For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith...

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I am trying to understand your reasoning here, but I need the understanding of what state man is in by default today. A man is either in a Justified or unjustified state to begin. In your thinking does man start off as Justified or Unjustified? I am not looking for a big explanation of your answer yet, just a simple Justified or Unjustified.

Simple answer:

**Neither. It’s a process until the particular judgement.

Man’s interior is living in a constant state of being prepared by God for sanctifying grace.

In this sense, God wills the salvation of all and, in ways unknown to us, remains present to people everywhere, offering them a share in the divine life. In other words, every human life is lived out in relationship to the God of grace.**

---

Complicated answer:

The word justification (justificatio, from justum facere) derives its name from justice (justitia).

Justification connotes the whole inner relation of man to God as to his supernatural end.

Every adult soul stained either with original sin or with actual mortal sin (children are of course excepted) must, in order to arrive at the state of justification, pass through a short or long process of justification, which may be likened to the gradual development of the child in its mother’s womb.

This development attains its fullness in the birth of the child, accompanied by the anguish and suffering with which this birth is invariably attended; our rebirth in God is likewise preceded by great spiritual sufferings of fear and contrition.

During this process, the inner, immanent sanctification of the sinner is ultimately completed on…

1. …the passing to a new life (Ephesians 2:5; Colossians 2:13; 1 John 3:14),
2. …renovation in spirit (Ephesians 4:23 sq.),
3. …supernatural likeness to God (Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18; 2 Peter 1:4),
4. …a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15);
5. …rebirth in God (John 3:5; Titus 3:5; James 1:18), etc…

…all of which indicates not only a setting aside of sin, but expresses as well a permanent state of holiness. All of these terms express not an aid to action, but rather a form of being.

And this appears also from the fact that the grace of justification is described as being “poured forth in our hearts” (Romans 5:5); as “the spirit of adoption of sons” of God (Romans 8:15); as the “spirit, born of the spirit” (John 3:6); making us “conformable to the image of the Son” (Romans 8:28); as a participation in the Divine nature (2 Peter 1:4); the abiding seed in us (1 John 3:9), and so on.

In all these things, it is Christ who is transforming our interior through the living process of justification via God’s sanctifying grace.

Is that clear enough?

 

[simbagizmo]

Simple answer:

**Neither. It’s a process until the particular judgement.

Man’s interior is living in a constant state of being prepared by God for sanctifying grace.

In this sense, God wills the salvation of all and, in ways unknown to us, remains present to people everywhere, offering them a share in the divine life. In other words, every human life is lived out in relationship to the God of grace.**

---

Complicated answer:

The word justification (justificatio, from justum facere) derives its name from justice (justitia).

Justification connotes the whole inner relation of man to God as to his supernatural end.

Every adult soul stained either with original sin or with actual mortal sin (children are of course excepted) must, in order to arrive at the state of justification, pass through a short or long process of justification, which may be likened to the gradual development of the child in its mother’s womb.

This development attains its fullness in the birth of the child, accompanied by the anguish and suffering with which this birth is invariably attended; our rebirth in God is likewise preceded by great spiritual sufferings of fear and contrition.

During this process, the inner, immanent sanctification of the sinner is ultimately completed on…

1. …the passing to a new life (Ephesians 2:5; Colossians 2:13; 1 John 3:14),
2. …renovation in spirit (Ephesians 4:23 sq.),
3. …supernatural likeness to God (Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18; 2 Peter 1:4),
4. …a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15);
5. …rebirth in God (John 3:5; Titus 3:5; James 1:18), etc…

…all of which indicates not only a setting aside of sin, but expresses as well a permanent state of holiness. All of these terms express not an aid to action, but rather a form of being.

And this appears also from the fact that the grace of justification is described as being “poured forth in our hearts” (Romans 5:5); as “the spirit of adoption of sons” of God (Romans 8:15); as the “spirit, born of the spirit” (John 3:6); making us “conformable to the image of the Son” (Romans 8:28); as a participation in the Divine nature (2 Peter 1:4); the abiding seed in us (1 John 3:9), and so on.

In all these things, it is Christ who is transforming our interior through the living process of justification via God’s sanctifying grace.

Is that clear enough?

And this is where we disagree. I believe Justification, is the declaration of God that one is righteous in his eyes. And Justification is declared on those that believe on Jesus Christ. When one believes on Jesus Christ, he is reborn in spirit, the Holy Spirit moves in and begins the process of sanctification. Turning on the lightbulb as you put it.

 

[Vincent]

I believe Justification, is the declaration of God that one is righteous in his eyes.

In and of itself, this is compatible with the Catholic position: God declares, and his declaration is simultaneously effective.

