For non-Christians who respect Jesus as just a prophet

[Antwill]

I also have no problem believing that he was possibly simply wrong. Not evil, not mad, just wrong. Being wrong in part does not negate the moral teachings—Christianity admits that there are moral teachings in many religions other than itself.

Interesting. You believe that someone can think they are God, yet not be either delusional or intentionally misleading, just mistaken. That’s a new way to look at it to me. The article you linked is not convincing, mainly because the example he used of “Sally” thinking she was born in New York when she was actually born in London is quite weak. Obviously, if one of supposedly sound mind thinks he is God, it is quite different than someone’s mistaken presumption about where they were born based on childhood memories. You would have to come up with a much better analogy for his theory to make sense when it comes to Christ’s claim to be God.

I’m not buying it, but an interesting take.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Hi
Sorry to interrept you.
It is a permanant attribut of GodAllahYHWH to be eternal but Jesus died as per Christians for three days and three nights, that would be bad for God to die even for a moment as that would have caused a hole in eternity of God, an irreparable damage. This would be impossible, and proves that Jesus was Son of Man/Woman only.
In fact, in my opinion, Jesus did not die on Cross, God helped him save his life and did not forsook him. Jesus later died in India according to one tradition at the very ripe age of 120 years, a respectful, natural and human death.
Thanks

You are not interrupting, you’re welcome to join in. Apparently, you have a grave misunderstanding of the death of Jesus. We believe that we are created in the image and likeness of God. That is to say, He gave us souls that do not die. Unlike Him, we are created, but nonetheless, our souls do live on even after we die a physical death. Thus, we need a place to go after dying, either heaven or hell. Jesus was no different than us in this respect. His Body died a physical death, His Spirit or Soul did not perish, but descended to preach to the spirits in prison (those souls in the Bosom of Abraham). So, Christians do not believe, and never have, that the the Divinity in Jesus died. If you have been taught that, you have been taught falsely about Christian belief. God exists everywhere simultaneously, He existed in heaven while Jesus was walking around on earth. Not as two separate gods, but as One God. He exists in my part of the world at the same time as He exists in your part of the world. Jesus’ death would have no impact on the existence of God so there would be no “hole in eternity” as you assert.

God our Father did not forsake Jesus. The quote that we hear Jesus say from the cross “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me” is from Psalm 22. Jews would have known immediately what He was talking about. It is about an innocent person being persecuted but in the end the person still praises God "I will tell of thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee: ". Furthermore, it would be impossible for God to forsake Jesus as they are One.

I have heard about the myth that Jesus died in India. Is this in the quran? I find it completely unbelievable that if, according to this story, He was not crucified and He just ran away, that He would ever, ever, ever, let His disciples glorify Him as God when He supposedly wasn’t. If Jesus were a mere prophet that high tailed it to India to avoid persecution, then He would be unworthy of any recognition or praise. Not only would He have failed to proclaim the Kingdom of God, but He would have allowed the “false” religion of Christianity to exist??! It doesn’t fit. A worthy prophet of God would not do that.

 

[paarsurrey]

So, Christians do not believe, and never have, that the the Divinity in Jesus died. If you have been taught that, you have been taught falsely about Christian belief. God exists everywhere simultaneously, He existed in heaven while Jesus was walking around on earth. Not as two separate gods, but as One God. He exists in my part of the world at the same time as He exists in your part of the world. Jesus’ death would have no impact on the existence of God so there would be no “hole in eternity” as you assert.

Hi
Please prove the above from OTBible or from plain words of mouth
of Jesus left by him written by him or authenticated by him before he departed from Galilee alogwith his mother Mary in search of lost ten tribes of the house of Israel scattered and settled in the East. Jesus joined them and they accepted him as the people of Nineveh accepted Jonah after his episode of the whale. So Jesus’ Sign of Jonah was fullfilled like this in a marvellous way ,not the way, in my opinion, Catholics hold as a misception for centuries.
Thanks

The problem here with some of my Christian friends is that they don’t let God speak for Himself. If they would have done it they would find a straight passage from the OTBible on every important issue, if Bible is a living book that answers every rational/reasonable/logical questions, of course we are not discussing here pure Mathematics or Physics, and we are mostly concerned with the every day moral, Spiritual and religious issues, and a religious worthwhile book must resolve such issues, if it is truthful to its purpose. When they don’t get support from the Bible, they think they are wiser than God, so they try filling the void by putting words into God’s mouth first for the Claim and then for the Reason which is usually not found there. One is hence left wondering if the Christian God is living and All-Wise.

