For People Who Think

[peary]

If I’m NOT wrong that is a different case altogether. If he says I am wrong, then we have the opportunity to discuss it, and if I am right then my position can be made known.

On the other hand, if a man hits his wife without ever getting to that discussion phase (which happens in abuse) then he is going against Islam according to this verse.

Now, the next step is to leave the wife’s bed, and lastly a light strike (which some scholars, including those I follow, say is not hitting at all but actually the man returning to relations with his wife.)

I would GLADLY accept that alternative than have a husband who insults me publicly, constantly argues with me, disgraces me to my face and so on.

If you disagree with me then accept at least that I have a different world view than you–you do not need to call me names and it is not appropriate to do so.

The Koran FOSTERS abuse of women by men. How can you possibly deny this?

 

[LaMar]

The Koran FOSTERS abuse of women by men. How can you possibly deny this?

The same could be said about the Bible. You should admit this before criticizing others.

**1 Corinthians 11:5: And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head–it is just as though her head were shaved.

1 Timothy 2:11: A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.

1 Corinthians 14:34: Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. **

Yuck. What a sick philosophy. I’m glad the Christians I know have rejected these primitive ideas, encapsulated in the New Testament.

 

[peary]

The same could be said about the Bible. You should admit this before criticizing others.

**1 Corinthians 11:5: And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head–it is just as though her head were shaved.

1 Timothy 2:11: A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.

1 Corinthians 14:34: Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. **

Yuck. What a sick philosophy. I’m glad the Christians I know have rejected these primitive ideas, encapsulated in the New Testament.

LaMar -
True, but you can’t say the same about the Holy Scriptures as you can about the Koran with regard to fostering abuse on women to the same degree. And the verses quoted above do not even come close to what the Koran says.

A woman in Islam is considered a “toy” ! This is taken literally from what the prophet Mohammed and the Just Khalif Umar Ibn Al Khattab (one of Mohammed’s fathers-in-law) declared.

Sura 4:34 (a chapter in the Koran ) states, “Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other.” On page 36 of his book, The Women and Islam, Ahmed Zaki Tuffaha wrote, “God established the superiority of men over women by the above verse (Sura 4:34), which prevents the equating of men and woman. For here man is above the woman due to his intellectual superiority….”

In Sahih Al Bukhari’s book, which Muslims consider the most authentic book after the Koran he writes, "Allah’s Apostle once said to a group of woman ; “I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious, sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The woman asked; “O Allah’s Apostle, what is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said; “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said; “This is the deficiency of your intelligence…Is not it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The woman replied in the affirmative.

Not only, but also the Koran fosters forced marriage, polygamy, female slavery, divorce and wife-beating. I find the Koran a disgusting insidious book of Satan that has enslaved the minds of over a billion people on this planet.

 

[LaMar]

Peary,

Now you’re quibbling. I could point out that Amy doesn’t seem to be uneducated, oppressed or exploited. She’s the example of a female Muslim we have to draw upon here on this forum. I’m sure we’ll both agree that she seems capable of being assertive and she sees herself as the subject of her own narrative. I suspect she’s smarter than both of us (I know she writes better). She might make more money and enjoy life more than we do also (I suspect it’s pretty comparable).

This is another example of a Muslim woman:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irshad_Manji

So it seems that these female fans of the Qur’an are pretty similar to the (female) rector of my local Episcopal church, who likes the New Testament enough to preach, even though it forbids her from doing so.

LaMar -
Not only, but also the Koran fosters forced marriage, polygamy, female slavery, divorce and wife-beating. I find the Koran a disgusting insidious book of Satan that has enslaved the minds of over a billion people on this planet.

Mmm-hmm. That’s nice.

 

[peary]

Peary,

Now you’re quibbling. I could point out that Amy doesn’t seem to be uneducated, oppressed or exploited. She’s the example of a female Muslim we have to draw upon here on this forum. I’m sure we’ll both agree that she seems capable of being assertive and she sees herself as the subject of her own narrative. I suspect she’s smarter than both of us (I know she writes better). She might make more money and enjoy life more than we do also (I suspect it’s pretty comparable).

This is another example of a Muslim woman:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irshad_Manji

So it seems that these female fans of the Qur’an are pretty similar to the (female) rector of my local Episcopal church, who likes the New Testament enough to preach, even though it forbids her from doing so.

Mmm-hmm. That’s nice.

**So, now I suppose that some Imam will put a fatwa on me… **

 

[LaMar]

**So, now I suppose that some Imam will put a fatwa on me… **

Have you ever been to your local Islamic Center?

