For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith...

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I think this passage is warning against those who think ‘their own’ faith will save them. But it is not our own faith which saves us. It is Christ’s faith which saves us.

As the passage clearly states, this faith is not from ourselves. This faith is from God– through God’s grace. In other words, when Christ is living in us and believing for us, then we are saved through his faith which he shares with us through the Holy Spirit.

 

[rmcmullan]

I once read a “learned analysis” of this scripture, it’s a hotly debated subject among different denominations. The author was taking an interesting position. He said that being saved by works puts all the responsibility for being saved on the individual and if they obey all the commandments and submit to all the ordinances/sacraments, they “earn” their way to heaven. On the other hand, if grace is a gift given freely from God, He can pick whomever and grant them salvation regardless of their works or lack thereof. So on one hand, God grants salvation, on the other, salvation is earned by man.

At the end of this analysis he proffers that the truth is necessarily somewhere in the middle and that both are required. This made a lot of sense to me.

 

[Allweather]

One idea that I’m only recently coming to think about, is that faith itself is a gift from God. My protestant background never instilled this idea in me. Faith was always something that I did, almost like a “work” and when I couldn’t grasp something I attributed it to my failure to have sufficient faith. God’s gift is grace, and my response to it is faith. But lately, I’ve been hearing and reading about this idea that faith itself is a gift, and that some people don’t necessarily have it, or else that they don’t receive it. I still struggle with certain Catholic things, such as transubstantiation, which I am working on by a daily hour in adoration. So maybe I don’t yet have the full measure of faith from God, or else I’m not “activating” it in full. Whatever it is, I find that I need to daily ask God to help my unbelief.

 

[on_fire]

my prayers are with you on your journey my brother,that God will provide all the answers you*** need ***to know…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I once read a “learned analysis” of this scripture, it’s a hotly debated subject among different denominations. The author was taking an interesting position. He said that being saved by works puts all the responsibility for being saved on the individual and if they obey all the commandments and submit to all the ordinances/sacraments, they “earn” their way to heaven. On the other hand, if grace is a gift given freely from God, He can pick whomever and grant them salvation regardless of their works or lack thereof. So on one hand, God grants salvation, on the other, salvation is earned by man.

At the end of this analysis he proffers that the truth is necessarily somewhere in the middle and that both are required. This made a lot of sense to me.

There seems to be an easier answer. God’s grace has been with humanity, at least as offered, since the very beginning.
Acts 17:25-27:

And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

The Church’s teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine’s reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation.

Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God’s grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam’s fault to bad example.

The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable.

Instead of falling into the errors of Pelagianism, it is simply believed that God’s grace has never been entirely broken due to original sin. Therefore, no one has to conclude that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God’s grace, lead a morally good life.

Likewise, instead of falling into the errors of the Protestant reformers, it is again simply believed that God’s grace has never been entirely broken due to original sin. Therefore, no one has to conclude that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom either.

Both Pelagianism and the Protestant reformers seem to arrive at very different conclusions based on the exact same misunderstanding of original sin, an understanding that starts from the assumption that humanity is entirely cut off from God’s grace due to the primal sin of our original parents.

In the case of Pelagianism, Pelagius assumed that, since humanity was entirely cut off from God’s grace due to the primal sin of our original parents, man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God’s grace, lead a morally good life.

In the case of the Protestant reformers, they assumed that, since humanity was entirely cut off from God’s grace due to the primal sin of our original parents, original sin radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom.

The holiest solution to this dilemma is that humanity was never entirely cut off from God’s grace due to original sin in the first place. This is exactly what Catholicism teaches by the way.

 

[Pug]

I think this passage is warning against those who think ‘their own’ faith will save them.

I think perhaps you are reading the passage to say, “by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this [this faith] is not from you.” I tend to read it to say, “by grace you have been saved through faith, and this [this whole thing in the previous phrase, this being saved] is not from you.” Notice my bracket insertions, of course, but also note I don’t have the same comma after “saved” in the second version. I suspect you are using the NIV and not one of the versions I usually use.