Thus, God declares an **unjustified **son of Adam to be a **justified **son of God by adoption, and by this very declaration he is simultaneously re-created as an adopted son of God.

What may be confusing is the usage of terminology.

The term “justification” in Catholic theology includes the subsequent increase of the justice one has received and not just the initial declarative/transformational event.

In Evangelical theology, any increase or growth is usually confined to the term “sanctification”, while the term “justification” only denotes the initial declarative event.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

And this is where we disagree. I believe Justification, is the declaration of God that one is righteous in his eyes. And Justification is declared on those that believe on Jesus Christ. When one believes on Jesus Christ, he is reborn in spirit, the Holy Spirit moves in and begins the process of sanctification. Turning on the lightbulb as you put it.

But, to be fair, I don;t you actually do believe what you’re claiming to believe.

Do you believe, for example, that those who have never heard the word of Christ preached to them, never even had a chance to be saved so to speak, are delivered unto hell?

If so, how can this be reconciled with the idea of a loving God who is concerned for the well-being of all people?

Going one step further, how about babies who are incapable of believing?

Or, on similar level of accountability, what of those people who in this life have to deal with the challenges of mental retardation for example-- and cannot fully grasp or articulate the aspects of belief?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

In and of itself, this is compatible with the Catholic position: God declares, and his declaration is simultaneously effective.

Thus, God declares an **unjustified **son of Adam to be a **justified **son of God by adoption, and by this very declaration he is simultaneously re-created as an adopted son of God.

What may be confusing is the usage of terminology.

The term “justification” in Catholic theology includes the subsequent increase of the justice one has received and not just the initial declarative/transformational event.

In Evangelical theology, any increase or growth is usually confined to the term “sanctification”, while the term “justification” only denotes the initial declarative event.

Excellent points Vincent.

I agree.

 

[simbagizmo]

Thus, God declares an unjustified son of Adam to be a justified son of God by adoption, and by this very declaration he is simultaneously re-created as an adopted son of God.

At this moment of God’s declaration, which is a single act in an instant, the person is now an adopted son of God. He is now a member of the flock God’s sheep as Jesus put it. Correct?

 

[simbagizmo]

But, to be fair, I don;t you actually do believe what you’re claiming to believe.

I actually do believe what I have said. It is in Scripture, it is the Gospel message. Jesus in the way, the only way. No one comes to the father except through Jesus. Jesus does not teach of getting to heaven any other way. I would be happy to read it if you find it.

Do you believe, for example, that those who have never heard the word of Christ preached to them, never even had a chance to be saved so to speak, are delivered unto hell?

First, I believe in God’s Word. It states no one has the excuse they did not know about God. This is written in Romans. So all will be judged, those without the law will perish without the law (Romans 2). This is why we are to go out and make disciples, the Great Commission. Peter was given the key to salvation, the Gospel message of Jesus Christ. To believe in Him, put your Faith on Him for salvation. This is the Good News. Believers then possess the key to free others by doing the same, preaching the Gospel message. This is Jesus’s command to all believers. God has given you and me a sphere of people to preach to, family, friends, co-workers, and fulfill His command. Since Jesus says He is the way, the only way, everyone outside of Jesus Christ is condemned. If there is another message in Scripture, please correct me.

If so, how can this be reconciled with the idea of a loving God who is concerned for the well-being of all people?

God is loving, he has not rejected us. We have rejected Him. He continues to show his love and mercy by always taking us in and forgiving our sins. But we rebel against God, he accepts us when we come to Him. This is the loving God. But remember God is also Just, not just loving. We stand condemned and he does Judge. God’s wrath is to be feared.

Going one step further, how about babies who are incapable of believing?

Or, on similar level of accountability, what of those people who in this life have to deal with the challenges of mental retardation for example-- and cannot fully grasp or articulate the aspects of belief?

I do not know all these answers. Someday I will. But I am not going to question God. But I do know what God has revealed to us in Scripture and I have Faith, assurance, in his promise.

 

[Vincent]

At this moment of God’s declaration, which is a single act in an instant, the person is now an adopted son of God. He is now a member of the flock God’s sheep as Jesus put it. Correct?

Correct.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I actually do believe what I have said.

Perhaps in theory. But not in practice. I don’t think you do anyway.

Let me explain further why I think this is so.

simbagizmo:

It is in Scripture, it is the Gospel message. Jesus in the way, the only way. No one comes to the father except through Jesus. Jesus does not teach of getting to heaven any other way. I would be happy to read it if you find it.

First of all, when have I said there was any other way into heaven except through Christ?