I went yesterday. It was very nice. Everyone knew I was an unbeliever, and nobody bothered me. Unlike the Catholics, they invite virtuous people of all faiths and none to join them in the complete service, so I could argue that they are much more tolerant than the Roman Catholic Church. I declined, and they were fine with that too.

I heard not one offensive thing there. Nobody beat his wife or daughter. There were no plots to cause trouble. They were all good people indulging in the search for meaning.

Your comments remind me of similar comments directed toward Jews by Catholics here. They also remind me of comments I heard growing up, directed at Catholics by Mormons. It’s unfortunate that people who know absolutely nothing about people outside their own private club indulge in demonizing the other, but I suppose that’s life.

 

[peary]

Have you ever been to your local Islamic Center?

I went yesterday. It was very nice. Everyone knew I was an unbeliever, and nobody bothered me. Unlike the Catholics, they invite virtuous people of all faiths and none to join them in the complete service, so I could argue that they are much more tolerant than the Roman Catholic Church. I declined, and they were fine with that too.

I heard not one offensive thing there. Nobody beat his wife or daughter. There were no plots to cause trouble. They were all good people indulging in the search for meaning.

Your comments remind me of similar comments directed toward Jews by Catholics here. They also remind me of comments I heard growing up, directed at Catholics by Mormons. It’s unfortunate that people who know absolutely nothing about people outside their own private club indulge in demonizing the other, but I suppose that’s life.

**LaMAr -
I don’t know what Catholic Church near you that won’t let you ‘in’ but I know of none, and I’ve been a Catholic Christian all my life. And I’ve lived in three different states. And there is no Catholic Church which will not let you stay for the entire Mass. I don’t even think you’ve even been to a Catholic Liturgy! Otherwise, you wouldn’t have made such a preposterous and false accusation!

Now, if you READ (as in past tense - ‘red’) my posts correctly, my comments were not directed to Arabs, or Jordanians, or Iraqis, or Iranians, or Saudis, or Kuwaitis, or any number of others who are of middle eastern heritage. My comments were made specifically about the Koran. I did not say that Muslim men, as a general rule, beat up their wives or their daughters. My comments were made specifically about what the Koran and Hadith teaches.
I did not say that Muslims are involved in ‘plots’ for God-only-knows-what. My comments were made specifically about how the Koran fosters second-class citizenship of women, and that it further teaches the superiority of men over women.

I have also been in these forums, and I have never read (past tense again, ‘red’ so you don’t get too confused) Catholics making anti-Semitic statements. However, I have read innumerable posts by nonCatholics in these forums who have done so. Yeah, and that’s just life.**

 

[LaMar]

LaMAr -
I don’t know what Catholic Church near you that won’t let you ‘in’ but I know of none, and I’ve been a Catholic Christian all my life. And I’ve lived in three different states. And there is no Catholic Church which will not let you stay for the entire Mass. I don’t even think you’ve even been to a Catholic Liturgy! Otherwise, you wouldn’t have made such a preposterous and false accusation!

That’s not what I wrote. It’s a strange thing to see every other rebuttal by Catholics to non-Catholics written as a blatant strawman fallacy.

When I went to the Catholic Mass, I was not invited to partake in the eucharist. I wouldn’t have done so anyway, but I was not invited.

When I went to the mosque, in contrast, I was invited to participate in everything the Muslims were doing, down to the bowing and kneeling in prayer. I politely declined this, but it was made clear to me that peaceful non-believers were welcome to participate in what way they chose, and there was even a fellow who was willing to spend his time teaching me, rather than meditating.

That’s the tolerance of Islam, which does not seem to exist in the Roman Catholic Church. If you can address it, I’d welcome you to do so. If not, no big deal; but spare us the Catholic tactic of just making something up out of whole cloth and arguing with a phantom. It makes you guys look ridiculous and doesn’t add anything valuable to the discussion.

 

[ibkc]

See, LaMar, what you’re interpreting as ‘intolerance’ is actually, on the part of Catholic faithful, a protection for you. We believe that it is a mortal sin to partake of the Eucharist unworthily, and ‘unworthily’ includes not believing that it is really the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. If we thought of the Eucharist as merely symbolic, as many non-Catholic Christians do, then that would be different. It has nothing to do with intolerance of the beliefs of others. If you were really as tolerant as you continually pat yourself on the back for being, you’d understand this and be fine with it.

