For our Protestant brethren--Mary worship

[Della]

There is/was a very long thread that started with someone quoting a Catholic who stated that Catholics worship Mary. I didn’t read the whole thread–way too long! So, maybe someone brought this up, but if not, it needs to be said for the sake of clarity.

If a Catholic says we worship Mary they are using an older meaning that used to define it as, in this context, simple veneration not the adoration due to God alone.

What we mean by worship these days is the adoration of God, which is what it means to most people, although the dictionary gives more than one definition, including veneration, which is not the same thing in Catholic theology.

When we offer worship we are offer sacrifice to God. We offer God the sacrifice of our prayers and praise, of course, but for us it goes beyond that to the offering of the Sacrament of the Altar, the Eucharist. For us, no true worship is complete without it. It’s why we join all our prayers and praises to the Sacrifice of the Altar, as we put it.

So, Mary is not the object of worship for us. We offer her veneration of the highest order (or hyperdulia), and ask for her intercession (as a part of the Communion of Saints), but not worship in the sense our Protestant brethren mean–or we mean these days, either.

Ergo, Catholics do not worship Mary–not in the modern sense of the word.

Sorry for the long post, but such important things can’t be explained in one sentence–I apologize for not being more concise, but that’s as concise as I can be.

 

[JonNC]

There is/was a very long thread that started with someone quoting a Catholic who stated that Catholics worship Mary. I didn’t read the whole thread–way too long! So, maybe someone brought this up, but if not, it needs to be said for the sake of clarity.

If a Catholic says we worship Mary they are using an older meaning that used to define it as, in this context, simple veneration not the adoration due to God alone.

What we mean by worship these days is the adoration of God, which is what it means to most people, although the dictionary gives more than one definition, including veneration, which is not the same thing in Catholic theology.

So, Mary is not the object of worship for us. We offer her veneration of the highest order (or hyperdulia), and ask for her intercession (as a part of the Communion of Saints), but not worship in the sense our Protestant brethren mean–or we mean these days, either.

Ergo, Catholics do not worship Mary–not in the modern sense of the word.

Sorry for the long post, but such important things can’t be explained in one sentence–I apologize for not being more concise, but that’s as concise as I can be.

Exactly.
Jon

 

[Della]

Exactly.
Jon

Thanks, Jon for the back up. It’s really a simple misunderstanding of semantics on some folks’ part. I’d be just as shocked if I believed Catholics worship Mary in the manner due to God alone, too! At one time I did, but I learned what the Church actually teaches. And that’s all we Catholics ask of our Protestant brethren or non-Christians. People are still free to disagree with what we believe, but let them disagree with what we really believe not a misinterpretation of it. Yes?

 

[Hisalone]

Soli Deo gloria—God alone be the glory.

Catholics do give Mary glory due only to God.

 

[JonNC]

Soli Deo gloria—God alone be the glory.

Catholics do give Mary glory due only to God.

They say they don’t. I see no evidence to doubt them.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Thanks, Jon for the back up. It’s really a simple misunderstanding of semantics on some folks’ part. I’d be just as shocked if I believed Catholics worship Mary in the manner due to God alone, too! At one time I did, but I learned what the Church actually teaches. And that’s all we Catholics ask of our Protestant brethren or non-Christians. People are still free to disagree with what we believe, but let them disagree with what we really believe not a misinterpretation of it. Yes?

Quite right. If one disagrees with invocation of saints and the BVM, fine, but disagree with what Catholics actually do and believe, not what one thinks they do or believe.
I also think disagreeing can be charitable, in both directions.

Thanks for being charitable.

Jon

 

[Hisalone]

They say they don’t. I see no evidence to doubt them.

Jon

I once saw a thread by a Catholic and agreed to by many other Catholics that we are saved by the blood of Mary.
Jon if you have never seen evidence it is because you havent looked.

 

[gcnuss]

I once saw a thread by a Catholic and agreed to by many other Catholics that we are saved by the blood of Mary.
Jon if you have never seen evidence it is because you havent looked.

I have never seen anything like that and I am pretty sure that none of our Catholic brothers and sisters who post here would agree with it. At the same time, I have no reason to doubt that somewhere some Catholic(s) might say that, even though it goes against the teaching of the Church.

