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AgnosTheist
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for me a liberal muslim is a muslim who thinks its ok to get drunk.
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Booklover
Guest
And not get flogged for doing it!for me a liberal muslim is a muslim who thinks its ok to get drunk.
Vickie
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Sister_Amy
Guest
This is a teaching contrary to Islam
This is the teaching of Islam since Muhammad
I get it now! So YOU’RE a moderate Muslim!!!
If he’s a Muslim I believe he’s a Muslim. No need for this label.
One is correct and one is not… your logic is only relative, restricted to your viewpoint.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
I would make the comparison here to “cafeteria Catholics.”
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AgnosTheist
Guest
You are contradicting yourself:
*Beating is only a last resort–and in most cases it probably won’t solve the problem. Don’t you see that? *
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3361767&highlight=last+resort#post3361767
A favor please. Can you please tell us what you think is the moderate muslim argument for saying that head cover is optional? thanks.One is correct and one is not… your logic is only relative, restricted to your viewpoint.
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LaMar
Guest
Really? I thought the RCC was the one true path to salvation? Do you feel that an Atheist or Muslim who lives a good life full of noble deeds can reach heaven? Do tell…I know I’m theistgal-come-lately in this thread, so I apologize, but I just had to respond to this one – because it’s kind of amusing that you criticize the Roman Catholic Church for not saying we’re “judged on deeds”, while in other threads (and all over the Internet), it’s criticized for saying exactly the opposite!
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Sister_Amy
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No I’m not contradicting myself. You said domestic violence. I clearly don’t think they’re the same.
The argument against the mandate of headcovering (which is quite opposite IMO to all things moderate so I won’t call it the moderate muslim argument) is basically that the head cover–khimaar–is to be used to cover the breasts according to the Qur’an. (This is true, btw.) They then argue that the adornment of a head cover became a cultural high-society practice, but that it was never mandated in Islam.
They are wrong, the truth is that the Qur’an commands women to LENGTHEN the headcover so that it covers the breasts, literally. It is still supposed to cover the head. That’s why it specifically mentions the name for a headcover (khimar) instead of just saying cover the breasts with any old thing.
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ibkc
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A husband beating his wife does not constitute domestic violence?
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AgnosTheist
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moderate muslims think they are.
The arguments I know is that they say the Koran’s main point is MODESTY. And modesty is a matter of cultural opinion. In many cultures modesty does not require covering the hair.
I think thats logical.
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Ghoti
Guest
My view – and I know I’m going to take flak for this – is that those who say they aren’t Christians, but act like they are, are in a better spot then those who *claim *to be, but do not put their faith into their actions.
I go by the parable Jesus told – I’m sure I posted it here somewhere before – about the man who had two sons. Dad tells No 1 Son, “Go out and work the fields.” Son says, “Sure, pop,” but buzzes off somewhere else. Dad tells No 2 Son, “Go out and work the fields.” Son says, “No way!” but goes out and works the fields anyways. Jesus then asks, who is doing the will of the Father?
The Catholic Church has indeed stated that there is no salvation outside the Church – but it has explained that it doesn’t mean that literally only those with their parish envelopes will get to heaven. On the other hand, the Church vehemently denies the doctrine of sola fide – that works are pointless.
And while some popes, pastors and posters may say all kinds of criteria about who will get to heaven or not, no one can say that any one is going/has gone to hell. That’s solely up to God. Hell may be empty (outside of Satan & Co) for all we know. The only caveat here is the Church can, has, and does say if a particular person may definitely be in Heaven (the saints).
As for spending eternity in Heaven (assuming I go there, God willin’) with someone I don’t like here in the forums…well, if God can forgive, why shouldn’t I? Besides, Heaven is about God (which is the way it’s *supposed *to be down here: “on earth as it is in Heaven”).
I’m sure I can get along with all the other guests, because the Host is so cool!
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Sister_Amy
Guest
What has been allowed in Islam could never, even in the strongest feminist court in the world, be considered domestic violence.