 

[Mjae]

I don’t understand the significance of the ‘sign of Jonah’ that you refer to. To me the three days Jonah spent in the belly of the whale is a foreshadowing of the three days Jesus spent when he descended to the dead, before he was resurrected on the third day.

 

[famdigy]

to those of you who feel Christ was a great prophet, man, etc., but was not God - how can you believe this when He *claimed *to be God?

Hi Antwill,
I was under the impression Jesus never claimed to be God, rather it was other people who ascribed divinity to him. But then again i’m not a bible expert. Can you provide a passage from the NT where Jesus in the first person claims to be God?

 

[BelFarfalla]

Hi Antwill,
I was under the impression Jesus never claimed to be God, rather it was other people who ascribed divinity to him. But then again i’m not a bible expert. Can you provide a passage from the NT where Jesus in the first person claims to be God?

That’s like saying that there is no proof that Muhammad was a prophet because he never said it. Rather it was other people who ascribed prophet hood to him when they wrote the Qur’an.

 

[famdigy]

That’s like saying that there is no proof that Muhammad was a prophet because he never said it. Rather it was other people who ascribed prophet hood to him when they wrote the Qur’an.

There are a few differences to note when comparing Jesus in the bible to Muhammad (pbuh&hf) in the Quran

In the Quran God speaks about the prophet Muhammad only in the 2nd and 3rd person masculine pronouns. This is how the Quran flows, and you will find Muhammad is referred to as a prophet in the 2nd and 3rd person masculine pronouns.

In the Bible Jesus sometimes speaks in the first person narrative, if he speaks in the first person about himself, things he did or words he imparted, then why didn’t he claim to be God.

 

[Antwill]

Hi Antwill,
I was under the impression Jesus never claimed to be God, rather it was other people who ascribed divinity to him. But then again i’m not a bible expert. Can you provide a passage from the NT where Jesus in the first person claims to be God?

There are several, but one of the most direct is John 8:58: Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM.

I AM is the name God gave Himself when talking to Moses. So when Christ said this, they knew exactly what He was saying.

 

[hamba2han]

There are several, but one of the most direct is John 8:58: Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM.

I AM is the name God gave Himself when talking to Moses. So when Christ said this, they knew exactly what He was saying.

Why are there only “several” references to Jesus (pbuh) being God in the Bible?

It seems to me that this belief that Jesus is God is so mind-numbing and monumental that the whole Bible should contain very many references to this doctrine and should place enormous emphasis on it.

Instead, there are apparently only “several” references found in the Bible alluding to this doctrine that Jesus is God… Why is this?

Why is there no mention at all of the word ‘Trinity’ in the Bible?

Does not the Bible teach that God is not the author of confusion?

 

[water]

Why are there only “several” references to Jesus (pbuh) being God in the Bible?

So, now at least you are agreed with us that Jesus being God and that is mentioned several times in the Bible. Couple of posts before, you didn’t even acknowledge that.

Good step you have taken.

It seems to me that this belief that Jesus is God is so mind-numbing and monumental that the whole Bible should contain very many references to this doctrine and should place enormous emphasis on it.

Christians believe that Jesus is God is not just because He says He is God but also of what He does. Many times, we all know well that talking without doing is not enough. Jesus is what He does, and through His actions, He proves to us He is God. So, a few words is enough.

Why is there no mention at all of the word ‘Trinity’ in the Bible?

God gives you a brain and the Holy Spirit helps you understand about the Trinity. It is also our Faith that we trust in His teachings and guidance.

Does not the Bible teach that God is not the author of confusion?

yes, God is not the author of confusion. Why are some people confused? It is their sins and pride; it is their ignorance that they can’t see and receive all Graces that God wants them to receive.

 

[Publisher]

Please don’t take this as an attack, as that is not how it is intended, but your belief is yet another example of relativism. It appears to me from your statements that you don’t feel that there is a way to know the TRUTH, as everything is tainted by man’s own agenda in one degree or another.

I would guess that you would probably view people such as myself as naive in thinking that there is one revealed truth, and that it was revealed by Christ to the apostles who established the Catholic Church. I suppose that may be a fair assessment, but I would just call it grace.

No, not naive at all…you are following your measure of the Light Within. I do believe in absolute Truth, Eternal Truth, but we are finite and any and all of our finite understanding of the Eternal…well…is finite and limited.

If that makes me a product of “relativism”…I will accept that.