 

[Harpazo]

I once saw a thread by a Catholic and agreed to by many other Catholics that we are saved by the blood of Mary.
Jon if you have never seen evidence it is because you havent looked.

That’s not fair of you to say at all. JonNC is an honest and very educated member of the forum. You’d do well to imitate him.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Religio71]

I once saw a thread by a Catholic and agreed to by many other Catholics that we are saved by the blood of Mary.
Jon if you have never seen evidence it is because you havent looked.

Show us that thread. Then show us where it is Catholic teaching that we are saved by the blood of Mary.

Typical.

 

[Radical]

Hi Della (the author of the post) and JonNC (an honest and educated endorser of the post),

If a Catholic says we worship Mary they are using an older meaning that used to define it as, in this context, simple veneration not the adoration due to God alone.

What we mean by worship these days is the adoration of God, which is what it means to most people, although the dictionary gives more than one definition, including veneration, which is not the same thing in Catholic theology.

When we offer worship we are offer sacrifice to God. We offer God the sacrifice of our prayers and praise, of course, but for us it goes beyond that to the offering of the Sacrament of the Altar, the Eucharist. For us, no true worship is complete without it. It’s why we join all our prayers and praises to the Sacrifice of the Altar, as we put it.

Couldn’t we hope to bring some objectivity to this evaluation? I think we all agree that scripture teaches us to worship only God. The Eucharist wasn’t around for most of scripture’s creation, so the scriptural prohibition concerning"worshipping" others:

a) wouldn’t define “worship” as something that must be tied to the Eucharist (if such was the case, then one could do absolutely any act of adoration and say it isn’t worship just as long as it isn’t joined to the Sacrifice of the Altar); and

b) would prohibit worship as “worship” was known at the times of the prohibition. (which would mean that “worship” is not simply what the venerator declares to be (or not to be) worship, but rather worship is what the authors of scripture identified as worship or understood as worship and other such things along the same vein…

So, Mary is not the object of worship for us. We offer her veneration of the highest order (or hyperdulia), and ask for her intercession (as a part of the Communion of Saints), but not worship in the sense our Protestant brethren mean–or we mean these days, either.

Ergo, Catholics do not worship Mary–not in the modern sense of the word.

To repeat myself, shouldn’t we be referring to what the authors of scripture meant by “worship” and not what modern Catholics or modern Protestants mean by “worship”…in order to determine whether the venerators have gone too far?

Sorry for the long post, but such important things can’t be explained in one sentence–I apologize for not being more concise, but that’s as concise as I can be.

No need to apologize…twas a good post (except possibly for the use of “Ergo” )

Peace

 

[Benjamin118]

A lot of differences seem to get lost in translation these days, but this one should be pretty clear. We don’t worship Mary, if there are catholics out there who do, they are not following the teachings of the Catholic Church. We pray to Mary the same way we pray to Saints, but we worship neither. God is worshiped and He alone.

 

[VARC]

There is/was a very long thread that started with someone quoting a Catholic who stated that Catholics worship Mary. I didn’t read the whole thread–way too long! So, maybe someone brought this up, but if not, it needs to be said for the sake of clarity.

If a Catholic says we worship Mary they are using an older meaning that used to define it as, in this context, simple veneration not the adoration due to God alone.

What we mean by worship these days is the adoration of God, which is what it means to most people, although the dictionary gives more than one definition, including veneration, which is not the same thing in Catholic theology.

When we offer worship we are offer sacrifice to God. We offer God the sacrifice of our prayers and praise, of course, but for us it goes beyond that to the offering of the Sacrament of the Altar, the Eucharist. For us, no true worship is complete without it. It’s why we join all our prayers and praises to the Sacrifice of the Altar, as we put it.

So, Mary is not the object of worship for us. We offer her veneration of the highest order (or hyperdulia), and ask for her intercession (as a part of the Communion of Saints), but not worship in the sense our Protestant brethren mean–or we mean these days, either.

Ergo, Catholics do not worship Mary–not in the modern sense of the word.

Sorry for the long post, but such important things can’t be explained in one sentence–I apologize for not being more concise, but that’s as concise as I can be.

No matter what you say, those who harbor religious bigotry towards catholics will build up a straw man for which to pounce.

 

[Radical]

I am curious as to how the Marian devotees here would answer these questions:

1. Are there devotees in this world that go too far and in fact worship Mary?

If so, in your opinion is the problem extremely rare, rare, comon or what?