Faith is part of Paul’s views, so he places that in there, but the overall point in that section of Ephesians is not about faith. It is about being saved by grace.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

And it was not by works, because you/we were all sinners, children of wrath, which he takes pains to point out in verses 1 through 3 there.

Your comments actually remind me more of that classic passage in Romans 3, which, if you read the KJV, has an “of” there instead of the “in” that we are all so familiar with. This replacement almost allows me to wonder if he is alluding to the faithfulness of Christ (and not precisely our faith IN him) if I think about it really hard and really long. Here, see it in the KJV:

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I think perhaps you are reading the passage to say, “by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this [this faith] is not from you.” I tend to read it to say, “by grace you have been saved through faith, and this [this whole thing in the previous phrase, this being saved] is not from you.” Notice my bracket insertions, of course, but also note I don’t have the same comma after “saved” in the second version.

That is fairly well what I’m saying though. Faith is a gift from God, something which we can freely to accept or reject-- something which comes by God’s grace.

What I’m saying is that “by grace you have been saved through faith, and this faith through God’s grace is not from you.”

Which is pretty much the same thing, I think anyway.

Pug:

I suspect you are using the NIV and not one of the versions I usually use.

Yes. Actually, I am using it.

Pug:

Faith is part of Paul’s views, so he places that in there, but the overall point in that section of Ephesians is not about faith. It is about being saved by grace.

Agreed. But he still does seem to be saying that this faith is God’s faith, which he shares with us by his grace. All things from God comes by his grace-- this much is understood by all Christians I think (even if we don’t always agree with non-Catholics as to what authentically constitutes an authentic manifestation of God’s grace).

Pug:

And it was not by works, because you/we were all sinners, children of wrath, which he takes pains to point out in verses 1 through 3 there.

Yes. I agree. And if someone is claming that they’ve been saved by their faith in God, then they are claiming to have “done something” to earn their salvation. And yet the Scriptures are clear that our own works do not save us. God’s grace saves us.

Pug:

Your comments actually remind me more of that classic passage in Romans 3, which, if you read the KJV, has an “of” there instead of the “in” that we are all so familiar with. This replacement almost allows me to wonder if he is alluding to the faithfulness of Christ (and not precisely our faith IN him) if I think about it really hard and really long. Here, see it in the KJV:

Interesting.

Thoughts expressed in this post and this post more clearly point out what I’m getting at.

 

[simbagizmo]

Yes. I agree. And if someone is claming that they’ve been saved by their faith in God, then they are claiming to have “done something” to earn their salvation. And yet the Scriptures are clear that our own works do not save us. God’s grace saves us.

The Faith Alone doctrine states that one must receive the gift of salvation by putting their faith in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation. So when one is claiming to be saved by their Faith, they have done nothing to earn it, but has received it.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

The Faith Alone doctrine states that one must receive the gift of salvation by putting their faith in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation. So when one is claiming to be saved by their Faith, they have done nothing to earn it, but has received it.

Then why does the Faith Alone doctrine states that one must receive the gift of salvation by putting their faith in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation?

This is claiming for someone to have ‘done something’ to earn their salvation regardless of how it is worded. But we don’t chose God. God chooses us. We’re not placing our faith in anything. God is placing his faith in us.

The proper formula, in order to avoid the conclusion that we’ve ‘done anything’ to earn our salvation, is to state that humanity has ‘done nothing’ to earn its salvation.

Therefore, what can we do to earn our salvation?

Answer: Nothing.

In fact, we have to do nothing to earn our salvation-- because the Lord has prepared in advance the paths that we are to walk in solely by his grace.

As soon as we try to do something on our own, we end up messing up our salvation-- which is exactly what Adam and Eve did. It is only when we do nothing that we are open to God’s Spirit and God uses our souls as instruments to magnify the Lord solely by his grace-- which is exactly what Mary and our Lord did.

We brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. The heavens and the earth were made from nothing. And Jesus likewise made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

 

[simbagizmo]

Then why does the Faith Alone doctrine states that one must receive the gift of salvation by putting their faith in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation?

This is claiming for someone to have ‘done something’ to earn their salvation regardless of how it is worded. But we don’t chose God. God chooses us. We’re not placing our faith in anything. God is placing his faith in us.

The proper formula, in order to avoid the conclusion that we’ve ‘done anything’ to earn our salvation, is to state that humanity has ‘done nothing’ to earn its salvation.

Therefore, what can we do to earn our salvation?

Answer: Nothing.

In fact, we have to do nothing to earn our salvation-- because the Lord has prepared in advance the paths that we are to walk in solely by his grace.

As soon as we try to do something on our own, we end up messing up our salvation-- which is exactly what Adam and Eve did. It is only when we do nothing that we are open to God’s Spirit and God uses our souls as instruments to magnify the Lord solely by his grace-- which is exactly what Mary and our Lord did.

We brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. The heavens and the earth were made from nothing. And Jesus likewise made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Jesus states what we have to do for salvation.

Joh 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Mat 19:21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

A free gift is not yours until you receive it. Salvation is a free gift. We did nothing to earn it, but we must still put our faith in Jesus to receive it. This is the Gospel message. When Paul is talking about being saved by Faith and not works, the works he is talking about is doing good deeds in order to earn or maintain salvation. By doing that, you no longer fall under Grace but the Law, because Grace would no longer by Grace but a debt paid.

I think this passage is warning against those who think ‘their own’ faith will save them. But it is not our own faith which saves us. It is Christ’s faith which saves us.

As the passage clearly states, this faith is not from ourselves. This faith is from God-- through God’s grace. In other words, when Christ is living in us and believing for us, then we are saved through his faith which he shares with us through the Holy Spirit.

The quote above is from you original post. You are mistaken in saying that we are not saved through our faith, but in his faith. Please read the couple of passages where Jesus talks about the believer’s Faith.

Mat 9:22 But Jesus turning and seeing her said, “Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well.” At once the woman was made well.

Mat 9:29 Then He touched their eyes, saying, “It shall be done to you according to your faith.”

Luk 7:50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marveled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

In the Matthew verse, Jesus was said to be amazed at the faith of the centurian.

Mar 6:6 And he marveled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

In the Mark verse, Jesus was amazed at the peoples lack of faith.

The faith in Scripture is not Faith Jesus has in us, but the Faith we have in Him. And our Faith is how we received the gift of salvation. The big question here though is what does it mean to have Faith? According to Scripture Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). This means that Faith is being assured of salvation (they things hoped for by Christians), and acting on your belief (convictions of things not seen). An example of this, is that if you really have faith it is going to rain on the day you planned to go to a football game, you will act on that belief and take your umbrella or raincoat with you. This is the same with Faith in Jesus, you will obey his Word.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Jesus states what we have to do for salvation…

…A free gift is not yours until you receive it. Salvation is a free gift. We did nothing to earn it, but we must still put our faith in Jesus to receive it.

But if you are saying that you must still put your faith in Jesus to receive this free gift, then you are claiming to have done something to earn this free gift.

James asks, “What good is it if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?”

Can such faith save him?

Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?

In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

Bottom line: Faith works. And faith without works is dead.

simbagizmo:

This is the Gospel message. When Paul is talking about being saved by Faith and not works, the works he is talking about is doing good deeds in order to earn or maintain salvation. By doing that, you no longer fall under Grace but the Law, because Grace would no longer by Grace but a debt paid.

And if you’re claiming that it is by your own faith that you are saved, then you are claiming to have done something to have earned this free gift.

simbagizmo:

The quote above is from you original post. You are mistaken in saying that we are not saved through our faith, but in his faith. Please read the couple of passages where Jesus talks about the believer’s Faith.

