Alverna in 1224, he sometimes allowed Brother Leo to visit him there. What the visiting monk saw is described in the following account from The Little Flowers of St. Francis…

And from that day forward Brother Leo set himself with a good and pure intention to scrutinise and attentively consider the life of St Francis; and in reward of his purity he was permitted many times to behold him rapt in God and suspended above the earth, sometimes at the heights of three feet above the ground, sometimes four, sometimes raised as high as the top of the beach-trees, and sometimes exalted so high in the air, and surrounded with so dazzling a glory, that he could scarce endure to look upon him.

And what did this simple friar when St Francis, in his raptures, was thus raised above his reach? He would go softly behind him, and, with tears, embrace and kiss his feet, saying: “My God, have mercy upon me, a sinner, and by the merits of this holy man let me find grace in thy sight.”

This is very similar to St. Teresa of Avila’s experience. Interestingly, her own brief statements of the subject are recorded in Chapter 20 of her autobiography entitled Life. It is in these sections that she makes the distinction between the mystical states of Union and Rapture.

Rapture, she says, *“comes in general, as a shock, quick and sharp, before you can collect your thoughts, or help yourself in any way, and you see and fell it as c loud, or a strong eagle rising upwards and carrying you away on its wings.” *

She was not merely speaking of the Spirit, because she continued as follows…

I repeat it: you feel and see yourself carried away, you know not whither. For though we feel how delicious it is, yet the weakness of our nature makes us afraid at first, and we require a much more resolute and courageous spirit than in the previous states, in order to risk everything, come what may, and to abandon ourselves into the hands of God, and go willingly whither we are carried, seeing that we must be carried away, however painful it may be; and so trying is it, that I would very often resist, and exert all my strength, particularly at those times when the rapture was coming on me in public.

I did so, too, very often when I was alone, because I was afraid of delusions. Occasionally I was able, by great efforts, to make a slight resistance; but afterwards I was worn out, like a person who had been contending with a strong giant; at other times it was impossible to resist at all: my soul was carried away, and almost always my head with it,–I had no power over it,–and now and then the whole body as well, so that it was lifted up from the ground.

This was not a personal experience that no one else observed except her.

Others, such as Bishop Diego Don Alvaro de Mendoza, certainly indicate these were real events. In fact, while serving Communion to Teresa, he observed how Teresa was gripped by rapture before Communion could be given her. She actually rose into the air some distance above the openining of the apertrure made in the wall for serving Communion.

Sister Anne of the Incarnation also bore witness to these raptures too.

Despite St. Teresa’s unwillingness to be distinguished from her fellow sisters in this way, these raptures continued. Once, during a sermon on a feast day, when some noble ladies were present at the convent, she felt the rapture coming on and flung herself to the ground to resist it. The nuns actually gathered around to help hold her down, but still this rapture was observed.

On another occasion, bishop Deigo de Yepes had witnessed her being caught in rapture as well. St. teresa had just received Communion, and, struggling against the onset of another rapture, she grasped the bars of the grille (through which Communion had been served). As she once again began to rise into the air, she called out to God:

Lord, for a thing of so little consequence as is my being bereft of this favour of Thine, do not permit a creature so vile as I am to be taken as a holy woman.

 

[Pug]

Ok, since this seems to be the major point under discussion, I have to first of all ask what would be so wrong if indeed we were puppets on strings?

Something and nothing. It is a personal thing with me, so probably that is why I am causing you so much trouble. Sometimes I wish I could say to God, “I choose you!” and then be done with decision making and let him do the rest. But I can unchoose that until I die, so it isn’t going to happen. So it is personal because I’d like to willingly climb on the strings and stay there willingly, but I don’t trust myself not to jump off, and I wish I could fix it so that I couldn’t jump off. But then again…I want to be able to always be able to freely say, “I love you”, so I want to have choice.

Maybe with each passing year the decision will creep into even deeper recesses of me, and I will be more comfortable that I won’t “unchoose” for God. Although I make it sound like this conflict is currrent within me, it is an older confllict, one that I resolved by trusting him over myself. But I still can hear the echoes.

Clearly, even if we are not “puppets on a string”, the Spirit of the Lord is indeed moving us when we submit to his will. Indeed, when we are exausted…and tired of struggling…and can no longer resist the motion of the Spirit-- then the Spirit of the Lord often moves forcefully through us.

In other words, once we finally do nothing, then God can at last move us by his Spirit to do his will, just as he always intended.

Yes, I understand this! It is like a bird, struggling. Have you ever seen one? They are so silly, so desperate, yet the way for them was clear the whole time, but they were too upset to see it.

Your point about how the scripture was written is a good one. That helps. It is miraculous to me that God can move our wills in such a delicate way that they remain free. It is because he made them to begin with (well, and that he is God, of course).

I was not familiar with the exultation of St. Francis, but I have heard of the ecstacy of St. Teresa.

I understand very much how faith is a gift. Now that I do have it (received in baptism as a child), it is something that I can feel within me as an excercise of my capacities, but it clearly did not come from me. The point from the ccc155 is a good one.

Do you see how St. Francis was willingly becoming nothing so that the Lord might work within him?

Yes, this nothingness I understand. Not that I am good at it.

 

[Bishopite]

…continued.

Well, I happen to think that the Catechism is perfect in it’s descriptions of faith. I also highly doubt that anything I suggest is going to change the Catechism-- because the Catechsim does essentially state what I’m claiming already.

