For People Who Think

  • Thread starter Thread starter LaMar
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LaMar said:
The Catholic worldview seems to be about as stable as an elaborate fortress constructed out of empty beer cans. One swift kick and the whole thing collapses into a smelly heap of rubble.
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Thats a very ignorant thing to say. The mods think i am too anti-catholic. But you are much more worst than i am. 😃
LaMar said:
People like yourselves, for example, aren’t the types of people I allow anywhere near me in the real world for any length of time.
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No offense, bud, but it looks like you are becoming the type of person you are trying to criticize here. 😦
 
dolphinlove said:
His muslim, look at his answers, its as clear as crystal, if he is lds, then zerinus is catholic!
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I had strong suspicions that he is a muslim, but ive heard him say things that is unmuslimlike

But it looks like he is ready to convert to islam just to protest against catholicm. 😃
 
Kalt –

I wanted to apologize for responding so harshly. I did read your post and agreed with it until the very end. You explained so clearly that what some people do (i.e., priests raping children) cannot be made an example of what Catholicism teaches.

This is the primary difference between the normative and descriptive approach in studying a religion. Descriptive–how the religion manifests itself in the world, looking in from the outside. Normative–how the religion describes itself.

What bothered me is that the whole time you could say that raping children is not a part of Catholicism even though it’s done by some Catholics–priests even. But then that some extremists are actually practicing Islam even though it’s a different kind of Islam.

Raping children isn’t a different kind of Catholicism, just like terrorism isn’t a different kind of Islam. It’s just NOT part of the religion, whatsoever. I felt I needed to emphasize that point.

And I’m sorry I offended you.
 
Why can’t you believe a person is whatever religion he says he is?

Some posters here call people Muslims like it is an insult. I find that kind of odd. 🤷

But it’s just immature to say that because a person is tolerant and respectful he isn’t a believer–especially in a religion that you also oppose.
 
Sister_Amy said:
Thumped. Like with the back of your hand.
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get real. thumpings dont hurt. whacking does.
Sister_Amy said:
Anyway. I wasn’t there, I don’t know. I don’t think she meant it was debilitating pain, like he broke her rib or something. And clearly it’s not allowed to leave a bruise.
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theres no use assuming whether or not she got injured there. lets just stick with the fact that Mohammad had hurt hurt. the question now is, did she as his wife deserved it? please answer. 🙂
 
AgnosTheist said:
get real. thumpings dont hurt. whacking does.
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when you are a young girl, being thumped by a larger, and much stronger man?
theres no use assuming whether or not she got injured there. lets just stick with the fact that Mohammad had hurt hurt. the question now is, did she as his wife deserved it? please answer. 🙂
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You brought it up. Why don’t you provide the explanation and situation. Aren’t you the local hadith expert?
 
IvanKaramozov said:
Well, firstly I think the Muslim account get’s them out of that if it were historical fact, however I don’t think it’s fair to say Christ being crucified is fact
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Well, why not? The scriptures were written prior to the end of the first generation of Christians. That’s only less than 50 years. It’s definitely ‘fair’ to say Christ being crucified is fact because it is recorded in the scriptures themselves.
 
IvanKaramozov said:
Fantastic.

Do you understand that it’s possible to defend a group of people from bigoted propagada and not actually believe the religion?

Here, I defend Muslims, on Wensday I defended Catholicism from some ignorant evangelist preaching in public.

LaMar may defend Islam, that dosen’t make him a Muslim
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Right. I dislike all forms of fanaticism and bigotry. Muslim, Catholic, Mormon, Jew, or Atheist. When I first got here, my fellow Mormons threatened to call my bishop and have me excommunicated, simply because I criticized Mormon loonies who vandalized a Catholic shrine. I was these people’s best pal then. 😃

The people who want to make LaMar their own personal Jesus are funny, but not important. I’m sure they’ve spent hours shaking their fists at today’s bogeyman, while I haven’t thought about them a single time. That’s as it should be.

Smart fellers who read Dostoevsky and bright ladies who can recite hadith after hadith to support their arguments can stick to the real issues, and let the squealers rage on about the image they’ve collectively created. It doesn’t bother me to be called a Muslim. I think it’s an honor they’d put me into that category, as in these parts it’s synonymous with people who think. While the Catholics haven’t taught me much of anything about religion, they provide wonderful insights into the work of Andy Kaufman…so they serve a purpose too.
 
LaMar said:
I think it’s an honor they’d put me into that category, as in these parts it’s synonymous with people who think.
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hey watch it, dude. you might encourage hamba2han into believing that he was smart in arguing that the koran made a miracle in implying that ashes dont burn. 😃
 
I don’t think conversion from LDS to Islam woud be a major transition. :cool: Go ahead if that is what you want to do. Just remember moderation. 😉
 
Sister_Amy said:
Hey let me know how it goes! If you want any tips on what to expect, let me know. I think it’s great for people to go, so they see what the imams are actually preaching. That alone would undoubtedly shock (and calm) many of the anti-Islam voices here. Keep an eye out for FBI though. :cool:
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LOL! Didn’t see any agents provocateur (though that’s the point, I imagine.)

That was a very, very interesting experience.

It began with a nice, older gent who took me through the ritual washing, which was far more complicated than I expected. There was about 10 minutes of quiet meditation which set the mood. Then the prayer and the sermon. I didn’t take an active part in the prayer, though I was invited to. I sat a little ways off to the side and in the back.

I’m still in the process of deconstructing everything in my own mind. It was a rich experience and I’m probably going to be contextualizing it for at least a week.

