For our non-catholic followers: A what and if Question

  • Thread starter Thread starter PJM
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Traverse said:
What does an understanding of grace have to do with the sacraments of the catholic church, many of which are never actually specified by Christ Himself?
Click to expand...
PLEASE read post 19 and 20 and you’ll have your answer:)

God Bless you!
patrick
 
=benjohnson;11382138]The Lutheran definition of Sacrement is simply a bit more strict than the Catholic definition.
Click to expand...
From the Apology of the Augsburg Confession - bolded for emphasis.
Click to expand...
If we define the sacraments as rites, which have the command of God and to which the promise of grace has been added, it is easy to determine what the sacraments are, properly speaking.
Click to expand...
For humanly instituted rites are not sacraments, properly speaking, because human beings do not have the authority to promise grace. Therefore signs instituted without the command of God are not sure signs of grace, even though they perhaps serve to teach or admonish the common folk.
Click to expand...
THANKS Ben:thumbsup:

Please read post #8 and mine reply on post 20 and you’ll fid evidence that the ARE God’s sacraments:thumbsup:
 
SteveVH said:
Well, my only answer …]
Click to expand...
Franky, I think this is one of those cases that our definitions of “sacrament” is where the difference lies - not that we have fundamental differences on the meaning and holiness of the vocation of Marriage that will hopefully draw us closer to God.
 
benjohnson said:
yes… but…

No Lutheran should really get upset that the Catholics give marriage the status of a Sacrament. But Lutherans would point out that the participants of the marriage have the same amount of grace before and after they go through the ceremony. *

So… With a Lutheran understanding - marriage is commended by God to us, but it’s not a means of grace, therefore it’s a good and holy rite but not a sacrament.

Lutherans understand our definitions to include the Sacraments of Baptism, Holy Communion and Confession/Absolution.
  • The marriage ceremony is an appendix to a Devine Service where we would have Holy Communion, but the marriage ceremony itself is what we’re referring to.
Click to expand...
Hmmm…:confused:

30 - Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 - For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh.

32 - This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church.
 
For Lutherans, the number of sacraments is adiaphora. Augsburg suggests ordination & anointing could also be sacraments. I think Anglicans refer to them as sacramentals.
 
benjohnson said:
Perhaps He does!

But we haven’t been given clear assurances that this happens, so we don’t say that it does.

**Like I said too, a married couple does leave with more Grace because the vows are exchanged in the context of a Divine Service with Holy Communion. **
Lutherans would also caution the Bride and Groom that making vows before God is a dangerous thing!
When you make a vow to God, do not delay to pay it;
For He has no pleasure in fools.
Pay what you have vowed—
Better not to vow than to vow and not pay.
*
Click to expand...
Hey Ben, don’t forget that LCMS parishes avoid a nuptial Eucharist because of Close Communion.

At my Dad’s funeral Mass the pastor [LCMS] included a reminder in the bulletin and several of my Catholic relatives were saddened that they could not take holy Communion with the family. 😦
 
SteveVH said:
Really? How do arrive at such a conclusion? You state this as if it is just a fact? Do you not believe that God pours out additional grace upon those who enter into this holy state which is a foreshadowing of our relationship with Christ? I am really surprised by this statement.
Click to expand...
Define “grace” and you’ll see it’s being used in profoundly different ways. Catholic usage of the term is essentially that grace is the commodity of salvation - that grace comes in “units” that are given to a person to collect. And receiving salvation piecemeal is nowhere found in Scripture.
 
concretecamper said:
Hmmm…:confused:

30 - Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 - For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh.

32 - This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church.
Click to expand...
The only translation that says “sacrament” is the Douay-Rheims…

biblehub.com/ephesians/5-32.htm
 
=benjohnson;11388695]Yow… good find.
Click to expand...
“μυστήριον” is definitely not “sacrament” - it’s “mystery.”
Click to expand...
Well that’s almost the entire truth. It’s also in the Vulgate from which the Douay get’s its teachings. And BOTH the Vulgate and the Douay were written before the King James and the other bibles.

