"For many" vs. "For all men"

[Chatter163]

Wikipedia is not infallible

Sure it is is! It was promulgated in 2001 by Pope Wiki I.

 

[peary]

Could we say that “pro multis” can be translated as “for the multitude”?..of believers?

 

[VociMike]

Salvation given to us through the sheding of Christ blood, is open to all men, not just the elect few.

That’s beside the point. The Missale Romanum plainly says “for many”, not “for all”. Nobody has the authority to change the wording in making a vernacular translation. Not that that lack of authority stopped them.

 

[VociMike]

By definition, the Canonical Gospels are correct as they were written by the Evangelists. Since they were written in Greek, they are correct in the Greek.

Exactly.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

That’s beside the point. The Missale Romanum plainly says “for many”, not “for all”. Nobody has the authority to change the wording in making a vernacular translation. Not that that lack of authority stopped them.

The Missale Romanum isnt unchangable. Popes can and have changed the rubrics over the centuries. Changing from “for many,” to “for all,” says more about the magnitude of salvation God offers all human beings, throught Jesus Christ, than “for many.”

Jim

 

[peary]

The Missale Romanum isnt unchangable. Popes can and have changed the rubrics over the centuries. Changing from “for many,” to “for all,” says more about the magnitude of salvation God offers all human beings, throught Jesus Christ, than “for many.”

Jim

Does it really? If you reject Christ, your’re not even part of either the “for all” or “for many”

 

[HailMary]

How come in the English translation of the mass, the words of consecration change “for many” to “for all”? Was this just done for the english translation, or for all of the translations? Is there some good reason for it? I keep hearing BAD reasons for it and was wondering if there is some justification?

WHICH FOR YOU AND FOR
MANY SHALL BE SHED
UNTO THE REMISSION OF
SINS.

IT WILL BE
SHED FOR YOU AND FOR
ALL MEN SO THAT SINS
MAY BE FORGIVEN.

There is no difference. Consider how St. Paul wrote:

11 And not only so; but also we glory in God, through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received reconciliation. 12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned. 13 For until the law sin was in the world; but sin was not imputed, when the law was not. 14 But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also the gift. For if by the offence of one, many died; much more the grace of God, and the gift, by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.​

In one sentence he used the word “many” and “all” to describe the same context.

 

[HailMary]

Does anyone know whether the eastern orthodox and catholic rites say “for many” or “for all”?

In the Chaldean Catholic rite, we say:

And we also, O Lord, your deficient, feeble and miserable servants who are assembled in the Name of your Son, and who stand before you at this moment, having received by tradition the example that comes from him, while rejoicing and glorifying, praising and magnifying, commemorate and perform this great, awesome, holy, life-giving and divine Mystery of the passion, death, burial and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, as he taught us:

For when the time came when he would suffer and approach death, on that night on which he was betrayed, he took bread into his holy hands and, raising his eyes to you, his almighty Father, gave thanks and blessed. He broke and gave it to his disciples, saying: take, all of you, and eat of it: this is my Body, which is broken for you, for the forgiveness of sins.

People: Amen.

Likewise, after they had eaten, he took the pure cup into his holy hands, gave thanks to you and blessed; he gave it to his disciples, saying: take, all of you, and drink from it: this is my Blood of the new and everlasting covenant, which is shed for you and for many, for the forgiveness of sins.

People: Amen.

Chaldean Liturgy

btw, please, anyone reading this, pray for my brother, my two good friends, and two more young men who tomorrow will be announced at the Divine Liturgy that they will be joining a house for priestly discernment.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Does it really? If you reject Christ, your’re not even part of either the “for all” or “for many”

The offer of salvation from Jesus Christ is to all men. It doesn’t mean all men accept the gift he offers, but nonetheless, he offers it.

Jim

 

[jj2011]

Could we say that “pro multis” can be translated as “for the multitude”?..of believers?

I heard that the French translation does say “for the multitude.”

The correct rendering is “for many,” as the Roman Catechism explains and as all the bibles and liturgies had it, before Vatican II.

 

[Phemie]

Could we say that “pro multis” can be translated as “for the multitude”?..of believers?

That’s how it’s translated into French “pour vous et pour la multitude en rémission des péchés.”

I’ve never been to a Spanish Mass but I was told by a Spanish priest that ‘pro multis’ is translated as ‘por todos’, so it’s not just the English who’ve used ‘all’ for ‘many’.