For our Protestant brethren--Mary worship

[BernadetteM]

Some of these posters have had the teaching of the Catholic Church explained to them many times. They have been given resources to where they can find exactly what the Church teaches, but continue again and again to repeat the same fabrications about our beliefs.

Maybe it is time to ignore posters who have been taught the truth of Catholic belief. Why waste the time and energy when we know that there is nothing that can be said or proven that will change their prejudice.

When the Lord calls them Home they will then know the truth and if they are wrong and have made vindictive statements about the Church and the Blessed Mother God will handle it in His own way.

When someone who honestly wants to know what the Catholic Church believes and comes here to ask then by all means we should try to show them by scripture, tradition and history the truth of the Catholic Church.

We believe that Jesus created the One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church by faith and it is impossible to convince anyone of this truth unless they have an open heart.

I am not trying to be uncharitable, but there seems to be a time when going back and forth on the same subject has no impact on the poster and all we can do is pray for them.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[Della]

well, for starters I searched Matthew 8:2, 9:18, 14:33, 15:25, 20:20, 28:9 and 28:17 and I have come to the conclusion that your Bible must be very different than mine.

Most of those quotes speak of kneeling–in petition. Kneeling to worship is distinct from merely kneeling to petition. When a Catholic kneels before a statue of Mary it is to ask for her intercession (the statue is merely a reminder of who we are addressing–an aid to faith). However, we only kneel in adoration at the consecration of the host, in which it becomes the Body and Blood of the Risen Christ. So, we only worship God not Mary–with a sacrifice. That Jesus allowed himself to be worshiped without a visible sacrifice tells us something about him not about what it is lawful/right for us to do.

Ok, does your church teach that all forms of veneration are appropriate, or are there forms of veneration that go too far? Does your church teach that one can spend too much time venerating Mary? …or is there no such thing as “too much of this good thing”?

There can never be too much of a good thing–when it is truly good. Self indulgence can be done to excess but thanking and praising someone for doing something for you can never be over done. It is impossible to spend to much time venerating Mary if one is truly venerating her and not worshiping her. If you ever take the time to read the liturgies of the Church you will see that they are Christ centered not Mary centered. If we were excessive it would be vice versa.

Where does your church teach that “Whenever anyone worshiped God in the Bible he offered a sacrifice.”

My Church doesn’t have a formal declaration about everything the Bible says–it’s not necessary. I was pointing out a fact, not a teaching. Research the whole of the Bible and you will see that worship is offered with a sacrifice from Adam to Abraham to Jacob to Moses to Jesus. It’s right there for anyone to see.

Didn’t realize I was making any argument…thought I was asking questions. You seem more than a little defensive. Please, I would just like some honest (maybe courageous?) answers to my questions as a means of gauging how far apart the two perspectives actually are…

Your questions are loaded ones intended to make your case for you. (That’s an explanation not an accusation.) They’re the type that ask: “How many times a day do you beat your wife?” They presuppose that Catholics venerate Mary too much and then challenge us to prove that we don’t. That’s baiting, you see. And I have answered you in this post and in my last post on the topic. That you wish to hang on to the idea that Catholics are excessive in their devotion to Mary is your own idea not something Catholics need to answer.

I don’t think you are intentionally doing this, I truly believe you think we need to explain things to your satisfaction (or to Hisalone’s) instead of you needing to understand what we actually believe and practice. Why that is only you can say–not that I want you to tell me that. You need to ask yourself that question.

 

[JonNC]

I dont accept what Wiccans say about themselves, nor do I accept what Mormons say about themselves-----Im funny like that.

Why wouldn’t you accept what these folks say about themselves, pending evidence to the contrary? I, personally, prefer that people take me at my word, so I try to return to courtesy.

Originally Posted by Hisalone
I once saw a thread by a Catholic and agreed to by many other Catholics that we are saved by the blood of Mary.

There is poor catechesis in the Lutheran Church, too.

Jon if you have never seen evidence it is because you havent looked.

I have looked at the evidence they’ve provided. What evidence should I look for? Again, personally, I prefer that people ask me what I believe, and not ask someone else what I believe, and I try to return the courtesy.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

To repeat myself, shouldn’t we be referring to what the authors of scripture meant by “worship” and not what modern Catholics or modern Protestants mean by “worship”…in order to determine whether the venerators have gone too far?

The word “worship” is an English word. Translators, ISTM, would have used the word in translating scripture based on it’s usage at the time, either in scripture or in other settings. So, I’m not sure of your point.

