For People Who Think

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I like your attitude, actually. Can you tell me what kind of secular influences were present in Afghanistan under the Taliban? My perception was that the Taliban enforced a society that was pretty close to what ‘pure’ Sharia might be, but I am admittedly not an expert in this (at all.)

Thanks for your time.
You know the word ‘Taliban’ literally means ‘students.’ That is, not scholars. They tried to implement Shari’a best they knew how, but really they didn’t have any of the etiquettes and didn’t know that it’s not something they could force on the people in the first place. My beloved sheikh could tell you that… he tells me almost every time I bring it up… 😊

But really the “secular” influence was specifically the tribal culture which is predominant in Afghanistan. They took some religion and mixed it with culture. This is why some things happen in Afghanistan (like selling a daughter to pay a debt!!) that are just very wicked and against Islam–they are cultural practices.

Afghanistan as a country has really had it rough though. People don’t understand this when they look at Afghanistan, I think, and why life is like it is there. There are real problems with warlords and poverty, the people impoverished, famine and drought so no foods, large adult population being killed in the Soviet invasion in the 80’s, and then the Taliban trying to take control later. It’s a sad story but really Islam is not to blame.
 
Frankly, I don’t care what they say, they are WRONG. And stupid too.

No, no, no, no. I’m not the one with blinders on here, I’m the one who is actually studying the teachings–the Qur’an, the Hadith. I am telling you that in 56 Muslim countries in the world today there is NOT ONE that rules by Islam. They all have various degrees of non-Islamic secular influence, and THAT is why some EVIL MEN get away with this HORRID ACT. It is FORBIDDEN in Islam. Absolutely forbidden, there isn’t even dispute on this fact.

You are trying to explain Islam by what you see. Shall I say that Catholicism teaches what I see Catholics do?

It doesn’t matter what they call it. Like I said, Islam is NOT the law, every single state from Saudi Arabia to Turkey to Indonesia to Morocco has some amount of Islam and some secular influence therefore it is NOT Islam.

I’m not going to even budge on this point.

I don’t mean to attack you personally, by the way, but it disgusts me to no end that such evil is perpetrated in the name of Islam and I think it needs to be condemned and corrected in the strongest, most forceful terms.

We agree on your last point. That Islam is used to commit horrible acts, even acts against women.

You see, it is about religion.

You say earlier in your post, that it’s the secular influence that causes these crimes. Well, it’s that it’s done, supposedly, in the name of Islam that makes people respect those things.

I agree that they are misusing religion. (That’s not exclusive to Islam)

You can judge Catholicism any way you choose. I think it’s perfectly right to judge it by the way people who practice it behave.

If you say tthat the CC teaches that it’s ok to rape children, you are wrong.

If you say that some Catholic priests rape children, and that some bishops looked the other way, you are correct.

If you say that there are church laws that allow priests to legally do this, you are wrong.

This is a case of some priests and bishops acting outside Catholic teaching and law.

I say that in some countries, Islam teaches that it’s ok for Islamic men to abuse or even kill women, and they create laws to give the men this power over women. That is true.

It might not be true of the Islam you practice, but it is true of the teaching and law of Islam in other countries.
 
You know the word ‘Taliban’ literally means ‘students.’ That is, not scholars. They tried to implement Shari’a best they knew how, but really they didn’t have any of the etiquettes and didn’t know that it’s not something they could force on the people in the first place. My beloved sheikh could tell you that… he tells me almost every time I bring it up… 😊

But really the “secular” influence was specifically the tribal culture which is predominant in Afghanistan. They took some religion and mixed it with culture. This is why some things happen in Afghanistan (like selling a daughter to pay a debt!!) that are just very wicked and against Islam–they are cultural practices.

Afghanistan as a country has really had it rough though. People don’t understand this when they look at Afghanistan, I think, and why life is like it is there. There are real problems with warlords and poverty, the people impoverished, famine and drought so no foods, large adult population being killed in the Soviet invasion in the 80’s, and then the Taliban trying to take control later. It’s a sad story but really Islam is not to blame.
FWIW, I am not anti-Islam. I am against the way some people misuse it to dominate and demean women.

I realize that the Koran is interpreted differently by different factions within Islam, and I certainly don’t accept that radical Islamist rantings are representative of true Islam.

