For or Against Live Action??

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I think what they have done has shown guts and passion…they are standing up for the unborn and doing what they feel they need to do to expose Planned Parenthood. In a perfect world, they wouldn’t have needed to “go undercover” but we all know…it’s not a perfect world. In a literal sense…it’s in many ways a clash between good and evil and we’re all part of the struggle. If the actions of Live Action causes even one woman to rethink having an abortion…they have saved an innocent life and have done an incredible service to us all.
 
surf(name removed by moderator)ure said:
What about Christians harboring Jews in Nazi Germany? Was it okay for them to lie?

What about doctors in clinical research studies, telling people they’ve received a drug when it was really a placebo?

What about police doing a sting operation?

As a matter of fact, I think that last one just about nails it. Citizens do sometimes have to step in to save a life when police cannot or will not. In this case, they’ve broken no civil laws, and they’ve taken action in a desperate cause to save literally MILLIONS of lives. Planned Parenthood’s death toll is truly a holocaust, and I believe a ruse is permissible in such extreme circumstances.
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From my perspective, I just don’t think they were representing Christ. I can’t picture Christ misleading people into thinking he’s a pimp in order to trick them into revealing their wicked nature. That just doesn’t pan out in my mind. On the other hand, I CAN picture Christ harboring Jews who are being persecuted. As far as your example of doctors and police officers, those are secular people/institutions. Live Action is a Christian organization that, in my opinion, is acting in a pretty un-Christlike manner. Is sin OK when it reveals the sin of others? Or is all sin pretty much bad?

I think the fact that PP has faced negative consequences from the LA investigation is good…but at what cost?

Peace and blessings,
Julie
 
Juliebug108 said:
From my perspective, I just don’t think they were representing Christ. I can’t picture Christ misleading people into thinking he’s a pimp in order to trick them into revealing their wicked nature. That just doesn’t pan out in my mind. On the other hand, I CAN picture Christ harboring Jews who are being persecuted. As far as your example of doctors and police officers, those are secular people/institutions. Live Action is a Christian organization that, in my opinion, is acting in a pretty un-Christlike manner. Is sin OK when it reveals the sin of others? Or is all sin pretty much bad?

I think the fact that PP has faced negative consequences from the LA investigation is good…but at what cost?

Peace and blessings,
Julie
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There are lots of things I have trouble picturing Jesus doing - such as carrying a weapon while going to war to free an oppressed people, or stepping in in the middle of an armed robbery to use force. But that doesn’t make those things unjust. We are truly facing a great evil, and if there is something - including a sting operation - that an organization can legally do in this battle for lives, they ought to do it.

Why should it be acceptable for secular organizations to expose evil by using deception, but not Christian ones? If deception is always wrong, then it’s wrong for everyone. If it is sometimes permissible, then we simply disagree about the circumstances. I believe this falls into the category of “just” deception. Clearly this is where we disagree.
 
dje101 said:
Many people have said that LA is doing what the proper officials SHOULD HAVE been doing yet failed to do.

Not completely. This skit done by LA had provoked Congress to consider de-funding PP. It seems that they may have succeeded.

I’m not saying your wrong, I respect your opinion. 😃 I’m just pointing out what I’ve heard others say.
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thanks, dje…no offense taken.

I just do not find it Christian like to justify one’s breaking the law for another wrong. It compounds the wrong, isn’t it. Being the followers of Christ, we should all follow his example, IMHO, and asked if He would have done the same thing.

On another note, not to derail this thread, how are you doing in your study and investigation of the CC? I hope you have learned a lot and have found replies to your posts helpful.
 
pablope said:
thanks, dje…no offense taken.

I just do not find it Christian like to justify one’s breaking the law for another wrong. It compounds the wrong, isn’t it. Being the followers of Christ, we should all follow his example, IMHO, and asked if He would have done the same thing.

On another note, not to derail this thread, how are you doing in your study and investigation of the CC? I hope you have learned a lot and have found replies to your posts helpful.
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I’m leaving it up to the Church whether or not the actions taken by LA are approved or not, although I do enjoy the results. However, I don’t believe they break any laws - both because I don’t know of any it would fall under, and more importantly, every pro-choice politician would be issuing warrants for their arrest every chance they could!
 
Mumbles140 said:
I’m leaving it up to the Church whether or not the actions taken by LA are approved or not, although I do enjoy the results. However, I don’t believe they break any laws - both because I don’t know of any it would fall under, and more importantly, every pro-choice politician would be issuing warrants for their arrest every chance they could!
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I agree with you, although I’m guessing pablope was referring to *moral *law. If that’s the case, then whether LA does or does not break the moral law depends on whether theirs is a just cause for deception (since there’s a good argument to be made that such causes do exist).

Correct me if I’m wrong, anyone, but I believe this is where we seem to divide: some believe it’s just cause, some believe it isn’t.