 

[LaMar]

See, LaMar, what you’re interpreting as ‘intolerance’ is actually, on the part of Catholic faithful, a protection for you. We believe that it is a mortal sin to partake of the Eucharist unworthily, and ‘unworthily’ includes not believing that it is really the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. If we thought of the Eucharist as merely symbolic, as many non-Catholic Christians do, then that would be different. It has nothing to do with intolerance of the beliefs of others. If you were really as tolerant as you continually pat yourself on the back for being, you’d understand this and be fine with it.

Right, and the exclusion of non-Mormon family members from LDS weddings in the temple is actually a “protection” for them too.

Try again.

 

[ibkc]

Right, and the exclusion of non-Mormon family members from LDS weddings in the temple is actually a “protection” for them too.

Try again.

Oh please - how on earth can you equate the two?

The thing is, no one will physically stop you from receiving the Eucharist if you decide you want to do it. You can walk into any Mass and go up there and take it and no one will be the wiser. Since you think it’s all hogwash anyway, what is stopping you? whyme claims he does it, and he doesn’t believe in it any more than you do. Really, I am not impressed with your whining about this. It’s very silly. Time to man up, LaMar.

 

[LaMar]

Oh please - how on earth can you equate the two?

The thing is, no one will physically stop you from receiving the Eucharist if you decide you want to do it. You can walk into any Mass and go up there and take it and no one will be the wiser. Since you think it’s all hogwash anyway, what is stopping you? whyme claims he does it, and he doesn’t believe in it any more than you do. Really, I am not impressed with your whining about this. It’s very silly. Time to man up, LaMar.

Nice to see you can’t respond without getting personal and insulting. I’m sure the average Catholic is proud to have you in his/her ranks.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sura 4:34 (a chapter in the Koran ) states, “Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other.” Ahmed Zaki Tuffaha wrote, “God established the superiority of men over women by the above verse (Sura 4:34), which prevents the equating of men and woman. For here man is above the woman due to his intellectual superiority….”

I have a few points to make about this directly, I hope you will take me seriously in this response. The position of women in Islam is often misrepresented on this forum and most of the time I don’t reply–I feel like it won’t be read. The better translations of this ayah actually say: “Men are the protectors and maintainers of women.” The footnote in my Qur’an says “This primarily applies to a husband-wife relationship.” This is important, because it is actually establishing a marital relationship, pointing out that the man has the responsibility to protect the wife, and if you actually read it, you’ll see it says immediately that the reason men are protectors/maintainers or "in charge"is literally, quoting Qur’an here “because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means” So basically, because men are stronger they are supposed to protect women, and because they are charged with financially supporting their wives, the men are the maintainers. This is all in that same verse.

It does not establish the superiority of men. It in fact establishes the role of responsibility that men have. But if you look a few verses previously you see this verse establishing rights of women:

O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness (that is, adultery); on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)

You see here the Qur’an telling men to live with their women with KINDNESS and EQUITY, in other translations to live with them honorably, with compassion, in good relations.

Men who assert the “superiority” of men in order to abuse women are acting out of Islam.

Not only, but also the Koran fosters forced marriage, polygamy, female slavery, divorce and wife-beating. I find the Koran a disgusting insidious book of Satan that has enslaved the minds of over a billion people on this planet.

This is not true. First of all, forced marriage is not allowed. A woman’s consent is an absolutely necessary fundamental condition of marriage. A woman cannot be married without her consent.

Secondly, polygamy is not allowed in Islam, only polygyny, and it is restricted. It is the only religion I know of that actually restricts the practice of polygyny, which is to four wives, and absolutely requires that the man treat each wife with the same treatment–that means financially and in other means of support. If one has a 3 bedroom 2 bathroom house and a mercedes, then the other wife also gets her own 3 bedroom 2 bathroom house and a mercedes. If the man is not able to provide for both families this way, then he is not allowed to marry more than one woman.

Slavery is allowed, but if a woman who is a slave gets pregnant she is automatically freed. If she is ever hit or beaten and gets a bruise or hit on the face then she is automatically freed as well I think. Slavery was at the time something cultural, which was eventually eliminated due to the means of freeing slaves in Islam. It is not permissible to just willynilly take someone and force them into slavery, and there are no conditions today which would allow slavery to return to a practice.

Wife-BEATING is not allowed. Again, a man is acting against Islam if he hits his wife hard enough to leave a bruise, and he is not allowed to hit her face. He is only allowed to use this measure after other measures (previously defined in an aforementioned verse) and it shouldn’t be out of anger but a sincere effort to correct her. It is more symbolic than anything else, and should never be abuse.