I have read all of them before. This doesn’t change the fact that Jesus is sharing his faith with them and enabling them to believe.

What ‘power’ do you think left the woman when Jesus said the following?

“Who touched me?” Jesus asked.

When they all denied it, Peter said, “Master, the people are crowding and pressing against you.”

But Jesus said, “Someone touched me; I know that power has gone out from me.”

This ‘power’ is what Paul is refering to in Colossians 1:29 when he says, “To this end I labor, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me.”

This is also what Peter meant when he asked, “Men of Israel, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk?”

He later clarifies, “By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. **It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him **that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see.”

This faith that we have is the very faith that Jesus shares with us through the Holy Spirit. And it’s a portion of Jesus’ faith, the power which he felt leave him when the woman was healed.

In other words, Jesus is not merely ‘believing in us’. He is quite literally living in us and believing on our behalf for us by the Holy Spirit.

As Romans 8:9 says, “You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.”

And as Romans 8:11 says, "And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

That’s why faith is listed as a gift of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12:9. This is also why faith is defined as a gift of God in Ephesians 2:8 too.

simbagizmo:

The faith in Scripture is not Faith Jesus has in us, but the Faith we have in Him.

No. The faith in Scripture is the faith that Jesus imparts to us when he lives within us.

simbagizmo:

And our Faith is how we received the gift of salvation.

No. Our faith is the manifestation of God living within us and believing on our behalf, quite literally the work of the risen Lord enabling us to believe in him by the gift of faith he gives through God the Holy Spirit purely by God’s grace.

As Ephesians 4:7-10 clearly spells out…

But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.

This is why God says:

When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men

.

What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.

 

[simbagizmo]

But if you are saying that you must still put your faith in Jesus to receive this free gift, then you are claiming to have done something to earn this free gift.

James asks, “What good is it if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?”

Can such faith save him?

Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?

In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

Bottom line: Faith works. And faith without works is dead.

I agree with this. This does not contradict the Faith Alone doctrine. Faith Alone doctrine says we are saved by Faith. Through Faith one does works, because Faith by definition is to act on on what one believes (Hebrews 11:1). But Faith Alone means that the action we take because of our Faith is not what saves us. I can do all the good deeds I want, but without Faith, it is worthless. If one has Faith, that is all that is needed for salvation. The Thief on the cross is an example of that. He did nothing but accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior and was saved. No baptism, no communion, no confessing to sins to a rabbi, did not help a old lady, feed the poor. Nothing. He just believed.

And if you’re claiming that it is by your own faith that you are saved, then you are claiming to have done something to have earned this free gift.

What I have done was to admit that I can do nothing and need Jesus. I have accepted His gift of Faith. But once I have accepted this gift it is mine. When someone gives you a gift for Christmas, and you receive the gift, that gift now belongs to you. The ownership of the gift changes from the giver to the receiver once it is received. What did you do to earn that gift? Hopefully nothing. The giver just wanted to give you the gift out of love.

I have read all of them before. This doesn’t change the fact that Jesus is sharing his faith with them and enabling them to believe.

You have stated this accurately when you say that Jesus is enabling them to believe. Jesus does not share his faith, He gives the gift of Faith. But they have to choose to receive it to actually believe. Jesus gives us the ability to believe, but we must accept that gift to believe. Then that faith becomes our faith. Please read the scriptures again. Jesus says “your” faith, not “our” faith. This is ownership.

Luk 22:31 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
Luk 22:32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”

This is not shared faith, but Peter’s Faith. Yes, God called Peter and enabled him to believe. But Peter had to make the decision to believe and then he received the gift of Faith. That Faith he then received is his.

What ‘power’ do you think left the woman when Jesus said the following?