Thoughts? 🙂

mary
 
Being a noncatholic and not being all that familiar with how the Church works (as in, the higher ups), I must ask: Would the Vatican actually take a public and official stance against a particular group?
 
dje101 said:
Being a noncatholic and not being all that familiar with how the Church works (as in, the higher ups), I must ask: Would the Vatican actually take a public and official stance against a particular group?
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No. It would be in terms of the moral question in general.
 
SteveVH said:
No. It would be in terms of the moral question in general.
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so, instead of saying “we are opposed to Live Action and their methods of business”, they’d simply say “it is wrong to use deceitful ways to bring about good, no matter what the situation”?

They wouldn’t necessarily oppose the group, just the fact that they use deception to bring about a “great good”.
 
SteveVH said:
No. It would be in terms of the moral question in general.
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Agreed. If it was something presented directly to them, they would likely make a statement concerning whether it is just to obtain criminal information under false pretenses, possibly recognizing the authority of the state to do the same for the betterment of society, and how this can be seen as a moral act in a just war. I don’t really know for certain, though, and I would be shocked if there was something that came from that high up the ladder. Maybe there is some quote by a local Bishop or Cardinal concerning LA…
 
dje101 said:
so, instead of saying “we are opposed to Live Action and their methods of business”, they’d simply say “it is wrong to use deceitful ways to bring about good, no matter what the situation”?

They wouldn’t necessarily oppose the group, just the fact that they use deception to bring about a “great good”.
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If they thought the group was truly acting outside the teachings of the Church while claiming to be Catholic, they might be used as an example, but it wouldn’t be a ‘thumbs up or thumbs down’ kind of thing with that specific group - it would likely address the issue in general.
 
surf(name removed by moderator)ure said:
What about Christians harboring Jews in Nazi Germany? Was it okay for them to lie?

What about doctors in clinical research studies, telling people they’ve received a drug when it was really a placebo?

What about police doing a sting operation?

As a matter of fact, I think that last one just about nails it. Citizens do sometimes have to step in to save a life when police cannot or will not. In this case, they’ve broken no civil laws, and they’ve taken action in a desperate cause to save literally MILLIONS of lives. Planned Parenthood’s death toll is truly a holocaust, and I believe a ruse is permissible in such extreme circumstances.
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It wasn’t okay for Christians harboring Jews in Nazi Germany to lie. I remember someone saying that they can say something like, “If I had Jews, you would kill me,” and hope the Nazi will misinterpret. After all, saying that you would get killed if you harbored Jews is the truth. As Christians, we have to be like Christ. Would Christ have lied?
 
Inquiringperson said:
It wasn’t okay for Christians harboring Jews in Nazi Germany to lie. I remember someone saying that they can say something like, “If I had Jews, you would kill me,” and hope the Nazi will misinterpret. After all, saying that you would get killed if you harbored Jews is the truth. As Christians, we have to be like Christ. Would Christ have lied?
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Are you at all familiar with Just War Doctrine? A ruse or deception is permissible in war. The WWJD argument is a red herring.
 
Inquiringperson said:
I am familiar with the Just War Doctrine, and no where does it say that ruses or deceptions are permissible in war unless this website I was reading didn’t say everything or perhaps I missed something. Here’s the website.

catholic.com/library/JustWarxx1.pdf
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I’m sorry. I didn’t make my connection clear:

There are times when war is morally accpetable (Just War Doctrine). A deception is an acceptable wartime measure (see Geneva Convention). Therefore, there are times when a deception is morally acceptable.

Better?
 
surf(name removed by moderator)ure said:
I’m sorry. I didn’t make my connection clear:

There are times when war is morally accpetable (Just War Doctrine). A deception is an acceptable wartime measure (see Geneva Convention). Therefore, there are times when a deception is morally acceptable.

Better?
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Yeah. But doesn’t the deception violate the Principle of the Double Effect as lying is inherently evil? Please give me reference that lying isn’t inherently evil, and I’ll stand corrected.
 
Inquiringperson said:
Yeah. But doesn’t the deception violate the Principle of the Double Effect as lying is inherently evil? Please give me reference that lying isn’t inherently evil, and I’ll stand corrected.
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Is killing inherently evil? If so, then the Church is wrong in permitting war under any circumstance. Or, do we go back to the original wording of the commandment: “Thou shalt not murder?” Because if we do that, we also have to concede “Thou shalt not bear false witness.”

A certain Gideon of the OT comes to mind. If what he did isn’t deception in war, I don’t know what is. And then there’s Rahab the harlot, who lied while harboring spies, yet was considered righteous and is also in the lineage of Christ.
 
surf(name removed by moderator)ure said:
Is killing inherently evil? If so, then the Church is wrong in permitting war under any circumstance. Or, do we go back to the original wording of the commandment: “Thou shalt not murder?” Because if we do that, we also have to concede “Thou shalt not bear false witness.”

A certain Gideon of the OT comes to mind. If what he did isn’t deception in war, I don’t know what is. And then there’s Rahab the harlot, who lied while harboring spies, yet was considered righteous and is also in the lineage of Christ.
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Murder is inherently evil. There’s a difference between murdering and killing.
 
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