For Non-Catholic Christians: Is obeying the Ten Commandments necessary for salvation?

[Mannyfit75]

Jesus told the woman your faith has saved you. Period. That means exactly what it says and this is from Jesus himself.

I would like to pull a quote from AlegreFe if you don’t mind.

This is exactly right. We put our faith in Jesus Christ, believe that he alone can bring us salvation. That nothing I can do will be good enough. Doing this, we are given Grace and salvation and are born again in Spirit. Hence salvation through faith, the Faith Alone doctrine. To not misquote AlegreFe, he does not come to the conclustion of Faith Alone, but Grace Alone. I do not want to misrepresent his view. But his statement was very well said.

Once we put our faith in Jesus, we are reborn in Spirit, we are a new creation

Being a new creature in Christ, we are created for good works.

Now through faith we are in Christ and he in us. The works we now do are not our works, but the works of Christ. For once we have put our faith in Him, we seek to do His will, instead of our own. Therefore all works done is to and for the Glory of Christ, not of ourselves. We cannot take credit for them, nor boast in them. But the works we do, increases our reward in heaven.

And these works done by the faithful will be tested with fire, and the faithful will receive his reward based on the works that are not burned up.

But please notice the very last sentence. “but he himself will be saved”. Even though the faithful may have all his works burned up, because he did them for his own glory and not for God, he may receive no reward in heaven, but “he himself will be saved”.

Does this contradict James? Well, we all know that it cannot. Scripture will never contradict.

Does one who professes to have faith, really have faith if they do not show it by works? Jesus says no.

This is what James is writing about. Though one may profess or even believe that Jesus is the Christ, they have not put their faith in him nor repented. So, as James says, “Faith without works in dead”. But nowhere does James say that works effects salvation. He states it is an indicator of faith. So Paul and James do not contradict.

We are saved by Faith, through Grace, and Faith is shown by works. This is the Faith Alone doctrine.

It is not by faith alone.

If you say faith alone, how can you say grace saves you? Alone means by itself and it is not dependent on other things.

Are you saying that faith is greater than love? Since God said, “You shall love your God with all your heart, with all your soul?”

Like I said numerous, numerous times. Sola Fide, or faith alone is a erroneous doctrine that is not Biblical.

No where does it say in the Bible, that we are saved by faith alone. The verse when Jesus said, "Your faith has saved you does not prove the erroneous doctrine of faith alone.

Jesus did not say, faith alone saves you. The only verse that has faith alone is James 2:24. “You see that a man is justified by works not by faith alone.”

the entire James 2 speaks of Abraham showing his faith by doing good works. He show his faith to God by offering his son Isaac. He actually done something.

The Protestant Doctrine of faith alone is not Biblical and throughout the entire Scripture, that it is not faith alone that saves, it is the sancifying grace of God.

 

[AlegreFe]

AlegreFe:

But we get Grace through Faith. And we show our Faith with works.

This is exactly right. We put our faith in Jesus Christ, believe that he alone can bring us salvation. That nothing I can do will be good enough. Doing this, we are given Grace and salvation and are born again in Spirit. Hence salvation through faith, the Faith Alone doctrine. To not misquote AlegreFe, he does not come to the conclustion of Faith Alone, but Grace Alone. I do not want to misrepresent his view. But his statement was very well said.

Yes, GRACE ALONE, through Faith which is shown by my works. Which means NOT by faith alone.

BTW, I’m a “she” not a “he.”

simbagizmo:

We are saved by Faith, through Grace, and Faith is shown by works. This is the Faith Alone doctrine.

You got that backwards. And “Faith Alone” does not exist. It’s FALSE.

By Grace, through Faith shown by my works. It’s all right there.


4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love
he had for us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us
to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the
heavens in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable
riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,
and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.
10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for
the good works that God has prepared in
advance, that we should live in them. Eph 2:4-10

==================================

24 See how a person is justified by works
and not by faith alone. Jas 2:24

 

[AlegreFe]

And these works done by the faithful will be tested with fire, and the faithful will receive his reward based on the works that are not burned up.

You got that right! And that’s Purgatory!

But please notice the very last sentence. “but he himself will be saved”. Even though the faithful may have all his works burned up, because he did them for his own glory and not for God, he may receive no reward in heaven, but “he himself will be saved”.