Furthermore, I need to ask you what you believe to be an authentic manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the life of each individual person?

simbagizmo:

First, I believe in God’s Word. It states no one has the excuse they did not know about God.

I believe in God’s Word too.

But the question, which you have not answered yet, still needs to be asked:

How do these people know about God if no one has preached God’s Word to them?

simbagizmo:

This is written in Romans. So all will be judged, those without the law will perish without the law (Romans 2).

The passage from Romans actually says…

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

This isn’t saying that those who perish without the law will be condemned because they lack the law. This means that those who do not have the fullness of the law revealed to them will not be judged as strictly as those who do have the fullness of law.

You can find this stated more clearly in Romans 4:15 where Paul explains that where there is no law there is no transgression.

In other words, people are not judged by the things that have not been fully revealed to them.

This can be seen stated more boldly in Romans 5:13 where Paul says that before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

Consequently, even those who do not have the fullness of the law revealed to them still have a basic understanding of the law anyway.

In fact, the very next few passages found in Romans 2 indicates this…

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Paul goes on to explain how even the Gentiles have some basic understanding of God’s law, manifesting in their consciences as a battle between good and evil as follows…

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts…

In other words, as the Scriptures state, they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts because their consciences bear witness to some basic form of right and wrong. Sometimes their thoughts accuse them when they’ve done something wrong-- and sometimes their thoughts defend them when they’ve done something right.

Even more, the law is written onto the hearts of all men, regardless of whether they are Jews or Gentiles, beleivers or non-believers-- so there is no excuse for someone to not know the basic natural law, those commandents which pertain to man’s duty towards their own fellowman.

Paul even concludes that these people will be judged according to the extent that the law was revealed to them. And he quite clearly states that this will take place on the day when God judges men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, just as the gospel declares.

Pauls says in Romans 13:8 that he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. Pauls says again Galatians 5:14 that the entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

James 2:8 likewise states that if you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. And our Lord even says in Luke 7:47 that her many sins were been forgiven—for she loved much.

In fact, again coming from the Lord God himself, Jesus sums up the law as follows when questioned by the Pharisees…

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

These words Jesus spoke hark back to Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18-- which was, after all, Jesus revealing the Father’s will in a theophany prior to his own incarnation in the Virgin.

Now lets come to your points you raised, the points which I believe indicates that you believe this in theory but not in practice.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Let’s review one point you brought up before…

First, I believe in God’s Word. It states no one has the excuse they did not know about God.

I actually agree with this. Another passage of Romans states it this way…
Romans 1:20:

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Now let’s come back to your points…

simbagizmo:

This is why we are to go out and make disciples, the Great Commission.

But hasn’t God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse since the creation of the world?

If so, then why is there such a Great Commision?

simbagizmo:

Peter was given the key to salvation, the Gospel message of Jesus Christ.

I agree with this too.

I can also see your Catholic influence when you state it was Peter who was given the key of salvation. It’s subliminal, but a Catholic picks up on these things.

simbagizmo:

To believe in Him, put your Faith on Him for salvation. This is the Good News. Believers then possess the key to free others by doing the same, preaching the Gospel message. This is Jesus’s command to all believers. God has given you and me a sphere of people to preach to, family, friends, co-workers, and fulfill His command. Since Jesus says He is the way, the only way, everyone outside of Jesus Christ is condemned. If there is another message in Scripture, please correct me.

Like I said before, I’ve never denied that Jesus was, is, and always will be our Lord and Saviour.

If you can show me where I claimed he wasn’t so, I would like you to point this out to me.

My question that I’m posing to you is exactly who is outside of Jesus Christ?

And why does Jesus command the apostles and disciples to go out and preach his Word if the world already knows about God as Romans 1:20 states?

simbagizmo:

God is loving, he has not rejected us. We have rejected Him. He continues to show his love and mercy by always taking us in and forgiving our sins. But we rebel against God, he accepts us when we come to Him. This is the loving God. But remember God is also Just, not just loving. We stand condemned and he does Judge. God’s wrath is to be feared.

According to Romans 1:18, the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.

And I’m sure this wrath from heaven is just as self-evident as Romans 1:20 claims God’s invisible qualities are understood from what has been made.

In other words, in regards to God’s wrath, men are also without excuse for not understanding this is coming to them for rebelling against his Spirit.

Of course, as 1 John 4:18 states, there is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

simbagizmo:

I do not know all these answers. Someday I will. But I am not going to question God. But I do know what God has revealed to us in Scripture and I have Faith, assurance, in his promise.

I was kind of hoping for a better answer than this-- but it was kind of what I was expecting too.