Luk 8:46 But Jesus said, “Someone did touch Me, for I was aware that power had gone out of Me.”
Luk 8:47 When the woman saw that she had not escaped notice, she came trembling and fell down before Him, and declared in the presence of all the people the reason why she had touched Him, and how she had been immediately healed.
Luk 8:48 And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith

The power of healing left Jesus, but “her” Faith made her well. (Luke 8:48). Jesus did not say “My Faith has made you well”

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I agree with this. This does not contradict the Faith Alone doctrine. Faith Alone doctrine says we are saved by Faith.

And faith without works is dead. Therefore, the doctrine of faith alone is in serious error.

Furthermore, where does this faith come from?

We know for example that 1 Corinthians 12:3 says that no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 10:19-21 goes even further and says, “But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.”

This is exactly the same kind of spiritual dynamic understood within the Christian Scriptures to be at work within the Hebrew Scriptures too. For example, 2 Peter 1:21 says, “For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”

In other words, when someone is truthfully speaking truth in regards to God’s revelation, they are not speaking. God is speaking through them. Therefore, the words they speak are a manifestation of God acting though them to reveal his will.

As I pointed out before, the Scriptures are exceptionally clear about how this dynamic works.

1 Peter 1:23 say that you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 2:14 says I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

Colossians 3:16 says to let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

Romans 8:9 says that you are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:16 asks. “Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?”

2 Corinthians 13:4 says he was crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God’s power. Likewise, we are weak in him, yet by God’s power we will** live with him **to serve you.

Galatians 2:20 says I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 2:22 says in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

2 Timothy 1:14 says to guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.

1 John 4:12 says if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

1 John 4:15 says if anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.

1 John 4:16 says and so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

Colossians 1:29 says to this end I labor, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 asks, “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?”

There is a tremendous amount of Scriptural writings which display this interaction between God and man, with God acting through those who believe. However, this belief is not the factual belief in the divine. The adversary believes in the factual existence of God without a doubt-- and yet the adversary is damned nothwithstanding this intellectual consent of God’s existence.

True faith in God comes from God indwelling those who are open to his living Spirit. And their true faith in God is actually a manifestation of God living within them and believing on their behalf-- just as God speaks through us by the Spirit, God also believes through us by the same Spirit.

As John 6:63 says, “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.”

Just as Jesus came so that we may know know and understand that the Father is in him, and he in the Father, so do we reveal to the world that Jesus is in us, and we in Jesus.

Unlike Jesus, however, we are not God. And yet Jesus living within us by the Holy Spirit us tends to divinise the flesh as he acts through us to reveal his will to the world.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Through Faith one does works, because Faith by definition is to act on on what one believes (Hebrews 11:1). But Faith Alone means that the action we take because of our Faith is not what saves us.

And yet John 3:21 say that whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.

And, again, Romans 8:28 says that we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Also 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 says that there are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. And there are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

Looking solely at the Scriptures, we see God working the messages of wisdom, messages of knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, miraculous powers, prophesying, distinguishing between spirits, speaking in different kinds of tongues, and the interpretation of tongues.

All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Again, Ephesians 2:10 says that we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Likewise, Philippians 2:13 says that it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Clearly, without question, having faith in God is the manifestation – the visible sign of – God living within them.

simbagizmo:

I can do all the good deeds I want, but without Faith, it is worthless.

No. The point of the matter is that no deed is considered good unless the deed in question is an act of God working through them by his Holy Spirit-- including faith in God which is called a ‘work’ even in the Scriptures.

continued…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

continued…

…continued

simbagizmo:

If one has Faith, that is all that is needed for salvation. The Thief on the cross is an example of that. He did nothing but accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior and was saved. No baptism, no communion, no confessing to sins to a rabbi, did not help a old lady, feed the poor. Nothing. He just believed.

Actually, he did confess his sins…
Luke 23:41:

We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.

…,and he confessed the innocence of Christ in this very same paragraph. Later, he even proclaimed before all people present that Jesus was the King of Heaven.

Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

Certainly, this is a powerful testimony toward the Lord.

