For Mueller, this is only the beginning

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JoshuaIsLord

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The groundwork for collusion
Mueller’s path to proving collusion is
  1. identifying what the Russians did;
  2. determining if they violated any federal laws; and
  3. finding evidence that US persons helped Russia in its efforts.
The indictment shows that Mueller has found evidence of (1) and (2). The indictment also shows that Russia did enlist the help of US persons in several aspects of its operations. These include “unwitting” members of Trump’s campaign involved “in local community outreach … that supported then-candidate Trump.”
The fact that the indictment states that some members of the campaign were “unwitting” does not preclude the possibility that Mueller has evidence that campaign members wittingly assisted Russia as well.

The key here is the charge of “conspiracy,” which is the legal term for "collusion." Anyone who knowingly helped Russia in any aspect of its operation can be charged with conspiracy – or aiding and abetting the conspiracy. Remember that Mueller can always amend or “supersede” the indictment to include additional defendants. In fact, the introduction to the indictment indicates that Russians conspired with “persons known … to the grand jury” – which may include American defendants who have already been charged or are under investigation.
 
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Wishful thinking.

Mueller will indict Trump if he can without looking ridiculous. Failing that, and if Dems win the House in 2018, he’ll work on providing materials for impeachment. The effort will lose in the Senate, of course, but it will make impeachment the only issue in 2020.

So Mueller has to keep this going until at least November, 2018, and the Dems will keep it going until 2020.

And meanwhile, Putin is laughing at them for being his useful fools.
 
What a scary time this is - maybe the scariest of my lifetime. The USA is under attack from a foreign government, and there is NO national security response forthcoming!
 
It will be interesting once eveyone returns from being off today. To see how we actually responds to this.
 
JoshuaIsLord said:
It will be interesting once eveyone returns from being off today. To see how we actually responds to this.
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The person who should be responding to a national security threat is the man-baby occupying the WH, but he is too broken to get it together.
 
HCTC said:
What a scary time this is - maybe the scariest of my lifetime. The USA is under attack from a foreign government, and there is NO national security response forthcoming!
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We’re always under attack by more than one foreign government. But to me, the lack of response is like a body’s lack of immune response to cancer cells. First the immune system has to recognize them. I genuinely don’t think Americans understand what the Kremlin was really doing with this. This wasn’t a “Trump collusion”. It was Putin capitalizing on and exacerbating political hostilities in this country in order to persecute and paralyze whatever candidate was elected.

Think about it. If Clinton had won, does anybody really think things would be different? No, Mueller would not have been appointed because the top DOJ people would have been on her side. But that doesn’t mean congress, rank and file FBI and the Inspector General would have let it go, and particularly if Putin dropped the “right kind” of information on Uranium One. Does anybody really think Putin would have let that go?
 
Ridgerunner said:
Think about it. If Clinton had won, does anybody really think things would be different? No, Mueller would not have been appointed because the top DOJ people would have been on her side. But that doesn’t mean congress, rank and file FBI and the Inspector General would have let it go, and particularly if Putin dropped the “right kind” of information on Uranium One. Does anybody really think Putin would have let that go?
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What woulda happened is so beside the point. This is all about what’s happening NOW!
 
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HCTC said:
What woulda happened is so beside the point. This is all about what’s happening NOW!
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Actually, it isn’t. This Russia “troll farm” business is not about Russia helping Trump or Clinton, either one. It tried to help Trump and then to harm him. It’s not about Trump or Clinton, either one. It’s about paralyzing the U.S. government, and it’s succeeding.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Actually, it isn’t. This Russia “troll farm” business is not about Russia helping Trump or Clinton, either one. It tried to help Trump and then to harm him. It’s not about Trump or Clinton, either one. It’s about paralyzing the U.S. government, and it’s succeeding.
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The ONLY thing that is important now is what is our government going to do to protect this country TODAY!
 
HCTC said:
The ONLY thing that is important now is what is our government going to do to protect this country TODAY!
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Probably the only thing is to issue warrants for the 13 Russians who will never face trial, and look for “troll factories” in the future. Should have been easy enough to discover previously, and I think the Obama admin did know about it. They just didn’t think it was serious enough to do anything.

But the harm to the government and the body politic is not going to be fixed. It’s baked in now. And that was the point all along.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Probably the only thing is to issue warrants for the 13 Russians who will never face trial, and look for “troll factories” in the future.
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This is key. These allegations will never be tried. Mueller can make up anything about Russians. He can use indictments to create a political narrative that will never be challenged. I suspect the worst thing for Mueller would be if he actually had to make a case in court.
 
exnihilo said:
This is key. These allegations will never be tried. Mueller can make up anything about Russians. He can use indictments to create a political narrative that will never be challenged. I suspect the worst thing for Mueller would be if he actually had to make a case in court.
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That’s your story, and you’re sticking to it?
 