I too believe in grace…that the Eternal Light…the Presence…seeks to make Their Self known…for me I understand God best as revealed by Jesus of Nazareth. That is the measure of the Light Within for me…it is a lifelong seach for understanding and meaning…

Thomas Kelly wrote…“Deep within us all there is an amazing inner sanctuary of the soul, a holy place, a Divine Center, a speaking Voice, to which we may continuously return. Eternity is at our hearts, pressing upon our time-torn lives, warming us with intimations of an astounding destiny, callins us home unto Itself. Yielding to these perusasions, gladly commiting ourselves in body and soul, untterly and completely, to the Light Within, is the beginnning of true life…It is a Light Within, which illumines the face of God and casts new shadows and new glories upon the face of men. It is a seed stirring to life if we do not choke it. It is the Shekinah of the soul, the Presence in the midst. Here is the Slumbering Christ, stirring to be awakened, to become the sould we clothe in earthly form and action. And He is within us all.”

This is the essence of what it is to be a Friend.

 

[Antwill]

Why are there only “several” references to Jesus (pbuh) being God in the Bible?

It seems to me that this belief that Jesus is God is so mind-numbing and monumental that the whole Bible should contain very many references to this doctrine and should place enormous emphasis on it.

Instead, there are apparently only “several” references found in the Bible alluding to this doctrine that Jesus is God… Why is this?

Why is there no mention at all of the word ‘Trinity’ in the Bible?

Does not the Bible teach that God is not the author of confusion?

I would agree with what Water has posted.

In regard to the Bible putting more emphasis on Chrsit divinity: What do you want, a book that repeats over and over Jesus is God, Jesus said He is God, God said Jesus is God, etc.? Since you do not believe in the divine origion of scripture, I’m sure that would not satisfy you, either, just like anything that is written in the quran doesn’t hold any weight for me.

As for God not being the author of confusion: I know that there are those Muslims who would say that the quran gives them the directive to do things such as the 9/11 attacks, wage “jihad” on all non-Muslims because they won’t subscribe to Muslim beliefs, etc. There are others that would argue that the quran does no such thing (I hope you are in the latter). It seems to me there is much confusion on your side, as well.

This confusion is precisely why Christ establish the Catholic Church on the “rock” Peter. Catholics have one ultimate authority to lead us to all TRUTH. That’s not true of Muslims, correct?

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Hi
Please prove the above from OTBible or from plain words of mouth
of Jesus left by him written by him or authenticated by him before he departed from Galilee alogwith his mother Mary in search of lost ten tribes of the house of Israel scattered and settled in the East. Jesus joined them and they accepted him as the people of Nineveh accepted Jonah after his episode of the whale. So Jesus’ Sign of Jonah was fullfilled like this in a marvellous way ,not the way, in my opinion, Catholics hold as a misception for centuries.
Thanks

The problem here with some of my Christian friends is that they don’t let God speak for Himself. If they would have done it they would find a straight passage from the OTBible on every important issue, if Bible is a living book that answers every rational/reasonable/logical questions, of course we are not discussing here pure Mathematics or Physics, and we are mostly concerned with the every day moral, Spiritual and religious issues, and a religious worthwhile book must resolve such issues, if it is truthful to its purpose. When they don’t get support from the Bible, they think they are wiser than God, so they try filling the void by putting words into God’s mouth first for the Claim and then for the Reason which is usually not found there. One is hence left wondering if the Christian God is living and All-Wise.

First of all, you could do me the courtesy of acknowledging what I said, either in agreement or disagreement, before we move on to another subject.

Secondly, we must have a language barrier here because I’m not sure what your asking. I can tell you that you seem to expect God to communicate with you on your terms rather than His. The OT contains a vast variety of ways God reveals Himself. Some of it is direct and to the point- the Ten Commandments, for example. Some of it is in poetry, like the psalms. Some of it is in the form of a story to convey a particular truth about God. He revealed Himself slowly to His people in all sorts of ways. So, that being said, what exactly is your question? Jonah is a “type” of Christ. His being in the fish for 3 days signifies Jesus’ time in the Abode of the dead. In fact, there are many more foreshadowings of Jesus by Jonah, including: preaching repentence, God’s forgiveness, and a message of obedience and second chances. Jonah spent three days in the fish and then he was released to save Nineveh. Jesus was resurrected after after three days (in the abode of the dead) and then was able to save mankind. That is the sign of Jonah of which He spoke.

The problem here is that you seem to expect God to communicate to us like we are in kindergarten. With the Bible, there is layer, upon layer, upon layer of meaning. God is unfathomable, not simple. Literalism is simply not going to do you any good when reading the Bible. All of the Bible is true, but not all of the Bible is literalistically worded, meaning that some things, like Jesus’ parables, are stories to convey a truth.