Jon

 

[Radical]

Most of those quotes speak of kneeling–in petition. Kneeling to worship is distinct from merely kneeling to petition.

the word involved is the same one that shows up at Rev 19: 9-10 which reads:

• Then the angel said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!’” And he added, “These are the true words of God.” 10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”*

and at Rev 22: 8-9 which reads:

• I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”*

and at Matt 4:10 which reads:

• Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’” *

Therefore, you should know that Protestants will tend to view worship much more broadly than you try and define it, and they do so b/c of what they read in scriptures. The author of Rev attempts to fall down at the feet of the angel (no sacrifice being involved) and the angel says “don’t do it”. The word used in the prohibition against worshipping others than God is used at many places in the Bible w/o reference to any sacrifice being involved. If you try to claim that worship (as used in the Bible) must involve sacrifice, I believe that most Protestants will conclude that either you are ill-informed or that you are trying to rig the definition to allow worship of Mary w/o calling it such. Either way they will not be convinced.

That Jesus allowed himself to be worshiped without a visible sacrifice tells us something about him not about what it is lawful/right for us to do.

And it should also tell us about what was understood to be “worship” at the time it was declared that only God should be worshipped. Again, if you hope to convince Protestants that the venerator’s actions are proper, you will have to deal with “worship” in all its forms as it is depicted in the Bible.

There can never be too much of a good thing–when it is truly good…. It is impossible to spend to much time venerating Mary if one is truly venerating her and not worshiping her.

I find this view somewhat surprising. Everybody is limited by time….one can only pray and praise so much in a day. I would think that most Protestants would think something is very wrong if the bulk of one’s praise/prayer time is not directed to God, but is directed to Mary instead.

My Church doesn’t have a formal declaration about everything the Bible says–it’s not necessary. I was pointing out a fact, not a teaching. Research the whole of the Bible and you will see that worship is offered with a sacrifice from Adam to Abraham to Jacob to Moses to Jesus. It’s right there for anyone to see.

Sorry, I just don’t see it….and I doubt the average Protestant would be able to see it that way.

Your questions are loaded ones intended to make your case for you. (That’s an explanation not an accusation.) They’re the type that ask: “How many times a day do you beat your wife?” They presuppose that Catholics venerate Mary too much and then challenge us to prove that we don’t.

If you want Protestants to listen to what you say and accept your claim that you don’t worship Mary, then you should first start by listening to what a Protestant says he is doing….and not project intentions to him. I don’t care to argue the definition of “worship” with you, but you should note that Protestants will tend to have a definition that is very different from yours (based on biblical usage). I don’t care if you think one can’t go overboard with venerating Mary….you are entitled to your position, but you should note that most Protestants will likely think that one can easily be excessive in that regard. I, for example, am inclined to think that whether the devotee calls it veneration or not, if the veneration crosses a line (wrt quantity or quality) then at that point the venerator has crossed from what could properly be called “veneration” to what could be properly called “worship”. Again, I don’t care to argue the point with you, but you seem rather frustrated that certain Protestants refuse to accept your assertion that no worship is involved….I hope that my explanation will at least enable you to understand why certain Protestants might take that position.

That you wish to hang on to the idea that Catholics are excessive in their devotion to Mary is your own idea not something Catholics need to answer.

well it is if we hope to achieve greater unity…for unity we will need to agree on what is acceptable veneration and what is improper worship. I am in favor of pursuing unity, but such would require a certain level of openness and honest assessment by both sides.

I don’t think you are intentionally doing this, I truly believe you think we need to explain things to your satisfaction (or to Hisalone’s) instead of you needing to understand what we actually believe and practice.

You don’t need to explain anything, unless you hope to allow me an opportunity for a greater understanding….and perhaps you should try and understand what Protestants such as I believe about “worship” and about “excesses” if you hope to make us closer (but still separated) brethren.

Peace.

 

[Radical]

The word “worship” is an English word. Translators, ISTM, would have used the word in translating scripture based on it’s usage at the time, either in scripture or in other settings. So, I’m not sure of your point.

Jon

Okay, allow me to reword it as follows:

To repeat myself, shouldn’t we be referring to what the authors of scripture meant by “Proskunevw” and not what modern Catholics or modern Protestants mean by “worship”…in order to determine whether the venerators have gone too far by what they are currently doing?