Ridgerunner said:
And meanwhile, Putin is laughing at them for being his useful fools.
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Oh Putin is laughing all right. But not because of why you and Donald Trump think he is.

Putin’s laughing because he has Donald Trump in his back pocket and is getting away with interfering in a US election with another election less than 9 mos away.

For some reason Donald Trump seems to fear Putin as he goes around attacking Oprah and everyone else… except Putin.

Trump has been unwilling even to place the sanctions onto Russia which were passed not long ago by a huge margin on a bipartisan basis.

So something is not adding up when it comes to Donald Trump’s bromance with Putin.

Perhaps Putin has something on Donald Trump that Trump doesn’t want out. Something maybe financially related or something dealing with womanizing. But something.
 
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You think those guys will ever stand trial? You think Mueller will ever be forced to prove this case in court?

This was an easy slam dunk for Mueller; he doesn’t have to worry about blowback from a failed prosecution because this will never ever go to trial. So the media buys his line and convicts the perps in absentia, and keeps the anti-Trump hype going. Perfect!

My take … that’s all he can come up with? He has access via FISA warrants and the Deep State to everything the FBI, the CIA and the NSA have … and that’s all he can give? Remember William Binney, who was one of the key designers of the NSA spy program said that if such a Russiagate plot really existed, the NSA would already have the evidence and no investigation would be necessary.

Look, the Russian hacking of Hillary’s emails that was hyped practically every day is nowhere to be found here. With the degree of flaming rhetoric heaped by Democrats on Trump voters during 2016, how much more discord could 13 Russians add, anyway? No wonder they had to say what those 13 Russians did changed nothing about the election results.

Nothing about a Trump/Putin conspiracy as Mueller alleges the Russians’ plans started in 2014, long before Trump came to prominence.

How much did the 13 Russians spend? A measly $1.2m, a drop in the bucket of $2.65b spent by Trump and Clinton, and the $6.8b total spend by all presidential candidates.

What the heck? There is nothing here. Instead we get this nonsense indictment that will never go to trial after 9 months of what exactly. Now I understand why Trump is letting Mueller stay where he is. Mueller is being left to twist in the wind.

Worse yet for Mueller, as a result of a court order issued last Friday by the judge in charge of Flynn’s case, it is possible that Flynn may have grounds on the basis of “government misconduct” to withdraw his guilty plea. Read this and follow the links in this article and then you may understand the pickle Mueller is in: Michael Flynn plea reversal?
 
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Mueller didn’t prove the Russian interference actually changed the result. Actually he didn’t prove anything, would have to go to trial to do that and guess what, there will never be a trial so Mueller gets to thump his chest for what exactly?
 
Zzyzx_Road said:
Mueller didn’t prove the Russian interference actually changed the result. Actually he didn’t prove anything, would have to go to trial to do that and guess what, there will never be a trial so Mueller gets to thump his chest for what exactly?
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Well no one can prove if the interference affected any votes or not. Trump barely won the election by winning very close races in PA, FL, MI, WI. That’s another reason Trump downplays Russian interference while tweeting what a great candidate he was. Because in his mind he can’t live with the idea that Russia was involved in an election in which he squeaked by in a handful of states. He has a hard enough time accepting he did not win the popular vote. Mueller gets to “thump his chest” as you put it, that he proved to Donald Trump and his followers that they have been wrong. That it was not a hoax.
 
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Zzyzx_Road said:
You think those guys will ever stand trial?
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I think that they will go on the Interpol wanted list - which will curtail their travel options… so if they aren’t very careful, yes, they might go on trial.
 
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Pretty much. And it’s also about sowing division among the American people. I’d liken it to another form of terrorism. It’s an attack on the psyche of the American people.

With the world’s negative opinion of the United States over the last decade or so, even among our allies, it’s no wonder that the internet is being used to make things worse by opportunists. Russia’s not the only one either.

And to make things worse we have Trump insulting our allies.

Yes Putin is laughing alright.
 
We get the leaders and elected officials we deserve.

Sometimes I think the Deep State is in some ways saving us from ourselves.

If the American public wants “Government of the people, by the people, for the people” …
Then they better get busy voting out all the incumbents and elect those who display some semblance of statesmanship and a true love of the American Constitution.

(Now please excuse me while I walk into my bedroom and look into the mirror and say “good luck with that pipe dream” )
 
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