 

[Publisher]

=… With the Bible, there is layer, upon layer, upon layer of meaning. God is unfathomable, not simple. Literalism is simply not going to do you any good when reading the Bible. All of the Bible is true, but not all of the Bible is literalistically worded, meaning that some things, like Jesus’ parables, are stories to convey a truth.

Yes indeed! “This friend speaks my mind.”

 

[Jerusha]

Excellent discussion.

I find those who see Jesus as not (also) having a human nature as being more of a problem, because it follows from that, that we do not have the right to follow His example.

And a lot of the other argument is more a matter of semantics, since we can all have the Father working in us and through us (although not to the extent that Jesus demonstrated).

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Why are there only “several” references to Jesus (pbuh) being God in the Bible?

It seems to me that this belief that Jesus is God is so mind-numbing and monumental that the whole Bible should contain very many references to this doctrine and should place enormous emphasis on it.

Instead, there are apparently only “several” references found in the Bible alluding to this doctrine that Jesus is God… Why is this?

Why is there no mention at all of the word ‘Trinity’ in the Bible?

Does not the Bible teach that God is not the author of confusion?

Yes, you touch on something important here. Here is your answer: the Bible does contain references to Christ’s divinity…hundreds of them! Isaiah 9:6 even says " For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” It is right there!! But people who do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God will believe anything else, even if it doesn’t make sense. For example, Jews believe this verse refers to Hezekiah, I believe. And yet the very next verse talks about that person ruling from the throne of David forever and ever (eternity). That description does not fit Hezekiah, it is about the Messiah. Over and over, the Bible talks about a “son”, yet those who have been told by other sources that God has no Son refuse to see it.

God wants you to believe in Jesus FIRST. All you need is faith the size of a mustard seed. He will take care of the rest. But until you have accept His gift of faith, a gift He freely gives, you will never see the Divinity of Christ in those pages.

Trinity is a word Christians made to try to describe the persons of God. The Bible uses other references to refer to these persons—God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. In some parts of the Bible, God appeared in all three forms simultaneously. At Jesus baptism, He comes out of the water and the Spirit descends like a dove and the Father’s voice is heard “This is my Son with Whom I’m well pleased”. But in the Old Testament the references are much more muted, though references are there (the three “men” with Abraham). I believe that this is because God, in first revealing Himself to His people, wanted to emphasize His Oneness. It was only centuries later, through His mission on earth, that Jesus revealed that man’s concept of the oneness of God was incomplete. God is multi-dimensional, yet He remains One-- 1X1X1= 1. Or, to put in another way, Jesus is the imprint of God’s the Father’s very being. That imprint is still God, how could it not be?

 

[Antwill]

As for the Trinity: to paraphrase St. Augustine - if we are able to understand everything about God, He ceases being God. (hope I didn’t butcher that too bad)

 

[Jerusha]

Hamba2han, in my belief, the Trinity is God, Jesus by Himself is not God. You take any part of the Trinity and ignore the other one or two, and all you have is a line or an angle, incomplete.

You are apparently reacting against

those who see Jesus as not (also) having a human nature

, and justifiably so.

 

[hamba2han]

This confusion is precisely why Christ establish the Catholic Church on the “rock” Peter. Catholics have one ultimate authority to lead us to all TRUTH. That’s not true of Muslims, correct?

Apart from the Qur’an, Muslims also follow the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) of which the Hadiths are an integral part of.

The Hadiths are a very important source of guidance for Muslims and there is in fact a Science of Hadith specifically meant to authenticate the many hadiths that exists and to classify them according to the authenticity and reliability of the sources.

Hadiths would generally fall into four broad categories i.e. strong, good, weak and fabricated.

The text of the Bible when placed in comparison with the Hadiths would be classified as either weak or fabricated according to this Science of Hadith.

 

[Antwill]

Apart from the Qur’an, Muslims also follow the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) of which the hadiths are an integral part of.

The hadiths are a very important source of guidance for Muslims and there is in fact a Science of Hadith specifically meant to authenticate the many hadiths that exists and to classify them according to the authenticity and reliability of the sources.

Hadiths would generally fall into four broad categories i.e. strong, good, weak and fabricated.

The text of the Bible when placed in comparison with the hadiths would be classified as either weak or fabricated according to this Science of Hadith.

Yes, but it would appear you still have the same issue of authority. All these other sources you refer to also have to be interpreted by an authoritative head. The is no one head of the Muslim faith like what the Catholic Church has in the Pope, is there?