You’re somewhat mistaken. The good works will be saved also. Good works that God prepared in advance for us can NEVER be burned up.

10 According to the grace of God given to me,
like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and
another is building upon it. But each one must be
careful how he builds upon it,
11 for no one can lay a foundation other than the one
that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.
12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver,
precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day
will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire
(itself) will test the quality of each one’s work.
14 If the work stands that someone built upon
the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
15 But if someone’s work is burned up, that
one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but
only as through fire. 1 Cor 3:10-15

If I don’t keep the 10 Commandments, then I will not have any good works to show when that time comes. If I do things that go against those commandments, they will be burned up in the fires. But since I will repent of my sins I will still be saved but only through fire. That “fire” is purgatory. God has forgiven me for my sins but the temporal punishment due to my sins is still there so they have to be burned up in the fires of Purgatory which I like to put it in better terms, “God’s consuming Love and mercy for me.”

 

[simbagizmo]

You got that right! And that’s Purgatory!

I am not discussing Purgatory, but trying to explain the Faith Alone doctrine.

You’re somewhat mistaken. The good works will be saved also. Good works that God prepared in advance for us can NEVER be burned up.

I never said good works will be burned up. With the goods works that hold up to the fire, one will gain their reward. I only stated that if all of one’s works get burned up, the person will loose all his reward, but not his salvation.

10 According to the grace of God given to me,
like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and
another is building upon it. But each one must be
careful how he builds upon it,
11 for no one can lay a foundation other than the one
that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.
12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver,
precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day
will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire
(itself) will test the quality of each one’s work.
14 If the work stands that someone built upon
the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
15 But if someone’s work is burned up, that
one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but
only as through fire. 1 Cor 3:10-15

If I don’t keep the 10 Commandments, then I will not have any good works to show when that time comes. If I do things that go against those commandments, they will be burned up in the fires. But since I will repent of my sins I will still be saved but only through fire. That “fire” is purgatory. God has forgiven me for my sins but the temporal punishment due to my sins is still there so they have to be burned up in the fires of Purgatory which I like to put it in better terms, “God’s consuming Love and mercy for me.”

I am not arguing Purgatory here, just trying to explain the Faith Alone doctrine. And based on your comment, you seem to agree that your salvation is not based on works, but on your faith.

Some Protestants think that Faith Alone means that you have to do is say a prayer or believe that Christ was the son of God and you will be saved, hence Faith Alone. Meaning that does not have to change thier life a bit. They can continue sinning without remorse, because there is always more grace.

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

I can tell by the comments on this forum, this is the image that Catholics also have of Faith Alone doctrine, and Catholics correctly use James to discredit this believe. But this is not the Faith Alone doctrine. But Catholics use James incorrectly, to state that we are not saved by Faith alone. To believe that, puts Scripture in contradiction with itself. For Paul clearly states we are saved by Faith, not by works.

Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Scriptures cannot contradict itself. Also, reading James, he never states that we are saved by works. He states that works in an indicator of faith. And this is the same as Jesus teaches by knowing peoples faith by the fruits they produce. Lack of good works, should question ones existance of faith. This is true and the Faith Alone doctrine agrees with this. With the Faith Alone doctrine, their is one work that one must do. That is to put one’s faith in Jesus Christ, admit the he cannot get to heaven on his own works, die to oneself, and let Jesus in. When one does this, puts his faith in Jesus, we are then saved by Faith.

With Faith, true living faith, one live cannot help to the changed and altered to follow Christ. One with saving faith will not make provisions to be breaking God’s law. And when one does, there is repentance of it, and God’s Grace comes and it is forgiven.

But my point is that it is still Faith that saves, not Faith plus works, not Faith plus Grace. It is living Faith, that ushers in Christ and Grace. With living Faith, even if I do no works that stand against the fire and they all burn up, I will loose my reward, but not my salvation. "but the person will be saved, but only as through fire. Living Faith alone brings salvation, without it we continue to stand condemned.

 

[simbagizmo]

Yes, GRACE ALONE, through Faith which is shown by my works. Which means NOT by faith alone.

