For Non-Catholic Christians: Is obeying the Ten Commandments necessary for salvation?

[lak611]

This is the passage that makes me question pergatory. If there was such a thing as pergutory, wouldn’t this thief have gone there?

Not everyone needs to go through purgatory. If the person suffered a lot during his/her lifetime, enough penance was done. This thief had to finish dying on a cross before he went to heaven. Most of us probably would never have that much suffering in our lifetimes.

 

[pumpqeen]

Romans 2: 12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Matthew 5:17
The Fulfillment of the Law - "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Christ came to fulfil the law, so how can those who claim to follow Christ violate the law ?! Living in faith means to confess our sins, acknowledge our insufficiencies, seek to do good always, strive to be holy and seek to do the will of God. Whatever is STILL lacking then, shall be made perfect through the blood of Christ.

NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

 

[dosdog]

Romans 2: 12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Matthew 5:17
The Fulfillment of the Law - "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Christ came to fulfil the law, so how can those who claim to follow Christ violate the law ?! Living in faith means to confess our sins, acknowledge our insufficiencies, seek to do good always, strive to be holy and seek to do the will of God. Whatever is STILL lacking then, shall be made perfect through the blood of Christ.

NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

Law instituted by Christ in which forgiveness of sins committed after baptism is granted through the priest’s absolution to those who with true sorrow confess their sins and promise to satisfy for the same. It is called a “sacrament” not simply a function or ceremony, because it is an outward sign instituted by Christ to impart grace to the soul. As an outward sign it comprises the actions of the penitent in presenting himself to the priest and accusing himself of his sins, and the actions of the priest in pronouncing absolution and imposing satisfaction. This whole procedure is usually called, from one of its parts, “confession”, and it is said to take place in the “tribunal of penance”, because it is a judicial process in which the penitent is at once the accuser, the person accused, and the witness, while the priest pronounces judgment and sentence. The grace conferred is deliverance from the guilt of sin and, in the case of mortal sin, from its eternal punishment; hence also reconciliation with God, justification. Finally, the confession is made not in the secrecy of the penitent’s heart nor to a layman as friend and advocate, nor to a representative of human authority, but to a duly ordained priest with requisite jurisdiction and with the “power of the keys”, i.e., the power to forgive sins which Christ granted to His Church.
The Sacrament of Penance

Reconciliation (Confession & Penance)
God forgives sin Mk 2:7; Lk 5:21
Christ has power to forgive sin Mt 9:6; Mk 2:10; Lk 5:24; Col 3:13
Confession instituted by Christ Jn 20:22-23
Forgiveness is through Christ 2Cor 2:10
Is for reconciliation with Christ 2Cor 5:18
Reconciliation is from Christ Rom 5:11; Col 1:20; Heb 1:3
Power is delegated by Christ Jn 20:23; 2Cor 5:18
Degrees of sin (mortal or venial?) 1Jn 5:16
Penance reconciles the sinner to the community of believers 2 Cor 2:5-8
“If you forgive sins … they are forgiven.” Jn 20:22-23
Binding on earth and heaven. Mt 18:18
Ministry of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:18
Forgiveness of sins, anointing of the sick, confession. Jas 5:14-16
infpage.com/concordance/god3.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

 

[bella5110]

I don’t mean this to be insulting in any way, but your response just makes no sense to me. It’s like it goes in circles, but says nothing. (Again, no disrespect intended to you, as you’re just restating something in the Catholic Encyclopedia.) Could you explain it to me in your own words, in simple, easy-to-understand terms? Quite frankly, “dumb it down” for me.

I guess the part that really confuses me is that Jesus says "“Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” he makes no mention of pergatory. He doesn’t even hint to the fact.

That thief that went with Christ to paradise was told by Christ himself. Therefore because Christ himself told him he’d be in paradise, that is where he is going. No other avenue is necessary since it came from The Messiah himself. Everyone will go to purgatory. We all should be as Blessed as that thief.