As with most matters of faith, the faith in question is expressed phenomenologically from the perspective of man’s response to God– because that’s generally the only way we perceive the world. The mystical idea of the body of Christ is not easilly captured in this phenomenolical perspective.

In other words, the dynamics behind the response requires a deeper insight into the mystery of the Church’s relationship to God as the ‘bride of Christ’. It is not easilly understood by most people – the divinitation of the flesh tends to be confused with the proclomation that men are ‘minor gods’ as some non-Trinitarian para-Christian groups advocate – so it is simply stated that man responds to God in order to avoid the opposite apostate extremes claimed by other essentially non-Christian groups which claim to be Christian.

It can be extremely hard, using language alone, to avoid the extremes between ‘works righteousness’ and the claim that ‘men are gods’ – and yet this is exactly what the Catechism is doing when it makes the claims it makes under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

So, again, in order to avoid the extreme of saying that we are ‘gods’, it is proper to say that man responds to God-- and it is not wrong so long as one also realizes that this response is a motion of the Holy Spirit too (which is stated many times in the Catechism to be fair).

Yes it does. But, as you read through it further, you also read latter that this response is coming from the Holy Spirit too. So, if there’s any kind of change necessary, I suppose one could say that God manifests himself through man by faith-- maybe saying…

Or…

Myself, I have really no problem with how the very first Profession of Faith is stated. Saying that man responds to God is not wrong insofar that man really is responding to God. It’s only that one has to realize that man’s response to God comes by the Holy Sprit-- and that man is not responding to God by his own power. God is calling them by the Holy Spirit and empowering them to believe.

As the beginning paragraph already stated, believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, to share an interior communion with God is God sharing his faith with us by the Holy Spirit so that we may believe in him.

This is how we become temples of the Holy Spirit, God indwelling us and empowering us to act according to God’s will.

The Apostle Paul quoted pagans in Scripture at least fours times.

For example, as noted above, Acts 17:28, where Aratus, Phaenomena 5, is paraphrased. Acts 26:14. The phrase “it hurts you to kick against the goad” is a Greek proverb (see Euripides, Bacchae, 794-795). 1 Corinthians 15:33, where Paul quotes Menander, Thais, Frg.218. Titus 1:12, where Epimenides, De oraculis/peri Chresmon is quoted.

Even the pagan nations understood some of these aspects-- quite well at that, which must indicate that at least some truths revealed by the Holy Spirit could be understood by the pagan nations enough for their poets to express this.

ExNihilo,

Very good explaination if how we share in His divine nature! (2 Peter 1:4). The late Protestant (who was becoming Catholic) Rich Mullins used to sign autographs “Be God” and he didn’t at all mean literally be God Himself but figuratively, he meant be like God as many Christians often say…be “Christ like.”

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

ExNihilo,

Very good explaination of how we share in His divine nature! (2 Peter 1:4). The late Protestant (who was becoming Catholic) Rich Mullins used to sign autographs “Be God” and he didn’t at all mean literally be God Himself but figuratively, he meant be like God as many Christians often say…be “Christ like.”

Amen brother. And thank you.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

I think this passage is warning against those who think ‘their own’ faith will save them. But it is not our own faith which saves us. It is Christ’s faith which saves us.

As the passage clearly states, this faith is not from ourselves. This faith is from God– through God’s grace. In other words, when Christ is living in us and believing for us, then we are saved through his faith which he shares with us through the Holy Spirit.

Grace is God’s blessings upon us. Jesus was God’s grace given to us to forgive our sins (the angel even says to Mary “Hail Mary full of Grace”). All who believe in Him will have eternal life! A true faith is accompanied by works to show our love for God, who created us. All works must be done for the honor and glory of God.

 

[Nick_Jones]

I think this passage is warning against those who think ‘their own’ faith will save them. But it is not our own faith which saves us. It is Christ’s faith which saves us.

As the passage clearly states, this faith is not from ourselves. This faith is from God– through God’s grace. In other words, when Christ is living in us and believing for us, then we are saved through his faith which he shares with us through the Holy Spirit.

Then in your view, everyone goes to heaven? If not, then you must be saying that Christ’s faith isn’t living in everyone. If is is the case, why is that?

 

[Nita]

My gosh this thread has been busy!!!

I haven’t read all the days posts, but what has stood out to me is that there has not been a clear distinction made between
*actual, temporary graces - eg grace that leads us to faith
*habitual, sanctifying grace (the grace that saves)

*actual grace:
The grace God sends to help lead us to believe and accept Jesus as God and saviour is an “actual” grace. It is not the grace that saves us. It is a temporary help from God to help us arrive at faith. It has seemed as tho some are erroneously referring to this grace as the grace that saves.

*sanctifying grace:
Having come to faith through the help of God’s grace, then upon Baptism, sanctifying grace is infused into our soul. This is the grace that saves us. It is the supernatural life of God.

Actual graces are temporary helps to perform particular good acts God desires of us. The graces are provided only when, where, and as long as needed.
Sanctifying grace on the other hand, changes the state of our soul and is meant to remain in us permanently. We can increase this life of grace (that is, our capacity or degree of participation in this Divine nature) according to how we life our life.

Nita

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Then in your view, everyone goes to heaven? If not, then you must be saying that Christ’s faith isn’t living in everyone. If is is the case, why is that?

No. I’ve explained this already too.

Go back and read through the entire thread.