We cannot receive the Grace without Faith. When one chooses Faith, one receives Grace. Faith alone ushers in the Grace. So it is Faith that is the crux of salvation. With it, I am assured salvation. Without, I am assured condemnation.

 

[AlegreFe]

We cannot receive the Grace without Faith. When one chooses Faith, one receives Grace. Faith alone ushers in the Grace. So it is Faith that is the crux of salvation. With it, I am assured salvation. Without, I am assured condemnation.

Sorry, you’re wrong… but not completely. There can be people that have no faith at all. Then one day someone can tell them about Jesus. They can either be closed to it or wide open. The only way they can be wide open to the Truth is with God’s Grace. The grace is a gift that God’s gives us. There is no way one can be faithful without the Grace of God. I can be doing something good but I have to give that credit to God because if it wasn’t for His Grace then I wouldn’t have done those “good things.”

 

[simbagizmo]

It is not by faith alone.

If you say faith alone, how can you say grace saves you? Alone means by itself and it is not dependent on other things.

Are you saying that faith is greater than love? Since God said, “You shall love your God with all your heart, with all your soul?”

Like I said numerous, numerous times. Sola Fide, or faith alone is a erroneous doctrine that is not Biblical.

No where does it say in the Bible, that we are saved by faith alone. The verse when Jesus said, "Your faith has saved you does not prove the erroneous doctrine of faith alone.

Jesus did not say, faith alone saves you. The only verse that has faith alone is James 2:24. “You see that a man is justified by works not by faith alone.”

the entire James 2 speaks of Abraham showing his faith by doing good works. He show his faith to God by offering his son Isaac. He actually done something.

The Protestant Doctrine of faith alone is not Biblical and throughout the entire Scripture, that it is not faith alone that saves, it is the sancifying grace of God.

We obviously hit an impass here, so if you will permit me, I would like to ask the question this way.

If the teaching is that salvation is based on Faith and Works, how does the Catholic teaching reconcile Paul’s teaching to salvation not being based on Works. I have posted a few of the verses below.

Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law

Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Gal 3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
Gal 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Did you suffer so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain?
Gal 3:5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Gal 3:7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[AlegreFe]

We obviously hit an impass here, so if you will permit me, I would like to ask the question this way.

If the teaching is that salvation is based on Faith and Works, how does the Catholic teaching reconcile Paul’s teaching to salvation not being based on Works.

They are talking about works of the law… the OT law.

Not only that, we cannot performs good works and take credit for it. Those good works that we do are only possible because of the Grace of God. That is where we cannot “boast” and say we do good works all on our own and pound our chests about it.

Besides, the Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by GRACE alone… Grace through Faith and I show my faith through my works. I’m sure you know James chapter 2 verse 24? So “faith alone” goes out the window.

 

[simbagizmo]

Sorry, you’re wrong… but not completely. There can be people that have no faith at all. Then one day someone can tell them about Jesus. They can either be closed to it or wide open. The only way they can be wide open to the Truth is with God’s Grace. The grace is a gift that God’s gives us. There is no way one can be faithful without the Grace of God. I can be doing something good but I have to give that credit to God because if it wasn’t for His Grace then I wouldn’t have done those “good things.”

Help me break this down to your way of thinking then.

1. Salvation is a free gift offered by God that I only get if I choose to receive that gift.
2. The only way I can receive that gift is to choose to put my Faith in Jesus Christ.
3. Through my Faith in Jesus Christ, I receive the free gift of salvation by Grace.
4. By good Works, I show and perfect my Faith, and gain rewards in heaven.

Are we in agreement with this?

 

[simbagizmo]

They are talking about works of the law… the OT law.

Agreed, and this thread started off by talking about the 10 Commandments necessary for salvation. This is the works of OT Law. Look at the thread title.

Not only that, we cannot performs good works and take credit for it. Those good works that we do are only possible because of the Grace of God. That is where we cannot “boast” and say we do good works all on our own and pound our chests about it.

Agreed. So salvation is not based on works, since as you stated we cannot take credit for it anyway.

Besides, the Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by GRACE alone… Grace through Faith and I show my faith through my works. I’m sure you know James chapter 2 verse 24? So “faith alone” goes out the window.