 

[simbagizmo]

The Baptism of Blood

The baptism of blood (baptismus sanquinis) is the obtaining of the grace of justification by suffering martyrdom for the faith of Christ. The term “washing of blood” (lavacrum sanguinis) is used by Tertullian (De Bapt., xvi) to distinguish this species of regeneration from the “washing of water” (lavacrum aquæ). “We have a second washing”, he says “which is one and the same [with the first], namely the washing of blood.” St. Cyprian (Ep. lxxiii) speaks of “the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood” (sanguinis baptismus). St. Augustine (De Civ. Dei, XIII, vii) says: “When any die for the confession of Christ without having received the washing of regeneration, it avails as much for the remission of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism.” The Church grounds her belief in the efficacy of the baptism of blood on the fact that Christ makes a general statement of the saving power of martyrdom in the tenth chapter of St. Matthew: “Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven” (verse 32); and: “He that shall lose his life for me shall find it” (verse 39). It is pointed out that these texts are so broadly worded as to include even infants, especially the latter text. That the former text also applies to them, has been constantly maintained by the Fathers, who declare that if infants can not confess Christ with the mouth, they can by act.

I am not sure how blood baptism came from my post about receiving salvation as infant. But as to your post about it, I would just say that you are making this way to complicated and legalistic. A person that is martyred for Jesus Christ, will go to heaven, not because he was martyred, but because he received Salvation through Faith. It really is not much more complicated than that.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm
Infants are incorporated into Christ, not through an act of their own will, but through an act of the sponsor who represents the Church and assumes responsibility for the spiritual education of the infant. The parents, of course, must consent to the baptism; the Church refuses to baptize anyone against his or her will, or even to baptize an infant unless there is some guarantee that the child will be raised in the faith. The sponsors are representatives of the Church, not representatives of the parents. They witness the incorporation of the infant into the fellowship of Christ.

This is fine, but doesn’t answer the questions I posted.

ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/SACRAMEN.TXT

 

[dosdog]

I am not sure how blood baptism came from my post about receiving salvation as infant. But as to your post about it, I would just say that you are making this way to complicated and legalistic. A person that is martyred for Jesus Christ, will go to heaven, not because he was martyred, but because he received Salvation through Faith. It really is not much more complicated than that.

This is fine, but doesn’t answer the questions I posted.

ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/SACRAMEN.TXT

No you are trying to create a logical fallacy Mutes cannot confess with thier mouth using your logic they can never be saved

original sin, its effects on the souls of all people, and the necessity of baptism for its removal. Genesis 3:16-24, Romans 5:12-19, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22, and Galatians 3:27.

Several things happen at baptism. First, the spiritual (though not physical) effects of original sin are removed from the soul. This removal is accompanied by an infusion of sanctifying grace, which makes the soul spiritually alive. The soul receives an indelible character that irrevocably identifies it as a member of the heavenly family.

Also, all punishment due to pre-baptismal actual sins is completely remitted
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/CAMORM2.HTM

We are not saved as individuals, or by our own power, but we are saved inasmuch as we are members of Christ. That means we must be like Him. Hence in Gal 5:13-26 Paul gives two lists: the fruits of the Spirit, and the works of the flesh. If we follow the flesh, we will die. We will not inherit. But we must follow the Spirit. Romans 8:9:“If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.” - that Spirit leads us to do as Christ did, which means to avoid sin. We cannot say: If we have taken
Christ as our Savior we can sin as much as we want. For faith includes obedience - cf. Romans1:5. We cannot say if we have faith we can disobey, for faith includes obedience.

5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

This is really the syn Christo theme of St. Paul: We must suffer with Him, die with Him, be buried with Him, rise with Him, ascend with Him (cf. Romans 8. 17; 6:3-8; Col. 3:1-4; Eph. 2:5-6; Rom 8:13.

We should notice too the fact that there are two stages, sometimes called objective redemption and subjective redemption. The objective redemtion is the work of earning a claim to all forgiveness and grace – we do not contribute to that at all, Christ did it for us. The subjective redemption is the process of giving out that forgiveness and grace thoughout all subsequent ages, even today. It is in that that we need to be like Christ to share in the claim He generated.

Our part in the subjective redemption is had by being like Christ in suffering and other things. God likes this as part of His love of good order. Summa I.19.5.c., paraphrased (literal is very crude) says: God in His love of good order likes to have one thing in place to serve as a reason or title for giving the second thing, even though that thing does not really move Him. Hence, in the objective redemption, He was pleased to use the Blessed Mother (whose ability to do anything came from her Son). In the subjective redemption, He uses her, the Saints, and us.
ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EARNSAL.TXT