Consequently, there was a baptism involved. The thief on the cross was baptized in the same way that James and John were to be later baptized…

They replied, “Let one of us sit at your right and the other at your left in your glory.”

“You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said. “Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?”

“We can,” they answered.

Jesus said to them, “You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared.”

simbagizmo:

What I have done was to admit that I can do nothing and need Jesus. I have accepted His gift of Faith. But once I have accepted this gift it is mine.

Accepting something means you’ve done something. Accepting is a work of God’s grace which leads to the manifestation of faith by the Holy Spirit. You can’t even accept this gift unless you are moved by the Holy Spirit and God is working within you to do so.

simbagizmo:

When someone gives you a gift for Christmas, and you receive the gift, that gift now belongs to you. The ownership of the gift changes from the giver to the receiver once it is received. What did you do to earn that gift? Hopefully nothing. The giver just wanted to give you the gift out of love.

You accepted it, didn’t you?

Acceptance is an action, a work, no matter how passive it may appear. And I’m stating that anyone who says they’ve accepted this gift of their own free will is claiming to have done something to earn this gift.

We can do nothing to earn this grace.

simbagizmo:

You have stated this accurately when you say that Jesus is enabling them to believe. Jesus does not share his faith, He gives the gift of Faith. But they have to choose to receive it to actually believe.

Then if they have to choose it, then they have to do an action of faith-- and yet no faith comes except by the Holy Spirit, right?

simbagizmo:

Jesus gives us the ability to believe, but we must accept that gift to believe.

No. We must do nothing. In fact, God demands that we do nothing of our own free-will – because our own free-will leads to sin and death. It is only when we do nothing that the motion of the Spirit can move us to believe that God then indwells us and believes on our behalf by the Holy Spirit.

simbagizmo:

Then that faith becomes our faith. Please read the scriptures again. Jesus says “your” faith, not “our” faith. This is ownership.

You can quote as many Scriptures as you want. It doesn’t change the fact that God is doing the work in us-- as I’ve repeatedly demonstrated. And everytime you claim to accept this free gift, you are partially making it into an action on your part that you need to cooperate with in order to allow to happen.

I am stressing that we can do, must do, nothing to earn our salvation. Only the Spirit of God can work in us to believe-- that why it’s called a gift of the Holy Spirit. That’s why it’s called grace.

This sholdn’t be mixed up with irresistable grace either-- because one can obviously resist this grace if they so choose.

My only point is that no one chooses God. God chooses us. He chose us from the very beginning. And if we do nothing then God will work through us to believe on his name. He will believe for us as he indwells us and believes on our behalf.

 

[simbagizmo]

And faith without works is dead. Therefore, the doctrine of faith alone is in serious error.

No, Faith without works is not Faith. Scriptural definition of Faith is Assurance and conviction (Hebrews 11). Conviction meaning acting on your belief. So if one says he has faith, but does not act on his belief, he has no faith. Faith Alone doctrine states assurace of salvation through Faith. There is no error here.

True faith in God comes from God indwelling those who are open to his living Spirit. And their true faith in God is actually a manifestation of God living within them and believing on their behalf-- just as God speaks through us by the Spirit, God also believes through us by the same Spirit.

This is were we part. “God believes through us by the same Spirit”. Please explain this. What is God believing through us?

If you read what is said about Faith in Scripture, it always talks about Faith being the believers Faith, not God’s Faith. Yes, Faith is a gift from God, but once received it belongs to the believer, not shared. I would be happy to read the Scripture verse that states that a believer’s faith is shared or the verse that states God believing through us. You know as well as I do that Scripture shows many verses describing the believer’s Faith as belonging to the believer.

 

[simbagizmo]

Looking solely at the Scriptures, we see God working the messages of wisdom, messages of knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, miraculous powers, prophesying, distinguishing between spirits, speaking in different kinds of tongues, and the interpretation of tongues.