Proskunevw is the word involved (translated worship) in the three passages that I just presented to Della.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I once saw a thread by a Catholic and agreed to by many other Catholics that we are saved by the blood of Mary. Jon if you have never seen evidence it is because you havent looked.

That isn’t Catholic doctrine that we are saved by the blood of Mary. Perhaps, they meant that since Jesus’ flesh and blood is from Mary. Perhaps that would explain it. However, the Catechism teaches that we are saved by the Jesus Christ.

 

[Radical]

Jon, in other words:

The Catholic (using his preferred definition of worship) claims that Catholics do not worship Mary.

The certain Protestant (using his preferred definition of worship) claims that Catholics do worship Mary.

Shouldn’t we disregard those two preferred definitons and determine whether the action wrt Mary is acceptable (or not) by seeing if it amounts to “Proskunevw” as that term was used in scriptural prohibition? Wouldn’t that be a more objective and better approach?

 

[Peter_J]

I once saw a thread by a Catholic and agreed to by many other Catholics that we are saved by the blood of Mary.

You can find some crazies in just about any religious group. I remember a number of different times when Catholic posters claimed that the Pope is infallible whenever he speaks on faith and morals, but that doesn’t make it Catholic teaching.

I dont accept what Wiccans say about themselves, nor do I accept what Mormons say about themselves-----Im funny like that.

Seriously though, I think you’re taking the idea of “Believe what we tell you about ourselves” much too literally – for example, I don’t think anyone here is surprized that you don’t believe us Catholics when we say “The Catholic Church is the one true Church”.

P.S. Anyone remember this Peanuts comic?

 

[Della]

the word involved is the same one that shows up at Rev 19: 9-10 which reads:

• Then the angel said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!’” And he added, “These are the true words of God.” 10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”*

and at Rev 22: 8-9 which reads:

• I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”*

and at Matt 4:10 which reads:

• Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’” *

Therefore, you should know that Protestants will tend to view worship much more broadly than you try and define it, and they do so b/c of what they read in scriptures. The author of Rev attempts to fall down at the feet of the angel (no sacrifice being involved) and the angel says “don’t do it”. The word used in the prohibition against worshipping others than God is used at many places in the Bible w/o reference to any sacrifice being involved. If you try to claim that worship (as used in the Bible) must involve sacrifice, I believe that most Protestants will conclude that either you are ill-informed or that you are trying to rig the definition to allow worship of Mary w/o calling it such. Either way they will not be convinced.

And it should also tell us about what was understood to be “worship” at the time it was declared that only God should be worshipped. Again, if you hope to convince Protestants that the venerator’s actions are proper, you will have to deal with “worship” in all its forms as it is depicted in the Bible.

I find this view somewhat surprising. Everybody is limited by time….one can only pray and praise so much in a day. I would think that most Protestants would think something is very wrong if the bulk of one’s praise/prayer time is not directed to God, but is directed to Mary instead.

Sorry, I just don’t see it….and I doubt the average Protestant would be able to see it that way.

If you want Protestants to listen to what you say and accept your claim that you don’t worship Mary, then you should first start by listening to what a Protestant says he is doing….and not project intentions to him. I don’t care to argue the definition of “worship” with you, but you should note that Protestants will tend to have a definition that is very different from yours (based on biblical usage). I don’t care if you think one can’t go overboard with venerating Mary….you are entitled to your position, but you should note that most Protestants will likely think that one can easily be excessive in that regard. I, for example, am inclined to think that whether the devotee calls it veneration or not, if the veneration crosses a line (wrt quantity or quality) then at that point the venerator has crossed from what could properly be called “veneration” to what could be properly called “worship”. Again, I don’t care to argue the point with you, but you seem rather frustrated that certain Protestants refuse to accept your assertion that no worship is involved….I hope that my explanation will at least enable you to understand why certain Protestants might take that position.

well it is if we hope to achieve greater unity…for unity we will need to agree on what is acceptable veneration and what is improper worship. I am in favor of pursuing unity, but such would require a certain level of openness and honest assessment by both sides.

You don’t need to explain anything, unless you hope to allow me an opportunity for a greater understanding….and perhaps you should try and understand what Protestants such as I believe about “worship” and about “excesses” if you hope to make us closer (but still separated) brethren.

Peace.

I understand quite well what Evangelical Protestants mean by worship because I was an Evangelical Protestant of the Pentecostal type for about 20 years. I have a B. A. in Bible and religious education from an Assemblies of God Bible College (now a university). What I am trying to convey to our Evangelical/non-liturgical Protestant brethren is their understanding of Catholic belief and practice is colored by their own. That’s understandable, but it isn’t helpful when they won’t accept what Catholics say about their own beliefs and practices.