The Latin Vulgate (VUL) 32 sacramentum hoc magnum est ego autem dico in Christo et in ecclesia Douay-Rheims (RHE) 32 This is a great sacrament: but I speak in Christ and in the church"

As to its meaning:

I would point out the following terms are ALSO not in the bible:D
“Bible” Protestant; Catholic; theology, as examples of the lack of revelance to todays understandings:

Further Mt. 10:1-8; Mt. 16:18-19; Jn.17:14-20; Mk.16:14-15 & Mt. 28:16-20 ALL precisely, specifically and exclusively TEACH that Christ choose, guides and protects ONLY His Catholic Church with His Singular truths.👍

God Bless you!
 
We accept all 7 sacraments - 2 were instituted by Christ (Baptism & the Eucharist)

we also accept Orders-Penance-Anointing-Marriage and Confirmation -though not istituted by Christ as being of merit

:cool:
 
From the Greek:

τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο μέγα ἐστίν, ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω εἰς Χριστὸν καὶ εἰς τὴν ἐκκλησίαν.
 
Arabic

32 هَذا السِّرُّ عَظِيمٌ! وَأنا أقُولُ إنَّ هَذا يَنطَبِقُ عَلَى المَسِيحِ وَالكَنِيسَةِ. 33 فَلْيُحِبَّ كُلُّ واحِدٍ مِنكُمْ زَوجَتَهُ كَما يُحِبُّ نَفسَهُ. وَلْتُعامِلِ الزَّوجَةُ زَوجَها باحتِرامٍ شَدِيدٍ.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Hey Ben, don’t forget that LCMS parishes avoid a nuptial Eucharist because of Close Communion.
Click to expand...
I don’t know where you got this information. From the Lutheran Service Book (LCMS Hymnal):
Holy Matrimony
This rite is designed for use at the beginning of the Divine Service.
Click to expand...
Lutheran marriages typically take place with a full Mass.
EvangelCatholic said:
At my Dad’s funeral Mass the pastor [LCMS] included a reminder in the bulletin and several of my Catholic relatives were saddened that they could not take holy Communion with the family. 😦
Click to expand...
I am sorry you and your family members were saddened by the separation between Rome and Wittenberg. As difficult as it is in the moment, these can be teachable moments. Lovingly explaining to your Roman Catholic family members that their own communion does not permit them to partake in a Lutheran Lord’s Supper (even if invited), strengthens them in their own faith.
 
PJM said:
Well that’s almost the entire truth. It’s also in the Vulgate from which the Douay get’s its teachings. And BOTH the Vulgate and the Douay were written before the King James and the other bibles.
Click to expand...
Don’t get me wrong, the Vulgate is a great translation of the Greek and is easier to read. But the original Greek was written first and should be deferred too unless there’s a really good reason.

That said, Lutherans have no problem with saying marriage is sacramental or holy - God is the most important partner in marriage between man and wife. It’s just that our definition of “Sacrement” is much more strict and requires a promise of grace from God.

Frankly, our labels for the marriage probably something we should understand about each other and not really argue too much about as - if we can stand side by side and proclaim the sanity of marriage to this fallen world we’ll all be better off.
 
concretecamper said:
Arabic

32 هَذا السِّرُّ عَظِيمٌ! وَأنا أقُولُ إنَّ هَذا يَنطَبِقُ عَلَى المَسِيحِ وَالكَنِيسَةِ. 33 فَلْيُحِبَّ كُلُّ واحِدٍ مِنكُمْ زَوجَتَهُ كَما يُحِبُّ نَفسَهُ. وَلْتُعامِلِ الزَّوجَةُ زَوجَها باحتِرامٍ شَدِيدٍ.
Click to expand...
The reason the Greek trumps all (generally) is that it’s the original. Arabic would be a far distant source.

For even this translation in Arabic is further from the Greek - هَذا السِّرُّ عَظِيمٌ means “This is a great Mystery!”
 
benjohnson said:
The reason the Greek trumps all (generally) is that it’s the original. Arabic would be a far distant source.

For even this translation in Arabic is further from the Greek - هَذا السِّرُّ عَظِيمٌ means “This is a great Mystery!”
Click to expand...
You did not take my Arabic post seriously…because I have no idea what those characters mean;)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top