All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Again, Ephesians 2:10 says that we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Likewise, Philippians 2:13 says that it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Clearly, without question, having faith in God is the manifestation – the visible sign of – God living within them.

Again, I do not disagree here. Faith is a sign of us in Christ and Christ in us. This is not disputed by me. The topic I am trying to focus on is your assertion that one’s faith is not one’s faith. Previous response post for more detail.

No. The point of the matter is that no deed is considered good unless the deed in question is an act of God working through them by his Holy Spirit-- including faith in God which is called a ‘work’ even in the Scriptures.

continued…

True. But some people that they have to do good deeds in order to show that they have faith, or to receive more grace, or to earn more credits for heaven. My point is just as one saying he has faith but shows no actions is not in faith, one that does actions to earn something other then doing it through faith is also not in faith. One can go to church, help the poor, and show kindness to his neighbor. But without Faith, he is still without salvation.

 

[simbagizmo]

Actually, he did confess his sins…

Can you give me the verse where he confessed his sins.

Luk 23:40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
Luk 23:41 “And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”
Luk 23:42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”

He state he is deserving of death for his deeds, but I do not see a confession of his deeds. This is confessing that he is sinful and that Jesus is Lord and Savior as Paul states

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Consequently, there was a baptism involved. The thief on the cross was baptized in the same way that James and John were to be later baptized…

Sure, this is the Spirit and being reborn as discussed in John. But this is done by the Holy Spirit and not by the thief. This happens when one comes receives the gift of Faith.

Accepting something means you’ve done something. Accepting is a work of God’s grace which leads to the manifestation of faith by the Holy Spirit. You can’t even accept this gift unless you are moved by the Holy Spirit and God is working within you to do so.

True. But I have to choose to accept it.

Mat 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

I could choose to reject it like the prince

Mat 19:21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away

So yes, we do have to make a choice. God’s does not force us to accept His gift of Faith. So if you want to consider this work, then this is one we must do. But this is not the Work as talked about by Paul and James.

You accepted it, didn’t you?

Acceptance is an action, a work, no matter how passive it may appear. And I’m stating that anyone who says they’ve accepted this gift of their own free will is claiming to have done something to earn this gift.

We can do nothing to earn this grace.

Then if they have to choose it, then they have to do an action of faith-- and yet no faith comes except by the Holy Spirit, right?

No. We must do nothing. In fact, God demands that we do nothing of our own free-will – because our own free-will leads to sin and death. It is only when we do nothing that the motion of the Spirit can move us to believe that God then indwells us and believes on our behalf by the Holy Spirit.

You can quote as many Scriptures as you want. It doesn’t change the fact that God is doing the work in us-- as I’ve repeatedly demonstrated. And everytime you claim to accept this free gift, you are partially making it into an action on your part that you need to cooperate with in order to allow to happen.

I am stressing that we can do, must do, nothing to earn our salvation. Only the Spirit of God can work in us to believe-- that why it’s called a gift of the Holy Spirit. That’s why it’s called grace.

This sholdn’t be mixed up with irresistable grace either-- because one can obviously resist this grace if they so choose.

My only point is that no one chooses God. God chooses us. He chose us from the very beginning. And if we do nothing then God will work through us to believe on his name. He will believe for us as he indwells us and believes on our behalf.

Do you believe in free will to choose Faith or do you believe God forces salvation on the elect? If the Faith I have is not mine by God’s, do you believe one can fall out of Faith? If so, how does this work if one cannot choose and Faith is God’s?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

No, Faith without works is not Faith. Scriptural definition of Faith is Assurance and conviction (Hebrews 11). Conviction meaning acting on your belief. So if one says he has faith, but does not act on his belief, he has no faith. Faith Alone doctrine states assurace of salvation through Faith. There is no error here.

But faith alone means faith and works. There’s really no getting around this part.

simbagizmo:

This is were we part. “God believes through us by the same Spirit”. Please explain this. What is God believing through us?

What is God speaking through us?