1. Are there devotees in this world that spend too much time venerating Mary?

If so, in your opinion is the problem extremely rare, rare, comon or what?

1. Are all forms of veneration appropriate, or are there forms of veneration that go too far?

If so, how do such forms go too far?

 

[Della]

Hi Della (the author of the post) and JonNC (an honest and educated endorser of the post),

Couldn’t we hope to bring some objectivity to this evaluation? I think we all agree that scripture teaches us to worship only God. The Eucharist wasn’t around for most of scripture’s creation, so the scriptural prohibition concerning"worshipping" others:

a) wouldn’t define “worship” as something that must be tied to the Eucharist (if such was the case, then one could do absolutely any act of adoration and say it isn’t worship just as long as it isn’t joined to the Sacrifice of the Altar); and

b) would prohibit worship as “worship” was known at the times of the prohibition. (which would mean that “worship” is not simply what the venerator declares to be (or not to be) worship, but rather worship is what the authors of scripture identified as worship or understood as worship and other such things along the same vein…

No, no, and no. I’m afraid you are wrong on all counts here. The Eucharist was instituted by Christ and taught by St. Paul, so it is entirely scriptural.

What I was driving at is this: prayers to Mary are not worship. My explanation about the Eucharist is a reinforcement of that truth. Plain and simple.

To repeat myself, shouldn’t we be referring to what the authors of scripture meant by “worship” and not what modern Catholics or modern Protestants mean by “worship”…in order to determine whether the venerators have gone too far?

No need to apologize…twas a good post (except possibly for the use of “Ergo” )

Peace

Whenever anyone worshiped God in the Bible he offered a sacrifice. Do a search for yourself to see that it is true. The Catholic understanding of worship is the biblical model not one in which all one does is tell God he is loved and praised, and say a few words of praise.

 

[Della]

I am curious as to how the Marian devotees here would answer these questions:

1. Are there devotees in this world that go too far and in fact worship Mary?

If so, in your opinion is the problem extremely rare, rare, comon or what?

1. Are there devotees in this world that spend too much time venerating Mary?

If so, in your opinion is the problem extremely rare, rare, comon or what?

1. Are all forms of veneration appropriate, or are there forms of veneration that go too far?

If so, how do such forms go too far?

Your questions are irrelevant to the discussion because we are not discussing what individual Catholics may or may not do out of excess or ignorance, but what the Church teaches. There are plenty of Protestants who take things too far based on their personal interpretation of the Bible, but that doesn’t negate the Bible being the written word of God. You are grasping at straws by creating a strawman argument.

 

[Della]

Quite right. If one disagrees with invocation of saints and the BVM, fine, but disagree with what Catholics actually do and believe, not what one thinks they do or believe.
I also think disagreeing can be charitable, in both directions.

Thanks for being charitable.

Jon

Thank you again, Jon. I absolutely agree.

 

[GKC]

They say they don’t. I see no evidence to doubt them.

Jon

Neither do I.

Nor, in our liturgy, do we Anglo-Catholics do so.

GKC

 

[Radical]

Whenever anyone worshiped God in the Bible he offered a sacrifice. Do a search for yourself to see that it is true.

well, for starters I searched Matthew 8:2, 9:18, 14:33, 15:25, 20:20, 28:9 and 28:17 and I have come to the conclusion that your Bible must be very different than mine

Your questions are irrelevant to the discussion because we are not discussing what individual Catholics may or may not do out of excess or ignorance, but what the Church teaches.

Ok, does your church teach that all forms of veneration are appropriate, or are there forms of veneration that go too far? Does your church teach that one can spend too much time venerating Mary? …or is there no such thing as “too much of this good thing”? Where does your church teach that “Whenever anyone worshiped God in the Bible he offered a sacrifice.”

You are grasping at straws by creating a strawman argument. .

Didn’t realize I was making any argument…thought I was asking questions. You seem more than a little defensive. Please, I would just like some honest (maybe courageous?) answers to my questions as a means of gauging how far apart the two perspectives actually are…

 

[Hisalone]

That’s not fair of you to say at all. JonNC is an honest and very educated member of the forum. You’d do well to imitate him.

In Christ,
Andrew

I dont accept what Wiccans say about themselves, nor do I accept what Mormons say about themselves-----Im funny like that.