You may believe and practice any way you wish. You may interpret the Bible any way you desire, but you simply can’t tell Catholics they must see things as you do. And vice versa. I am not trying to tell you how to interpret anything or what to believe, I am explaining what Catholics believe and practice and why.

As to excess–that is in the eye of the beholder and in the heart of the person. No one can judge what another means by kneeling before a statue or reading a Bible. The Bible reader may be committing idolatry of his own–he may be worshiping a book, for all anyone knows. Appearances aren’t truth.

We don’t have to defend our practices to those who are determined to misinterpret them. I don’t expect you to defend yours to me. All we ask is that you give us the benefit of the doubt and stop automatically assuming that what we are doing must be wrong because you don’t practice it and don’t accept Catholic teaching as to why we do it. That is true ecumenicism, not us having to meet your objections/expectations.

 

[JonNC]

Jon, in other words:

The Catholic (using his preferred definition of worship) claims that Catholics do not worship Mary.

The certain Protestant (using his preferred definition of worship) claims that Catholics do worship Mary.

Shouldn’t we disregard those two preferred definitons and determine whether the action wrt Mary is acceptable (or not) by seeing if it amounts to “Proskunevw” as that term was used in scriptural prohibition? Wouldn’t that be a more objective and better approach?

Would you consider this, from the LCMS website, as sufficient to describe proskuneo?
It is curious that the word “latria” is connected to worship here, but not “dulia”.

1. The word for “worship” commonly used in this specific sense in the OT is hishtahawah, from shaha, to bow, to prostrate oneself. In the NT the specific word is proskuneo—to prostrate oneself, to adore, to worship. The general concept of worship, however, included the broader aspects of “the service of God.” The OT word for this idea is abodah, from abad, to labor, to serve. In the NT this idea is expressed in the word latria,* originally meaning servitude, the state of a hired laborer or slave. Later the word described a gratuitous act by a citizen for the state, as, for instance, if a ship were built at a citizen’s expense and given to the navy. Christians use it in the terms “church service,” “divine service,” “religious service,” or simply “service.”

lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/02/display.asp?t1=w&word=WORSHIP

Jon

 

[Newbie2]

Soli Deo gloria—God alone be the glory.

Catholics do give Mary glory due only to God.

I once saw a thread by a Catholic and agreed to by many other Catholics that we are saved by the blood of Mary.
Jon if you have never seen evidence it is because you havent looked.

Show us that thread. Then show us where it is Catholic teaching that we are saved by the blood of Mary.

Typical.

Yes, evidence, please?

Saying that it is a Catholic teaching that we are all saved by the blood of Mary is like saying that Protestants believe what the WBC and the Phelps clan teaches about homosexual, doom and gloom, etc.

Yeah, there may be some theologically wacky Catholics that believe such about Mary, but it isn’t an acceptable teaching, that I believe, but I don’t believe for a microsecond that all Protestants agree with the Phelps clan.

Sounds like troll-speak to moi.

 

[mark_a]

I once saw a thread by a Catholic and agreed to by many other Catholics that we are saved by the blood of Mary.
Jon if you have never seen evidence it is because you havent looked.

I once heard a Baptist say he did not think drinking wine was a sin, many of his Baptist friends agreed as they raised their glasses.

I also have a Protestant friend that is afraid of black cats; he will not walk under a ladder, and believes if you see a “falling star” (meteor), someone in your family will die that night.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

I don’t care if you think one can’t go overboard with venerating Mary….you are entitled to your position, but you should note that most Protestants will likely think that one can easily be excessive in that regard. I, for example, am inclined to think that whether the devotee calls it veneration or not, if the veneration crosses a line (wrt quantity or quality) then at that point the venerator has crossed from what could properly be called “veneration” to what could be properly called “worship”. Again, I don’t care to argue the point with you, but you seem rather frustrated that certain Protestants refuse to accept your assertion that no worship is involved….I hope that my explanation will at least enable you to understand why certain Protestants might take that position.

You forget to take into consideration one fundamental Catholic belief in your comment above. Mary always points us to Jesus. If I spend any time at all with Mary, I will end up with Jesus. Like any good mother, she just can’t help talking about her son.