OK. So the Catholic church says that one is saved by Grace alone. Then I do not understand why the hang up on James 2:24 that states we are saved by works, not Grace.

I would like to bring up Luke 7:50 again since we are talking about Grace instead of works.

Luk 7:50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Jesus says that Faith saved the woman, not Grace.

Does the Catholic church teach that one can receive saving Grace, that is salvation, without putting faith in Jesus Christ?

 

[AlegreFe]

1. Salvation is a free gift offered by God

Yes :yup:

simbagizmo:

that I only get if I choose to receive that gift.

No :nope: It is completely free. When I was baptized, I received Sanctifying Grace. I did NOTHING to receive it. That Sanctifying Grace took away Original Sin.

simbagizmo:

1. The only way I can receive that gift is to choose to put my Faith in Jesus Christ.

In a way :yup: In a way :nope: God gives me the Grace first. In order to keep receiving that grace, I have to “live” it. That is where my Faith comes in.

I don’t know what else to compare it to but I’ll use this saying; “What came first, the Grace or the Faith?” from the “chicken or the egg” saying. Grace comes FIRST because God gave it as a free gift. Without Grace there is no way for me to have Faith. But then with my Faith I can breath that Grace into my body. Of course knowing that I cannot breath without God. So by showing my faith through my works, I can keep receiving more Grace. It’s like a circle… I guess I could call it, The Circle of Life.

simbagizmo:

1. Through my Faith in Jesus Christ, I receive the free gift of salvation by Grace.

Yes :yup:

simbagizmo:

1. By good Works, I show and perfect my Faith, and gain rewards in heaven.

Yes :yup: By good Works, you show and perfect your Faith which will bring you more Grace to gain rewards in heaven.

 

[AlegreFe]

Agreed. So salvation is not based on works, since as you stated we cannot take credit for it anyway.

It’s not based on works alone.

I think this in a way is also a circle. But only because of that first circle I talked about. That first free gift of Grace is free because I did NOTHING to earn it. But then to keep getting Grace I have to show my Faith by my works. But that Grace that I keep getting is still free. Why? because the good works that I do is only because of God’s Grace. I know, you’re getting dizzy right? LOL I hope I’m explaining it in an easy way. :whacky:

simbagizmo:

OK. So the Catholic church says that one is saved by Grace alone. Then I do not understand why the hang up on James 2:24 that states we are saved by works, not Grace.

There’s no hang up here. LOL And besides James 2:24 does not say that. It says we are not saved by faith alone.

simbagizmo:

I would like to bring up Luke 7:50 again since we are talking about Grace instead of works.

Jesus says that Faith saved the woman, not Grace.

I think this is a case of not saying something that was “understood” by God; so it didn’t need to be stated here by Jesus. Jesus did not have to let that woman know that she actually received Grace in order to show her Faith. She received the Grace first by God as a free gift. She received it in order to perform her good works that showed her Faith. So she cooperated with that Grace. I’m getting dizzy. :whacky:

simbagizmo:

Does the Catholic church teach that one can receive saving Grace, that is salvation, without putting faith in Jesus Christ?

Yes and No. In my previous post I stated that Grace comes First but then to keep receiving more Grace we have to do “good works” to show our Faith which in turn will give us more Grace. And of course those “good works” are not possible without the Grace of God. So I give credit to God for “the good works He prepared for me in advance in order that I live in them.” One big circle.

These next verses talk about that Free Grace given to us when we were baptized; that “bath of rebirth.” It states that we are justified by Grace. Then it talks about “good works.”

4 But when the kindness and generous love
of God our savior appeared,
5 not because of any righteous deeds we had
done but because of his mercy,
he saved us through the bath of rebirth
and renewal by the holy Spirit,
6 whom he richly poured out on us
through Jesus Christ our savior,
7 so that we might be justified by his grace
and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
8 This saying is trustworthy.
I want you to insist on these points, that those who
have believed in God be careful to devote
themselves to good works; these are excellent
and beneficial to others. Titus 3:4-8

 

[simbagizmo]

simbagizmo:

1. Salvation is a free gift offered by God

Yes

simbagizmo:

1. The only way I can receive that gift is to choose to put my Faith in Jesus Christ.

No It is completely free. When I was baptized, I received Sanctifying Grace. I did NOTHING to receive it. That Sanctifying Grace took away Original Sin.

simbagizmo:

1. Through my Faith in Jesus Christ, I receive the free gift of salvation by Grace.

Yes

OK, you have confused me with your statments. Please help. You stated that you received the gift of salvation at baptism by Grace, and you did nothing. I assume by this you were baptized as an infant. Then you agreed that you receive the free gift of salvation through Faith.