He is forbidden to hit her face.
Forbidden to leave a mark, anywhere on her body.
He is really only supposed to resort to this once, after which comes divorce.
What you call beating is something so light that scholars have likened it to being hit with a toothbrush.
On the other hand, what is seldom considered domestic violence is if a man chooses to emotionally destroy his wife, by insulting her, restricting her freedoms, mocking her, or just being in general mean… and even that is not allowed in Islam.
Frankly, I would rather my husband follow the procedure in the Qur’an, which is to first tell me I’m wrong, then leave my bed, and then possibly hit me (or according to some scholars, it actually means to return and sleep with his wife). I would much rather that, then if he were to insult me, and mock me, and continually make me feel bad.
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Sister_Amy
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Maybe you need to do more reading. The Qur’an tells women to lengthen their headcovers to cover their breasts. Which means they should cover their hair and their breasts.The arguments I know is that they say the Koran’s main point is MODESTY. And modesty is a matter of cultural opinion. In many cultures modesty does not require covering the hair.
I think thats logical.
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AgnosTheist
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hey, waitta minute. you should argue with them, not with me. i am merely reminding you what they believe.Maybe you need to do more reading. The Qur’an tells women to lengthen their headcovers to cover their breasts. Which means they should cover their hair and their breasts.
a moderate muslim is not an ultra literalist like you.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Once Allah’s Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, “O women! Give alms, **as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).” **They asked, “Why is it so, O Allah’s Apostle ?” He replied, “You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." (Book #6, Hadith #301)~Bukhari
What do you see in that guy, Mohammed?
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Sister_Amy
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Ultra literalist? Like the khawarij? Not I…hey, waitta minute. you should argue with them, not with me. i am merely reminding you what they believe.
a moderate muslim is not an ultra literalist like you.
I consider myself to be “moderate” in the sense of 2:143; moderate in the sense that I don’t go to extremes.
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ibkc
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Why not just require men to treat their women with dignity, as if they are adults, and to never resort to toothbrush-whacking in the first place? Giving them the option of hitting women at all, no matter how lightly, smacks to me of believing the woman is a petulant child or a slave who must be forcibly kept in line.
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kalt
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But what does that prove?
I’ve heard that Muhammad was a fake–a political activist who used religion as a tool to control people.
He was ambitious, I’ll give him that. Prophet. Not a chance.
You’re saying that I have to take eyewitness accounts as proof?
Why should Im, when you’re argument is that eyewitness testimony has no value?
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AgnosTheist
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okay lets split it then.
- liberal
- moderate
- fundamentalist (literalist) I think you belong here.
- extremist (ultra literalist)
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Sister_Amy
Guest
It might seem that way… or “smack” that way as you put it… lol…
But really, the Qur’an actually commands men to live in good relations with their wives. In good relations, with compassion and kindness. My fiance is actually writing a research paper on that topic specifically, how men are supposed to treat women with dignity and compassion.
You see, Muhammad never hit a woman. And he told his followers that the best among them is the oen who is the best to his women (meaning to his mother, his sisters, wife, daughters, aunts, nieces, etc!). So the fair and good treatment of women is a far more emphasized point in Islam than this business of dispute.
The problem that Islam faces is that naturally women are oppressed–men take the tyrannical route, they act out of anger, they mistreat their wives. This is universal. Has nothing to do with religion, just that men mistreat women in general. So Islam tells the man that if his wife does something she shouldn’t (like, it’s not allowed in Islam) then instead of getting angry and hitting her (like a lesser man might do) he must follow these steps… first this, and then that, and so on, before he can hit her at all. And then if it ever gets to that point it’s so light as to merely be symbolic. So really it’s more about preventing domestic abuse and encouraging good relations and cooperation, but preventing the men from acting impulsively out of anger.
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Sister_Amy
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laa ilaaha illa Allahokay lets split it then.
- liberal
- moderate
- fundamentalist (literalist) I think you belong here.
- extremist (ultra literalist)
I have no need for labels.
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