 

[Reuben_J]

…
I don’t care to argue the definition of “worship” with you, but you should note that Protestants will tend to have a definition that is very different from yours (based on biblical usage). I don’t care if you think one can’t go overboard with venerating Mary….you are entitled to your position, but you should note that most Protestants will likely think that one can easily be excessive in that regard. I, for example, am inclined to think that whether the devotee calls it veneration or not, **if the veneration crosses a line (wrt quantity or quality) then at that point the venerator has crossed from what could properly be called “veneration” to what could be properly called “worship”. ** Again, I don’t care to argue the point with you, but you seem rather frustrated that certain Protestants refuse to accept your assertion that no worship is involved….I hope that my explanation will at least enable you to understand why certain Protestants might take that position.

Peace.

This is the core of the matter, isn’t it? It has been already rightly commented on but I just want to add a little thought on this.

Your question or perhaps the question is: is veneration of Mary right or wrong?

It is certainly not a matter of whether one goes overboard in the veneration or not; or whether one crosses the line in the veneration or not, because it is obviously wrong when veneration has turned to be NOT veneration.

The Catholic Church teaches that veneration is right; worship of anything else other than God is never right which is obvious as it is against the Ten Commandment. On a side note, the Church never teaches that a Catholic MUST includes devotion to Mary as part of his spiritual practice. Devotion, which is not veneration, is merely a spirituality that enhances one spiritual life.

Therefore if you say veneration is wrong, then that’s the dividing line that divides us – our differences lie there. If you say it is acceptable, then your rationale of quantifying the time spent on the devotion / veneration does not arise, remembering that it is a tool that brings one closer to Jesus, as been mentioned earlier. How could it be wrong? Example, I love my father but if I spend a considerable amount of time with my uncle John it does not mean I love my father less.

God bless.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

You guys should see where I stayed a few nights ago.

It was a small, family run ‘‘bed and breakfast’’ - in a very small rural village.

There is a grotto to Our Lady in their front garden.

Every room in the house has numerous statues of Mary. All of them look dfferent and I asked the ‘‘Ban an Ti’’ (woman of the house) about them - I cant remember all the names she gave me.

There is a holy water font by the front door with Mary and Child above it, and there is a huge statue of Mary in a recess in the hallway, with fresh flowers all around it.

Every spare place in every room as a small, medium or large state of Mary of one kind or another, in addition to the ones I mentioned above.

In the family lounge, there is a picture of the Sacred Heart.

I wonder if its an image thing.

I dont have any reason whatsoever to think that the woman and her family worship Mary in a manner that should only be reserved for God.

But the impression their house and garden give makes it easy to think that is so.

 

[ricmat]

You guys should see where I stayed a few nights ago.

It was a small, family run ‘‘bed and breakfast’’ - in a very small rural village.

There is a grotto to Our Lady in their front garden.

Every room in the house has numerous statues of Mary. All of them look dfferent and I asked the ‘‘Ban an Ti’’ (woman of the house) about them - I cant remember all the names she gave me.

There is a holy water font by the front door with Mary and Child above it, and there is a huge statue of Mary in a recess in the hallway, with fresh flowers all around it.

Every spare place in every room as a small, medium or large state of Mary of one kind or another, in addition to the ones I mentioned above.

In the family lounge, there is a picture of the Sacred Heart.

I wonder if its an image thing.

I dont have any reason whatsoever to think that the woman and her family worship Mary in a manner that should only be reserved for God.

But the impression their house and garden give makes it easy to think that is so.

So, does all of the above lead this person closer to, or farther (further?) away from Christ? That’s the real question, isn’t it? Did you ask her?

As Mary said “my soul magnifies the Lord”. Mary is there to lead us to Christ, to help us see him better.

It’s possible of course that this person ignores God, or gives him less than she should because of a preoccupation with Mary.

BTW - I see Protestants “worshiping” the ceiling on TV all the time. Now, don’t tell me that it’s NOT what they’re doing, I can see it with my own eyes!

 

[Guyonthestreet]

So, does all of the above lead this person closer to, or farther (further?) away from Christ? That’s the real question, isn’t it? Did you ask her?

As Mary said “my soul magnifies the Lord”. Mary is there to lead us to Christ, to help us see him better.

It’s possible of course that this person ignores God, or gives him less than she should because of a preoccupation with Mary.

No I didnt ask, other than asked the titles of the different statues, and there were so many I forget them now!!!