And unlike some other religions, divorce IS allowed in Islam because sometimes the marriage fails. On the other hand it is not encouraged but a hated act, even though it is allowed. Both the husband and the wife are allowed to initiate a divorce.

If a Catholic woman’s wife begins to abuse her, steal her money, or something else, and she is not allowed a divorce, what is her recourse? In Islam the woman can get a divorce… other religions would force her to stay in the marriage against her wishes so once again I think this is a right of the women.

 

[peary]

That’s not what I wrote. It’s a strange thing to see every other rebuttal by Catholics to non-Catholics written as a blatant strawman fallacy.

When I went to the Catholic Mass, I was not invited to partake in the eucharist. I wouldn’t have done so anyway, but I was not invited.

Well, you weren’t ‘invited’ because you are not an intergral part of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church, and your beliefs are not the same as ours. But that is a far cry from saying that you were not allowed to stay for the entire liturgy.

When I went to the mosque, in contrast, I was invited to participate in everything the Muslims were doing, down to the bowing and kneeling in prayer. I politely declined this, but it was made clear to me that peaceful non-believers were welcome to participate in what way they chose, and there was even a fellow who was willing to spend his time teaching me, rather than meditating.

Meditating on your knees, bowing down and whatever else they do in the muslim service is radically different than what the Catholic Christians do. For one thing, Muslims reject Christ. And they reject the Eucharist.

That’s the tolerance of Islam, which does not seem to exist in the Roman Catholic Church. If you can address it, I’d welcome you to do so. If not, no big deal; but spare us the Catholic tactic of just making something up out of whole cloth and arguing with a phantom. It makes you guys look ridiculous and doesn’t add anything valuable to the discussion.

If anybody looks ridiculous, it’s your agenda against us, and THAT is what doesn’t add anything valuable to the discussion.
Islam tolerance? wow, you’ve got a ways to go before you even BEGIN to understand ANYTHING!

 

[Sister_Amy]

I think peary it is you who has a ways to go before you begin to understand anything–to use your words.

LaMar–I’m curious, man, what kind of meditation are you talking about?

 

[peary]

I think peary it is you who has a ways to go before you begin to understand anything–to use your words.

LaMar–I’m curious, man, what kind of meditation are you talking about?

Amy -

Been there; done that. And I have ceased to be a “roamin’” Catholic, by the way. Christ is the center of my life. He always has and always will be. Amen.

 

[LaMar]

I think peary it is you who has a ways to go before you begin to understand anything–to use your words.

LaMar–I’m curious, man, what kind of meditation are you talking about?

Before the service, when I entered the prayer room (?), a great many people were sitting quietly with their eyes closed, hands up, in a prayer position. Is this a part of the Muslim service?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Before the service, when I entered the prayer room (?), a great many people were sitting quietly with their eyes closed, hands up, in a prayer position. Is this a part of the Muslim service?

This is called du’a or supplication. They are praying, asking God for things. Muslims do pray five times a day, what you witnessed with the standing and bowing and all. But there is another kind of prayer, the du’a, which is called the essence (literally bone marrow) of worship. Very important, too.

And Muslims when they make du’a often turn their hands up to God, kind of like a beggar who is asking for something, to catch anything they drop or give.

At the end of the sermon and before the congregational prayer usually the imam (who gave the sermon) will make a du’a and everyone does the same, repeating “Ameen, ameen” after it.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Amy -

Been there; done that. And I have ceased to be a “roamin’” Catholic, by the way. Christ is the center of my life. He always has and always will be. Amen.

Well, to use the words of Christ (may Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him), why are you worried about the speck in your neighbor’s eye when you have a plank in your own?

 

[LaMar]

This is called du’a or supplication. They are praying, asking God for things. Muslims do pray five times a day, what you witnessed with the standing and bowing and all. But there is another kind of prayer, the du’a, which is called the essence (literally bone marrow) of worship. Very important, too.

And Muslims when they make du’a often turn their hands up to God, kind of like a beggar who is asking for something, to catch anything they drop or give.

At the end of the sermon and before the congregational prayer usually the imam (who gave the sermon) will make a du’a and everyone does the same, repeating “Ameen, ameen” after it.

Thank you so much for explaining this! It’s nice to have someone who can give me the details.

I’m still analyzing it in my own mind. It was a very powerful experience, and I can understand why so many people are choosing to embrace Islam.