What is God performing miracles through us?

What is God loving humanity through us?

simbagizmo:

If you read what is said about Faith in Scripture, it always talks about Faith being the believers Faith, not God’s Faith. Yes, Faith is a gift from God, but once received it belongs to the believer, not shared. I would be happy to read the Scripture verse that states that a believer’s faith is shared or the verse that states God believing through us. You know as well as I do that Scripture shows many verses describing the believer’s Faith as belonging to the believer.

There’s also passages which talk about Jesus being raised to life by God. More specifically, you know as well as I do that Scriptures show many verses describing the resurrection as being an act of God almost independent of Jesus’ power.

For example…
Acts 2:24:

But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

And again…
Acts 2:32:

God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.

And again…
Acts 3:15:

You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

If you read what is said about Jesus’ resurrection in Scripture, it many times talks about Jesus being raised by God’s power, not Jesus’ power.

Do these passages mean that Jesus is not God?

No. Jesus is God. Jesus raised himself from the dead by his own divine power because he is God. More to the point, Jesus ascended to heaven by his own power because Jesus is God.

In a similar way, I am submitting for you considereation the idea that the Scriptural verses which talk about the believer’s faith are actually talking about the faith that Jesus shares with us mere humans by the Holy Spirit.

The many of Scriptural verses which do talk about Jesus living within us and acting through us by the Holy Spirit seem to strongly indicate that this is indeed what is going on.

 

[simbagizmo]

But faith alone means faith and works. There’s really no getting around this part.

I have always stated that Faith by definition is conviction. But works is not necessary for salvation. Works done is response to Faith is different than works done to earn Faith or Grace.

What is God speaking through us?
What is God performing miracles through us?
What is God loving humanity through us?

This doesn’t answer my question. You stated
“God believes through us by the same Spirit”. I asked what is God believing through us?

There’s also passages which talk about Jesus being raised to life by God. More specifically, you know as well as I do that Scriptures show many verses describing the resurrection as being an act of God almost independent of Jesus’ power.

Not to be disrespectful here, but this again does not address my point. You stated that our Faith is not our Faith, but God’s faith, or shared faith. My point was that this is not supported by Scripture. Scripture talks about the believer’s Faith as being the believer’s Faith, not God’s Faith nor shared Faith. I asked for Scripture that references an individuals Faith as not the individuals Faith that you used to support your statement. Because I only read Faith as belong to the individual. When Jesus talks about one Faith, he states “your Faith”, not “our Faith” or “my Faith”.

In a similar way, I am submitting for you considereation the idea that the Scriptural verses which talk about the believer’s faith are actually talking about the faith that Jesus shares with us mere humans by the Holy Spirit.

That fine. You can consider that. But take God at his word when he states “your Faith”, not “my Faith” or “shared Faith”. The Faith the believers have in Scripture is in fact their Faith. This is stated over and over again.

The many of Scriptural verses which do talk about Jesus living within us and acting through us by the Holy Spirit seem to strongly indicate that this is indeed what is going on.

Again, I am agreeing with you that when one chooses Faith, one is in Jesus and Jesus in Him. This is not being questioned. I am talking about whose Faith it is. Faith is a gift from God, given to those who choose to receive it. Forsaken to those who choose to disregard it. The Faith is then the believers Faith.

Here are some verses. Ask yourself one question, whose Faith is it? God lays this out pretty simply and clearly.

Mat 9:22 But Jesus turning and seeing her said, “Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well.” At once the woman was made well.

Mat 9:29 Then He touched their eyes, saying, “It shall be done to you according to your faith.”

Mat 15:28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.

Here is a good one that Jesus even was amazed with.

Mat 8:8 But the centurion said, "Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
Mat 8:9 “For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.”
Mat 8:10 Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.

These verses, and many more, shows the Jesus is referring to is in fact the believers Faith. What is scripture do you uses to support that these people’s is not their faith? Because scripture is clear that it is their faith.