A few years ago I ran an Internet forum that wasn’t particularly a religion forum, but it did attract a strong somewhat fundamentalist Xian following. Mostly Protestant. Mostly Southern Baptist. They were extremenly anti-Islam and said such horrible things, believing that all Muslims were in on a world-wide plot to topple the West. they talked about Islam deserving to be blasted off the face of the Earth. I tried to get a little reality injected into the discussion, but they would have none of that. They refused to believe, even, that Muslims worship the God of Abraham, instead beleiving that they worship Allah, who they think is a pagan god or gods. I honestly can’t remember what the supposed history of the name Allah was all about. It was ridiculous. I had to shut the forum down.

Islam has many Xian enemies. Catholics aren’t them.

I think you probably know that, and that’s why you’re posting on these forums. 🙂

It would be better, I think, if Muslims admit that the radical Muslims are misusing their religion, rather than blaming outside, non-Muslims forces for this bad behavior. It’s more truthful, and would go a long way in gaining deserved respect and acceptance from the rest of the world.

If Catholics went around blaming the secular world for the priests’ bad behavior, Catholics would rightly be looked down on. A few Catholics tried that tactic. It looked ridiculous and it died a quick death.

The priests were wrong. The people who covered-up for them were wrong.

They were in a position of power, and they misused it. It wasn’t Catholic teaching or law to do this, but it certainly wasn’t secular law or custom to do this either. They were guilty of a crime and they sinned. That’s it. There’s no need to cover it up or pass the blame to the secular world.

Islam should do the same. Most religious people live in the world, not apart from it. You can’t use your religion (even creating law) to abuse other people and then blame the secular world for it.

Isn’t religion supposed to temper secular things? Isn’t it supposed to make you a better person?
 
Like your second point, mostly. When he hit her chest she didn’t consider that to be beating. 🙂
but it was still painful. so its still not right to assert that mohammad did not hurt any woman.
You know that there are some really wonderful stories about how he treated her. They would drink from the same cup and he would put his lips over the same place hers had been. Once she got angry at a dinner with a lot of people and broke a pot or a plate or something, and Muhammad (saws) remains very calm and just goes about his business, not embarrassing her in public. Just very sweet.
thats pretty normal. i’m sure you know many of those who really beat up their wives, they later try to make up with sweet little gestures. right?
 
I say that in some countries, Islam teaches that it’s ok for Islamic men to abuse or even kill women, and they create laws to give the men this power over women. That is true.
It might not be true of the Islam you practice, but it is true of the teaching and law of Islam in other countries.
It doesn’t matter if people teach it, it doesn’t matter if they do it, it doesn’t matter if the law says it’s okay.

ISLAM PROHIBITS IT.

And not to be totally rude and abrasive here but this is true of ISLAM, period. It has nothing to do with Islam in one country or another country, Islam is universal.

What is wrong in Islam in America is wrong in Islam in Turkey and it’s wrong in Saudia and it’s wrong in Afghanistan if it’s wrong. And I’m telling you it’s wrong.

I’m saying it’s wrong, Islam forbids it, that the people have integrated their culture against Islam and that they VIOLATE Islam.

Simply.
 
but it was still painful. so its still not right to assert that mohammad did not hurt any woman.
Are you going to call her a liar, then?
i’m sure you know many of those who really beat up their wives, they later try to make up with sweet little gestures. right?
this is sick… i can’t even believe you said that
 
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kalt:
Isn’t religion supposed to temper secular things? Isn’t it supposed to make you a better person?
It’s supposed do.

Don’t you realize that people do what they want anyway, even if it’s against the religion?

I know you’re not going to tell me that every Catholic person on the planet is good and honest and upright 100%.

If people would stick to their religion and what their religions teach, the world would be a much better place in my opinion. It’s when they think they can do better that they abandon real morality and fall into error, fall into decadence. I’m not really forgiving on this point. Sorry if I seem harsh but it is NOT okay.
 
If someone’s life is in danger, would it be morally wrong for him to disguise himself or use camouflage in order to escape from his enemies who are out to kill him?

Is the use of disguise or camouflage in times of conflict and mortal danger in order to save one’s own life considered a morally reprehensible act of dishonesty and deceit?

If the answer is ‘NO’, then why is it such an issue for Christians if God would help his prophets escape in situations of such great danger and harm to themselves from their enemies in this manner??