For the record, you cannot actually answer why God has sent his apostles out into the world if you cannot answers these questions.

More specifically you can’t answer why you believe no one has the excuse they did not know about God if you are likewise claiming that the apostles had to go out to preach the gospel in order to know about Jesus.

Jesus is God. And he’s been very evident in his creation, as Romans 1:20 states, right from the very beginning.

See what I mean?

Now how about an attempt to explain what happens to these people who have never heard the Word preached to them, unbaptized children, and the mentally disabled?

If you feel that any of these people do not know God, then you are contradicting your own theory that all people are without excuse. People who do not know about God cannot be held accountable for not believing in him.

And if you claim that they do know God, then you have to also explain how they know God without hearing God’s Word. People who have not had the Word preached to them should not know about God according to your theory.

Seems that way to me.

 

[simbagizmo]

But hasn’t God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse since the creation of the world?

If so, then why is there such a Great Commision?

First, the Great Commission is a command from Jesus. Jesus works in cooperation with his believer, because this increases the believers faith and draws them closer to God. When Jesus fed the 5000, he could have just created the bread and fish for everyone, but he took what the people brought him and multiplied it. I believe this is what he does with us. When you spread the Gospel message, don’t you feel even closer and grow more in faith? I do, because I know I am doing his will. And to watch Him work through me is a wonderful thing to witness.

My question that I’m posing to you is exactly who is outside of Jesus Christ?

Those who do not believe on Jesus Christ, who has not put their faith in Him for salvation.

And why does Jesus command the apostles and disciples to go out and preach his Word if the world already knows about God as Romans 1:20 states?

The world does know about God, but the entire world has not yet heard of the Gospel, the key to salvation.

For the record, you cannot actually answer why God has sent his apostles out into the world if you cannot answers these questions.

I can answer why as God states in Scripture. Beyond that, you are correct.

More specifically you can’t answer why you believe no one has the excuse they did not know about God if you are likewise claiming that the apostles had to go out to preach the gospel in order to know about Jesus.

I believe because God says so. And though God says no one has excuse about knowing of God, the apostles went out to tell everyone the Gospel. I do not understand why you say I cannot answer why I believe.

Jesus is God. And he’s been very evident in his creation, as Romans 1:20 states, right from the very beginning.

But the people do not know the Gospel. They have no excuse to know of God, via his creation. There is a difference about evidence of God and the message of salvation he gave us.

See what I mean?

Not really. It seems that you are trying to equate the people having known of God, and the people should then also know of the Gospel message, using Romans 1:20. This does not say people have no excuse to not know of the Gospel message. Just that they have no excuse to know of God by his creation.

Now how about an attempt to explain what happens to these people who have never heard the Word preached to them, unbaptized children, and the mentally disabled?

Once again, I do not see where God has revealed this. I do not know the mind of God, nor do I expect to know it all. I have faith in God and in His promises. If you have revelation about this from Scripture, I would be happy to listen.

If you feel that any of these people do not know God, then you are contradicting your own theory that all people are without excuse. People who do not know about God cannot be held accountable for not believing in him.

This was already covered above in the Romans verse.

And if you claim that they do know God, then you have to also explain how they know God without hearing God’s Word. People who have not had the Word preached to them should not know about God according to your theory.

This is also explained above in the Romans verse. They know of God, they know of his existance.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

First, the Great Commission is a command from Jesus. Jesus works in cooperation with his believer, because this increases the believers faith and draws them closer to God. When Jesus fed the 5000, he could have just created the bread and fish for everyone, but he took what the people brought him and multiplied it. I believe this is what he does with us. When you spread the Gospel message, don’t you feel even closer and grow more in faith? I do, because I know I am doing his will. And to watch Him work through me is a wonderful thing to witness.

When did I say I didn’t feel closer to God when I’m doing his will?

The only thing I’ve claimed is that God is doing his will through me when I act according to his will-- and I am acting according to my own will when I do not do the things God wills.

Either way I act, God’s will is going to be accomplished-- because God’s will is all-powerful.

simbagizmo:

Those who do not believe on Jesus Christ, who has not put their faith in Him for salvation.

So far we’ve only mentioned people who never heard the Word, unbaptized babies and the mentally handicapped.

But going one step further, how were the Israelites saved in the past then, especially if Christ wasn’t revealed yet?

simbagizmo:

The world does know about God, but the entire world has not yet heard of the Gospel, the key to salvation.

But isn’t Jesus God?

simbagizmo:

I can answer why as God states in Scripture. Beyond that, you are correct.

Well then how about the Israelites?

The Scriptures make it abundantly clear that they have salvation, and yet many of them did not know Christ yet.

simbagizmo:

I believe because God says so.