If you already received the gift at baptism, how can you receive it again when you come to Faith. Or if you receive Grace through Faith, how do you receive it at infant baptism when you yet have faith?

As you have pointed out several time, correctly, that we are saved by Grace through Faith. It is through Faith one receives Grace by which we are saved.

AlegreFe:

By Grace, through Faith shown by my works. It’s all right there.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love
he had for us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us
to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the
heavens in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable
riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 **For by grace **you have been saved through faith,
and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.
10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for
the good works that God has prepared in
advance, that we should live in them. Eph 2:4-10

 

[Rocky]

If one needs first to have faith before one receives God’s grace, then that person has already done a great deal of work before anything else—and that is the work of coming to faith.

Not all people are able to state as confidently as those of us who were baptized as infants that we truly received a free gift of God—the gift of grace to become His child, not through anything we professed, but truly and only through the love of God to make us His own.

I thank God that my parents baptized me as an infant, taught me in childhood, and helped me to “graduate” from drinking the milk of faith and growing into a more mature faith.

 

[AlegreFe]

simbagizmo, I started a new thread on Grace & Justification.

 

[simbagizmo]

If one needs first to have faith before one receives God’s grace, then that person has already done a great deal of work before anything else—and that is the work of coming to faith.

Not all people are able to state as confidently as those of us who were baptized as infants that we truly received a free gift of God—the gift of grace to become His child, not through anything we professed, but truly and only through the love of God to make us His own.

I thank God that my parents baptized me as an infant, taught me in childhood, and helped me to “graduate” from drinking the milk of faith and growing into a more mature faith.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We do not have to argue this point, but I do not know how an infant can believe in his heart and confess with his mouth the Lord Jesus. Jesus lays out many times the believing in Him is essential to receiving the Grace of salvation, your faith has saved, repent for salvation. How does an infant do these things? I understand Grace, we can jump over to the other thread to talk about this more, but we get the Grace through faith. If there is no faith, how do we get the Grace.

Example: If I have get to my toy through the door, and the door does not exist, I cannot get to my toy.

Or more in line what you are saying.

If I am given my toy, and am told that I need to go through the door at a later time to get to my toy that I already have. Why would I have to do that since I already have my toy.

If one is saved by the Grace, and one gets the Grace at infant baptism, what is the purpose of Faith that you need it to get the Grace that you already have?

As Sandy states, this is a big circle

 

[dosdog]

We do not have to argue this point, but I do not know how an infant can believe in his heart and confess with his mouth the Lord Jesus. Jesus lays out many times the believing in Him is essential to receiving the Grace of salvation, your faith has saved, repent for salvation. How does an infant do these things? I understand Grace, we can jump over to the other thread to talk about this more, but we get the Grace through faith. If there is no faith, how do we get the Grace.

Example: If I have get to my toy through the door, and the door does not exist, I cannot get to my toy.

Or more in line what you are saying.

If I am given my toy, and am told that I need to go through the door at a later time to get to my toy that I already have. Why would I have to do that since I already have my toy.

If one is saved by the Grace, and one gets the Grace at infant baptism, what is the purpose of Faith that you need it to get the Grace that you already have?

As Sandy states, this is a big circle

The Baptism of Blood

The baptism of blood (baptismus sanquinis) is the obtaining of the grace of justification by suffering martyrdom for the faith of Christ. The term “washing of blood” (lavacrum sanguinis) is used by Tertullian (De Bapt., xvi) to distinguish this species of regeneration from the “washing of water” (lavacrum aquæ). “We have a second washing”, he says “which is one and the same [with the first], namely the washing of blood.” St. Cyprian (Ep. lxxiii) speaks of “the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood” (sanguinis baptismus). St. Augustine (De Civ. Dei, XIII, vii) says: “When any die for the confession of Christ without having received the washing of regeneration, it avails as much for the remission of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism.” The Church grounds her belief in the efficacy of the baptism of blood on the fact that Christ makes a general statement of the saving power of martyrdom in the tenth chapter of St. Matthew: “Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven” (verse 32); and: “He that shall lose his life for me shall find it” (verse 39). It is pointed out that these texts are so broadly worded as to include even infants, especially the latter text. That the former text also applies to them, has been constantly maintained by the Fathers, who declare that if infants can not confess Christ with the mouth, they can by act.

newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm
Infants are incorporated into Christ, not through an act of their own will, but through an act of the sponsor who represents the Church and assumes responsibility for the spiritual education of the infant. The parents, of course, must consent to the baptism; the Church refuses to baptize anyone against his or her will, or even to baptize an infant unless there is some guarantee that the child will be raised in the faith. The sponsors are representatives of the Church, not representatives of the parents. They witness the incorporation of the infant into the fellowship of Christ.

ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/SACRAMEN.TXT

 

[boppaid]

One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!" But the other thief rebuke him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we received our due reward of our deeds; but this man has not done nothing. And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

This is the passage that makes me question pergatory. If there was such a thing as pergutory, wouldn’t this thief have gone there?

 

[dosdog]

This is the passage that makes me question pergatory. If there was such a thing as pergutory, wouldn’t this thief have gone there?

I. LIMBUS PATRUM
Though it can hardly be claimed, on the evidence of extant literature, that a definite and consistent belief in the limbus patrum of Christian tradition was universal among the Jews, it cannot on the other hand be denied that, more especially in the extra-canonical writings of the second or first centuries B.C., some such belief finds repeated expression; and New Testament references to the subject remove all doubt as to the current Jewish belief in the time of Christ Whatever name may be used in apocryphal Jewish literature to designate the abode of the departed just, the implication generally is

that their condition is one of happiness,
that it is temporary, and
that it is to be replaced by a condition of final and permanent bliss when the Messianic Kingdom is established.
In the New Testament, Christ refers by various names and figures to the place or state which Catholic tradition has agreed to call the limbus patrum. In Matthew 8:11, it is spoken of under the figure of a banquet “with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven” (cf. Luke 8:29; 14:15), and in Matthew 25:10 under the figure of a marriage feast to which the prudent virgins are admitted, while in the parable of Lazarus and Dives it is called “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 16:22) and in Christ’s words to the penitent thief on Calvary the name paradise is used (Luke 23:43). St. Paul teaches (Ephesians 4:9) that before ascending into Heaven Christ “also descended first into the lower parts of the earth,” and St. Peter still more explicitly teaches that “being put to death indeed, in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,” Christ went and “preached to those souls that were in prison, which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noah” (1 Peter 3:18-20).

It is principally on the strength of these Scriptural texts, harmonized with the general doctrine of the Fall and Redemption of mankind, that Catholic tradition has defended the existence of the limbus patrum as a temporary state or place of happiness distinct from Purgatory. As a result of the Fall, Heaven was closed against men. Actual possession of the beatific vision was postponed, even for those already purified from sin, until the Redemption should have been historically completed by Christ’s visible ascendancy into Heaven. Consequently, the just who had lived under the Old Dispensation, and who, either at death or after a course of purgatorial discipline, had attained the perfect holiness required for entrance into glory, were obliged to await the coming of the Incarnate Son of God and the full accomplishment of His visible earthly mission. Meanwhile they were “in prison,” as St. Peter says; but, as Christ’s own words to the penitent thief and in the parable of Lazarus clearly imply, their condition was one of happiness, notwithstanding the postponement of the higher bliss to which they looked forward. And this, substantially, is all that Catholic tradition teaches regarding the limbus patrum.
newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm

Purgatory
newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

 

[boppaid]

I don’t mean this to be insulting in any way, but your response just makes no sense to me. It’s like it goes in circles, but says nothing. (Again, no disrespect intended to you, as you’re just restating something in the Catholic Encyclopedia.) Could you explain it to me in your own words, in simple, easy-to-understand terms? Quite frankly, “dumb it down” for me.

I guess the part that really confuses me is that Jesus says "“Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” he makes no mention of pergatory. He doesn’t even hint to the fact.