Furthermore, Jesus (pbuh) is certainly not the only prophet who Allah helped escape from his mortal enemies, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) too escaped death on numerous such occasions with Allah’s help.
You forgot to mention that it was God’s will that He should suffer; He told us, through the ancient prophet Isaiah that “It was my will that he should suffer; his death was a sacrifice to bring forgiveness. And so he will see his descendants; he will live a long life, and through him my purpose will succeed.” (Is. 53:10)

“For People Who Think”, why do you suppose that God - who is above time - would change his mind?
 
Are you going to call her a liar, then?
why should I? You are the one who said “Muhammad never hit a woman”, not Aisha. Is what you said true or false? 🙂
this is sick… i can’t even believe you said that
its a fact. i cant believe you did not know that many wife beaters can be so sweet too. thats why many victims are reluctant to leave, the sweet moments kept fuelling her faith that her husband would change permanently. and sometimes the victim ends up blaming herself.
 
Is that meant to be kinky?
No, but great job of taking it out of context! 👍

There is a procedure involved in Islam before a man is allowed to “beat” his wife, and several restrictions on the “beating.” I was going through that procedure but apparently that wasn’t clear… because apparently nobody knows about it.
 
why should I? You are the one who said “Muhammad never hit a woman”, not Aisha. Is what you said true or false? 🙂
I’m just going to assume you made a mistake here, because I think you’re smarter than this. I posted the hadith for you, and a link to it, in a translation of Sahih Muslim. The hadith which says that he never hit a woman was reported by Aisha. So you are calling her (and not me) a liar.
its a fact. i cant believe you did not know that many wife beaters can be so sweet too. thats why many victims are reluctant to leave, the sweet moments kept fuelling her faith that her husband would change permanently. and sometimes the victim ends up blaming herself.
No, actually what I thought was sick was comparing Muhammad to a wife beater… still think it’s sick… you’ve got some nerve, really. By that standard Jesus was a raving lunatic in the temple with the tax collectors.
 
I’m just going to assume you made a mistake here, because I think you’re smarter than this. I posted the hadith for you, and a link to it, in a translation of Sahih Muslim. The hadith which says that he never hit a woman was reported by Aisha. So you are calling her (and not me) a liar.
First of all, believe me that I dont think you are a liar. I think you are sincerely misinformed. Now lets compare what you, me, and Aisha said:

Amy: “Muhammad never hit a woman”

Aisha: “Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) never beat anyone with his hand, neither a woman nor a servant”

“He struck me on the chest which caused me pain”

Me: “she did not consider being struck once as a form of beating”

Did Mohammad hit Aisha or not?
No, actually what I thought was sick was comparing Muhammad to a wife beater
I did not do that.

I only used a wife beater as an example to prove my point that being nice is not proof that one never strikes a woman.
 
Is it a crime to paraphrase now?

Aisha: "Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) never beat anyone with his hand, neither a woman nor a servant

For real. Take it up with 'Aisha, not me.
 
Is it a crime to paraphrase now?

Aisha: "Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) never beat anyone with his hand, neither a woman nor a servant

For real. Take it up with 'Aisha, not me.
It says hand here, you can beat up people with many other things.
 
For real. Take it up with 'Aisha, not me.
I always take it up with Aisha. But you know she revealed quite a few negative things about Mohammad, which is why Shias are not too fond of her.

So what about you, can you take it up with Aisha?

“He struck me on the chest which caused me pain”

Did Mohammad hit a woman or not? 😃
 
Why do you take something so simple and make it complicated?

Obviously when he thumbed her on her chest, she didn’t consider it beating. Which is why she said he NEVER beat ANYONE, not a woman, not a servent. FYI, if you beat someone with a stick, **it’s the same **as beating them with your hand.

I take both accounts and reconcile them thus. She didn’t consider it a beating. 👍
 
Why do you take something so simple and make it complicated?

Obviously when he thumbed her on her chest, she didn’t consider it beating.
i cant imagine how being thumbed would hurt. Unless the guy thumbing you came from the planet Krypton. 😃
FYI, if you beat someone with a stick, **it’s the same **as beating them with your hand.
nice one. okay youre right. but that would mean he punched/whacked her real hard, for it to be painful. and please tell me why she deserved that.

for me the only time i struck my woman was because she hit me twice. the 3rd time i vowed to hit back. and regretted it immediately. never happened again. 😃
 
I meant to say thumped, not thumbed.

Thumped. Like with the back of your hand.

Anyway. I wasn’t there, I don’t know. I don’t think she meant it was debilitating pain, like he broke her rib or something. And clearly it’s not allowed to leave a bruise. I think you’re still on much ado about nothing over here.
 
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