I would not presume she worships Mary, nor would I presume she and her family ignore God and pray only to Mary - but it was an extrodinary sight, and a protestant could be forgiven for coming to the wrong conclusion. That’s why I said I wonder if it’s an image thing and if some people do take things to a bit of an extreme, providing those that claim catholics worship Mary with the fodder they need,

I dont think protestants look up at the ceiling, I thought they were all blind - theyre forever stretching their hands out

 

[Radical]

Hey Marsha, good to meet you,

You forget to take into consideration one fundamental Catholic belief in your comment above. Mary always points us to Jesus.

I am aware of that assertion, but our different perspectives see the reality of your actions playing out in two entirely different fashions. If I understand you correctly, you would believe that:

a) Mary can hear your prayers and perhaps know your thoughts and is capable of responding either by talking to you or influencing you in some other fashion. You also believe that she is also capable of taking action.

b) Mary is sinless and would always point you to Christ; and

c) therefore, if there is any negative aspect to one’s veneration of Mary, then that negative aspect would not have its source in what Mary was doing or in the veneration of her…

I, on the other hand, believe that:

1. Mary can’t hear your prayers and that one can not communicate with her at this time (I also don’t believe that she is sinless, but that doesn’t come into play as she is simply unavailable).
2. therefore, since you are not in fact communicating with her, she is not pointing you to Jesus, your attempts to petition and praise her are largely unproductive or counterproductive except to the extent that your mind is drawn to Christ in the process.

It is not that I am unaware of the Catholic belief that you referenced… But the situation is such that before we could hope to see eye to eye on how Mary would act, we would first need to see eye to eye on the matter of whether Mary continues to act.

May God bless you

 

[Radical]

This is the core of the matter, isn’t it? It has been already rightly commented on but I just want to add a little thought on this.

Your question or perhaps the question is: is veneration of Mary right or wrong?

Actually, I don’t think that is my question. You should note that in my last post that I expressed my belief that it is in fact impossible to communicate with Mary at this time and that I don’t think that she is actively involved in anything at this time. As such, I would see the veneration of her as largely unproductive or even detrimental. I guess what I am really asking is: Should Protestants (based on the authority of scripture) accept the distinction made by Catholics between worship/latria and veneration/ dulia and hyperdulia?

It is certainly not a matter of whether one goes overboard in the veneration or not; or whether one crosses the line in the veneration or not, because it is obviously wrong when veneration has turned to be NOT veneration.

Thanks for that…but then what would a Catholic see as NOT veneration? Can it be determined by an outsider, or is it merely a state of the heart? …or is there a clear difference in conduct/action etc.?
]

If you say it is acceptable, then your rationale of quantifying the time spent on the devotion / veneration does not arise, remembering that it is a tool that brings one closer to Jesus, as been mentioned earlier. How could it be wrong? Example, I love my father but if I spend a considerable amount of time with my uncle John it does not mean I love my father less.

Well, if your father is infirmed and alone and the considerable amount of time that you spend with your uncle John prevents you from properly caring for your father, then the time you spend with your uncle (although not bad in and of itself), would still be a bad thing b/c of the extent of it. Tools can be abused or misused. The angel of Rev 19 and 22 was revealing more of Jesus/God to John. John, somehow misguided, twice attempted to worship that angel by falling down at his feet. In both instances the angel told John, “Don’t do that.” We agree that neither that angel nor Mary should be worshipped. I am OK with veneration in proper measure and style, but I don’t see a scriptural distinction being made betwen dulia and hyperdulia. The question then, is whether a proper distinction can be made between the hyperdulia (that Catholics advocate for Mary) and the worship prohibited by the angel of Revelation. There must be a difference of substance (and not just of terminology). Does the intent of the venerator determine the substance of the action? Does the object of the veneration determine the substance of the action? What are your thoughts?

This perhaps, leads to one of the points that I was trying make with Della. Since I don’t recognize Catholic tradition as being w/o error, I don’t necessarily accept (as valid) the distinction (made in that tradition) between hyperdulia and worship. It isn’t good enough for this protestant that it is called by a different name…it must be different in substance. Therefore, although I realize that a Catholic claims that he doesn’t worship Mary and that it is all just hyperdulia, what I am really looking for is a substantive difference between what he does (by way of venerating Mary) and what is properly called worship (by the NT authors). Therefore, when such a Catholic complains that I won’t listen to his claim that worship isn’t involved…it is not that I don’t hear or understand the claim. It is that I am not sure that the difference in terminology is accompanied by a difference in substance.

May God bless you