Well…I’ve pointed toward Scriptures which indicate that your interpretation of Romans may not be accurate.

As I said before, this isn’t saying that those who perish without the law will be condemned because they lack the law. This means that those who do not have the fullness of the law revealed to them will not be judged as strictly as those who do have the fullness of law.

You can find this stated more clearly in Romans 4:15 where Paul explains that where there is no law there is no transgression.

In other words, people are not judged by the things that have not been fully revealed to them.

This can be seen stated more boldly in Romans 5:13 where Paul says that before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

You haven’t really responded to this yet either.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

simbagizmo:

And though God says no one has excuse about knowing of God, the apostles went out to tell everyone the Gospel. I do not understand why you say I cannot answer why I believe.

How can someone know about God and not know about God’s forgiveness?

simbagizmo:

But the people do not know the Gospel. They have no excuse to know of God, via his creation. There is a difference about evidence of God and the message of salvation he gave us.

I disagree with that.

But I’ll allow for a moment this point and move further to ask does one’s belief in God save them even if they do not know about the Gospel of Christ?

Again, I’ll come back to a common topic within the Scriptures, the salvation of the Israelites. The Scriptures make it abundantly clear that they have salvation, and yet many of them did not know Christ yet.

simbagizmo:

Not really. It seems that you are trying to equate the people having known of God, and the people should then also know of the Gospel message, using Romans 1:20.

But, first of all, the Romans passage does not apply to the past. In fact, it doesn’t imply past at all. It says “since the creation of the world” implying a continual revelation.
Romans 1:20:

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Is God’s forgiveness not considered an invisible quality, part of his eternal power and divine nature?

Have these things not been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood from what has been made?

See Acts too…

From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

simbagizmo:

This does not say people have no excuse to not know of the Gospel message. Just that they have no excuse to know of God by his creation.

I disagree.

It says God’s invisible qualities have been clearly seen (since the creation of the world) and is understood from what has been made.

simbagizmo:

Once again, I do not see where God has revealed this.

No. Your theology doesn’t allow for it.

But this message is clearly seen all throughout the Scriptures.

simbagizmo:

I do not know the mind of God, nor do I expect to know it all.

We have the mind of Christ, don’t we?

“For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

simbagizmo:

I have faith in God and in His promises.

Yes. And even this faith you have is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

simbagizmo:

If you have revelation about this from Scripture, I would be happy to listen.

Not sure what else I can really say. I’ve been pointing this out to you since the beginning of this thread. The way you interpret the Scriptures doesn’t allow anything I’ve explained to you to take hold in you.

simbagizmo:

This was already covered above in the Romans verse.

Actually, it wasn’t. And I’ve explained clearly why it hasn’t been covered yet too.

simbagizmo:

This is also explained above in the Romans verse. They know of God, they know of his existance.

Is God’s forgiveness not considered an invisible quality, part of his eternal power and divine nature?

Have these things not been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood from what has been made?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

simbagizmo,

I guess If I could sum this up quickly, it seems to me that anyone who’s theology cannot address at least in theory what may happen to 1) those who have never heard the Gospel, 2) unbaptized babies, 3) the mentally infirm, and perhaps 4) the Israelites prior to Christ’s incarnation-- this it stands to reason that they may not have a clear definition of who is ‘outside of Jesus Christ’

What I find more difficult to understand is why someone would claim that no one has the excuse they did not know about God-- and that this knowledge is sufficient to condemn them. And yet I never see any hint by them that this knowledge of God may be likewise sufficient to save them-- because even if they know about God, they are still considered outside of Jesus Christ.

If this is true, then the entirety of God’s creation within their theology appears to be warped into a rather accursed place where people are damned for things they have absolutely no control over.

That simply makes no sense at all simbagizmo. There is simply nothing logical about this either-- except to those who already subscribe to this theology. In their minds it makes perfect sense, but not because it’s considered fair and just in any truly logical sense. It make sense because it matches their theology’s perception of what they think is fair and just.

I could be wrong. But I don’t think God works that way.

In fact, if God is faithful and he will not let us be tempted beyond what we can bear, then how can anyone think that God will abandon anyone who has not been given a fair chance to have faith in him?

 

[simbagizmo]

simbagizmo,

I guess If I could sum this up quickly, it seems to me that anyone who’s theology cannot address at least in theory what may happen to 1) those who have never heard the Gospel, 2) unbaptized babies, 3) the mentally infirm, and perhaps 4) the Israelites prior to Christ’s incarnation-- this it stands to reason that they may not have a clear definition of who is ‘outside of Jesus Christ’

What I find more difficult to understand is why someone would claim that no one has the excuse they did not know about God-- and that this knowledge is sufficient to condemn them. And yet I never see any hint by them that this knowledge of God may be likewise sufficient to save them-- because even if they know about God, they are still considered outside of Jesus Christ.