Thanks to you, Tom and Paarsurrey for the motivation to go and have this experience. I probably won’t return, but I’m confident that I’ll treasure the memory for the rest of my life.
 
I wanted to point out something about this phrase “for people who think.” This is something the Qur’an says, and really it’s not just “think” but for people who deeply reflect on the signs of Allah.

For example, Allah describes rain in the Qur’an:

The likeness of the life of the present is as the rain which We send down from the skies: by its mingling arises the produce of the earth- which provides food for men and animals: (It grows) till the earth is clad with its golden ornaments and is decked out (in beauty): the people to whom it belongs think they have all powers of disposal over it: There reaches it Our command by night or by day, and We make it like a harvest clean-mown, as if it had not flourished only the day before! thus do We explain the Signs in detail for those who reflect.

See how the Qur’an tells Muslims to think about these signs in the world, signs of God, and to reflect on them. So faith is not supposed to be blind, but rather based on conviction and deep reflection. Thus, for people who think.
 
Sister_Amy said:
Frankly, I would rather my husband follow the procedure in the Qur’an, which is to first tell me I’m wrong, then leave my bed, and then possibly hit me (or according to some scholars, it actually means to return and sleep with his wife). I would much rather that, then if he were to insult me, and mock me, and continually make me feel bad.
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Let me get this straight: you would rather to have your husband tell you you are wrong (even if you are not)? You would rather have your husband leave your bed or to physically strike you? If you are convinced that this isn’t insulting, mocking and emotionally abusive in and of itself to your person then, lady, you are a nutbag and need a psychiatrist!
 
If I’m NOT wrong that is a different case altogether. If he says I am wrong, then we have the opportunity to discuss it, and if I am right then my position can be made known.

On the other hand, if a man hits his wife without ever getting to that discussion phase (which happens in abuse) then he is going against Islam according to this verse.

Now, the next step is to leave the wife’s bed, and lastly a light strike (which some scholars, including those I follow, say is not hitting at all but actually the man returning to relations with his wife.)

I would GLADLY accept that alternative than have a husband who insults me publicly, constantly argues with me, disgraces me to my face and so on.

If you disagree with me then accept at least that I have a different world view than you–you do not need to call me names and it is not appropriate to do so.
 
Sister_Amy said:
I would GLADLY accept that alternative than have a husband who insults me publicly, constantly argues with me, disgraces me to my face and so on.
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Hmmm, these behaviors are not taught in any mainstream Christian sect as an example of male leadership, nor is it prevalent in secular thought (in fact, it’s just the opposite.) So I am wondering why this is presented this as an either/or proposition.

Again I will say I am grateful for your perspective on these things and I know you’re here to answer questions in good faith. I’m sorry you’re having to put up with people who attack you personally.
 
Sister_Amy said:
If I’m NOT wrong that is a different case altogether. If he says I am wrong, then we have the opportunity to discuss it, and if I am right then my position can be made known.

On the other hand, if a man hits his wife without ever getting to that discussion phase (which happens in abuse) then he is going against Islam according to this verse.

Now, the next step is to leave the wife’s bed, and lastly a light strike (which some scholars, including those I follow, say is not hitting at all but actually the man returning to relations with his wife.)

I would GLADLY accept that alternative than have a husband who insults me publicly, constantly argues with me, disgraces me to my face and so on.

If you disagree with me then accept at least that I have a different world view than you–you do not need to call me names and it is not appropriate to do so.
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Why is this an either/or situation?

FWIW, what you describe is pretty sick. If that’s acceptable behavior in Islam, run!!
 
Sister_Amy said:
On the other hand, if a man hits his wife without ever getting to that discussion phase (which happens in abuse) then he is going against Islam according to this verse.
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I dont see Mohammad getting into a discussion phase before he struck Aisha. 🤷

So why did she deserve that?
Sister_Amy said:
I would GLADLY accept that alternative than have a husband who insults me publicly, constantly argues with me, disgraces me to my face and so on.
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Well you would love a guy like me better. I neither do those things to my wife, nor do I beat her. We learned to make our marriage work through COMPROMISE. Though she pinches me from time to time. I can live with that. 😃
 
Sister_Amy said:
I wanted to point out something about this phrase “for people who think.” This is something the Qur’an says, and really it’s not just “think” but for people who deeply reflect on the signs of Allah.

For example, Allah describes rain in the Qur’an:

The likeness of the life of the present is as the rain which We send down from the skies: by its mingling arises the produce of the earth- which provides food for men and animals: (It grows) till the earth is clad with its golden ornaments and is decked out (in beauty): the people to whom it belongs think they have all powers of disposal over it: There reaches it Our command by night or by day, and We make it like a harvest clean-mown, as if it had not flourished only the day before! thus do We explain the Signs in detail for those who reflect.

See how the Qur’an tells Muslims to think about these signs in the world, signs of God, and to reflect on them. So faith is not supposed to be blind, but rather based on conviction and deep reflection. Thus, for people who think.
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That’s exactly what I like about Islam.

Ijtihad (pronounced “ij-tee-had”) is Islam’s own tradition of independent thinking. In the early centuries of Islam, thanks to the spirit of ijtihad, 135 schools of thought thrived. Inspired by ijtihad, Muslims gave the world inventions from the astrolabe to the university. So much of what we consider “western” pop culture came from Muslims: the guitar, mocha coffee, even the ultra-Spanish expression “Ole!” (which has its root in the Arabic word for God, “Allah”).

irshadmanji.com/project-ijtihad

If you get a minute, check this out and tell me what you think.
 
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