If this is true, then the entirety of God’s creation within their theology appears to be warped into a rather accursed place where people are damned for things they have absolutely no control over.

That simply makes no sense at all simbagizmo. There is simply nothing logical about this either-- except to those who already subscribe to this theology. In their minds it makes perfect sense, but not because it’s considered fair and just in any truly logical sense. It make sense because it matches their theology’s perception of what they think is fair and just.

I could be wrong. But I don’t think God works that way.

In fact, if God is faithful and he will not let us be tempted beyond what we can bear, then how can anyone think that God will abandon anyone who has not been given a fair chance to have faith in him?

The message I get from your statement above, is to through away what I do know, because there are things I do not know. If this is what you are implying, that would be foolish, for who knows the ways of God. You asked in a previous post, using Romans 1:20, why is there the Great Commission? The real answer to this, even if you cannot answer why with human reasoning, is because God commanded it. That is Faith, to act on God’s Word, without the need for explanation or understanding.

According to Scripture, we have to put our Faith in Jesus for salvation. This is the Gospel message. I do not read in God’s Word where any exception is made for those who do not come to Faith.

God has not revealed what happens to those that do not have the capacity to come to faith, whether death of babies or those with no mental capacity. Maybe God does come to them before their death and reveals Himself to them and they do have the capacity to choose God. We may consider those mentally ill or children to not have the capacity to reason as we do, and maybe that is an advantage. They must be fully dependant, where we have the temptation to rely on our intellect.

Even the Catholic Church does not know. Some churches, like the Catholic Church, try to solve this question with water baptism, saying that baptism with water removes all sins from babies and they go to purgatory or heaven. But this is not Scriptural. The water baptism taught in Scripture is a believers baptism. It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves which comes to those who put their Faith in Jesus Christ. And to try to use man’s logic and reasoning and teach this as God’s ways, is dangerous and corruptable of the Gospel message. This is the danger when one teaches outside of Scripture.

I understand your need to have answers to all questions and have theory and logic for everything. I used to be the same way. But through the Spirit, I have come to peace that I do not have to know all the answers. I have put my Faith in Jesus Christ for my salvation, study his Word, and work within the revelation he gives me. For me to go beyond that and begin preaching “theory”, which is correctly put for this topic, would be teaching my thoughts and not God’s Word. I do not need to know all the answers. You may consider this “bad theology”, I consider it Faith.

Rom 11:30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Rom 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
Rom 11:34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?

So, now that we established I cannot answer this question without pure conjecture, can you please answer your very question about salvation of babies and those of no mental capacity?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

The message I get from your statement above, is to through away what I do know, because there are things I do not know.

Not necessarilly. I’m just asking you to consider that Christ may be more active within his creation that you have previsously considered.

You seem to be restricting God’s activity strictly within the confines of his visible Church-- and yet the Scriptures are clear that the Holy Spirit works outside the visible structure of the Church to draw people into God’s Church. Even Catholicism teaches this to be true. And she is not the only church that teaches some verison of this truth either.

simbagizmo:

If this is what you are implying, that would be foolish, for who knows the ways of God.

We know that God is just in all that he does. We also have good reason to believe that God will be just when he judges those who have never had a fair chance to believe in him too.

For example…

Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.

"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.

And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, **it would have remained to this day. **

But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

This isn’t just a wild speculation on my part that God will not judge those who do not know him fully as strictly as those who do know him. This is faith based on the solid teachings of Christ himself which indicates that some would have repented long ago if they had the chance to do so.

And if this remains true, then it also stands to reason that if some had heard the Gospel message clearly, they too would have come to believe in him.

Therefore, these statements of God’s justice doesn’t necessarilly imply automatic damnation for these other people who are outside the fullness of God’s revelation-- because even Christ admits that if they had heard the meassage, they would not have been destroyed. In other words, they would have repented, just as the kingdom of Nivinna did at Jonah’s preaching.

Where repenetance has not happened, we must not dare to assume that they have not repented because they would have never repented even if they did hear the Word. Many of them, according to Jesus’ own words, would have repented if the Word had been preached to them gladly out of love.

More to the point, where repentance has not happened, it remains a persistant reality that the reason they may not have repented was because we failed in our ability to preach it to them.

The Lord’s name is not blasphemed because the gentiles do not know God. As the author of Romans says in Romans 2:24, “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.” In other words, God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of our failures. Not theirs.

Therefore, it stands to reason that God, in his infinite capacity for justice, could very easilly judge people according to how they would have reacted if the gospel message had been fairly presented to them-- and he does exactly that above when he speaks of Tyre, Sidon and Sodom by the way.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

You asked in a previous post, using Romans 1:20, why is there the Great Commission? The real answer to this, even if you cannot answer why with human reasoning, is because God commanded it. That is Faith, to act on God’s Word, without the need for explanation or understanding.

I disagree.

As far as I can tell, the early church was mainly concerend with spotting references to Christ in the Hebrew Scriptures in order to demonstrate that Christ was active amongst the Israelites well before his incarnation in the virgin. Many of the early church fathers saw Christ walking in the garden with Adam and Eve, walking with Enoch and Noah, conversing with Abraham, standing in the flames with Daniel’s friends, etc.

In other words, they were exited about the knowledge of their redeemer finally manifesting among them and revealing himself so clearly to them. It is said that the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. And i agree with this solid Christian truth. In other words, the invisible became visible.
Romans 16: 25-27:

Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him – to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Or, stated more plainly:

The mystery of all the ages was finally revealed.

In this regard, this doesn’t necessarilly imply that no one was “saved” prior to Christ’s death and resurrection. Christ’s sacrifice on the cross stretches throughout the entire scope of human history.

More to the point, it seems more reasonable for some to equate the coming of Christ with the epiphany (or the revelation) of their salvation. In other words, Christ’s coming was the manifestation of the revelation of the Savior who had been saving whichever people were saved everywhere all along since the beginning.

Now with this revelation we as Christians hear the call of the Holy Spirit to share this revelation with all who are willing to listen.

Others do not know who their redeemer is. We do – and that’s why we must take very careful Spirit-lead precautions before speaking to one who soundly doubts. If we push them away from Christ, that’s our fault – not theirs.

Stating this more clearly, I think that one can easilly proclaim Christ as savior without simultaniously condemning those who do not know him to hell. In some regards I weep for the church in our modern day. In many ways we’ve become far more guilty of the “self-righteousnes” that our Christian Scriptures rail against the Jewish people of Jesus’ time.

simbagizmo:

According to Scripture, we have to put our Faith in Jesus for salvation.

Yes. And according to Scriptures, this faith comes from Christ. There is only one faith that is shared by many-- Christ shares his faith with us through his body, which is the Church, and enables us to believe in him by the Holy Spirit.

This is the Gospel message. I do not read in God’s Word where any exception is made for those who do not come to Faith.

And if God saves those who have never heard his Word, unbaptized babies, the mentally infirm, or even the Israelites prior to Christ’s incarnation, it is precisely because God’s Word was active in them and drawing them into God’s presence.

In fact, one of the reasons why people reject infant baptism actually works against their own arguments when examined in a solidly Christian conception of his grace clearly revealed.

Fundamentalists refuse to permit the baptism of infants and young children, because they are not yet capable of making such a conscious act. But notice what Jesus said: “to such as these [referring to the infants and children who had been brought to him by their mothers] belongs the kingdom of heaven.” The Lord did not require them to make a conscious decision. He says that they are precisely the kind of people who can come to him and receive the kingdom. So on what basis, Fundamentalists should be asked, can infants and young children be excluded from the sacrament of baptism? If Jesus said “let them come unto me,” who are we to say “no,” and withhold baptism from them?

I would argue that those who are claiming that infants cannot be baptized are actually arguing for a form of works righteousness which refuses to allow God to work precisely because they are claiming that they have to do something before God can work in them.

But, as Romans 5:8 clearly states, the opposite of this is true. In fact, God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. It is God’s work in us which brings us to him-- not our conscious decision to follow him which saves us.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

God has not revealed what happens to those that do not have the capacity to come to faith, whether death of babies or those with no mental capacity.

But God has revealed that he judges in proportion that which he has both revealed and enabled someone to believe. This much is revealed all thoughout the Scriptures and is not a matter of speculation at all.

As this thread I started before pointed out for all to examine, we have explicit references to The Royal Law, Forgiveness of Sins, Condemnation under the Law, Acting in Ignorance, Being Judged in Proportion, and God Being Active Throughout All Time and Creation.

If this doesn’t say something about what happens to those that do not have the capacity to come to faith – whether death of babies or those with no mental capacity – then I am afraid I am simply at a loss to really grasp what you are claiming.

Besides that, Christ comes to us in many ways which me might not perceive using purely human logic.

For example, Christ comes to us in the poor…

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?

When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?

When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

"The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Furthermore, Christ somes to us in our marriage too. For example, we read…

If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. **For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. **Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

And again…
1 Timothy 2:15:

But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

This meshes very easilly with how Christ himself is depicted as the husband faithful and true in regards to the bride of Christ…

“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”

This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.

However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Clearly, the sacrament of marriage and even childbirth leads toward salvation (and is salvific) insofar as Christ reveals himself as the bridegroom through these actions.

Marriage is a union between men and women just as faith is a union between God’s Spirit and the spirit of humanity. And childbirth is the fruit of the union between men and women just as faith in God is the fruit of the union between God and humanity.

In fact, the family itself, looking toward Adam and Eve prior to their fall from grace, illustrates with simple clarity the nature of the Church. In other words, the family itself is a kind of primordial church pointing toward the greater spiritual reality of God’s family as revealed within his Church in Christ.

simbagizmo:

Maybe God does come to them before their death and reveals Himself to them and they do have the capacity to choose God.

Maybe?

There’s this…
John 5:25:

I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

And this…
Matthew 12:40:

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

And this…

(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

And this…
1 Peter 3:18-20:

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

…so, to be fair, I don’t think there’s any valid question about whether God does come to them before their death and reveals Himself to them or not.

Clearly, Jesus did preach to all-- even to the dead.

Of course, this raises an interesting question too: Why would Jesus preach to the dead if the dead were already lost and condemned and simply beyond redemption?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

We may consider those mentally ill or children to not have the capacity to reason as we do, and maybe that is an advantage. They must be fully dependant, where we have the temptation to rely on our intellect.

Exactly. And if salvation is found in them, it’s because God’s Word has saved them,

Not only so. I also tend to think that Christ allows some to share in his suffering in order to bring them to his salvation to. In other, he allows them to go through tribulation in this world order to avoid God’s wrath in the after life.

In other words, Christ is manifesting in their lives and allowing them to partake in his suffering so that they may offer this pain up to God and thereby God saves them through their overcoming of this pain by the Holy Spirit.

simbagizmo:

Even the Catholic Church does not know.

Well…the Catholic Church has no doubts regarding the saints triumphant. Even more so, the Catholic church has made some strong statements as to what she does believe, just as we believe God has revealed through us just as he speak through us.

For example, in regards to those outside the Church, the Church has stated that we reject nothing that is true in faiths outside Christianity.

In this regard, you need to read Lumen Gentium before you can make any solid conclusions about this matter.

And in regards to unbaptized children, the Church, in her wisdom, has also made specific statements regarding their potential for salvation…

On this subject, the 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allows us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.”

The Church could not make this kind of statement unless there really was a chance that unbaptized infants could be saved.

Of course, the reasoning is not so much that unbaptized children will be saved. No one is saved without baptism. Rather, it seems more reasonable to believe that Christ is capable of baptising them in a way that we do not have a sacrament for-- much like the baptism of desire, but conditional upon the faith that the child ‘would have had’ if the conditions had been right for it.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Some churches, like the Catholic Church, try to solve this question with water baptism, saying that baptism with water removes all sins from babies and they go to purgatory or heaven. But this is not Scriptural.

In your theology maybe.

The sacrament of baptism is a miraculous visible sign that God has promised something to this indiviual, much like God placing the bow in the skies as a promise that God will no longer deluge the entire world with water.

Consequently, the Scriptures do make an allusion to baptism in conjunction with the flood waters that Noah and his family were saved both by and through.

The Covenant of the Rainbow is God’s uncompromising promise to us which will remain an everlasting Covenant regardless of what people do. The same is true of baptism too, except that it is a sacrament which, like the flood, saves us by both…

a) …destroying the evil that threatens us…

and

b) …protecting us through through the promise which God has placed upon those who bear this sign from God.

In other words, a baptism is God carving a sign in the fabric of history for the whole world to see-- a visible sign that this person belongs to God’s family and is chosen by God regardless of what others may say.

simbagizmo:

The water baptism taught in Scripture is a believers baptism. It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves which comes to those who put their Faith in Jesus Christ.

I think you’re confusing John’s baptism with Jesus’ baptism to be honest.

simbagizmo:

And to try to use man’s logic and reasoning and teach this as God’s ways, is dangerous and corruptable of the Gospel message.

If this logic is so dangerous, then why does Isaiah 1:18 say…

“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.”

Do we not use use logic when we reason?

Are you not using logic when you reason the way you do in this thread?

simbagizmo:

This is the danger when one teaches outside of Scripture.

If you’re defending some form of Sola Scriptura when making this statement, then I have to ask you exactly what it is that is outside of the scope, scrutiny and judgement of the Scripture’s influence?

I think this is a fair question.