For police, the goal is vigilance, not vigilantes

  • Thread starter Thread starter Robert_Sock
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BroomWagon said:
Who said different?? Are you saying there have been no Stand Your Ground/Concealed Carry Weapons Permits/Self-Defense laws enacted in the last 20 years years?

No. What I was pointing out is there is a difference between having the right to defend oneself and legally having the means, or effective means. My 82 year old mother has the right to defend herself but no the legal right to anything other than her fists.

That’s was my point!

Understood.

No figures cited. Thank you.

“FBI crime data support Lott’s premise. As more law-abiding citizens arm themselves, violent crimes drop and property crimes rise. Of all FBI major crime categories, only burglary increased between 2000 and 2010 (over 5%). Meanwhile, homicide incidents decreased over 5%, robbery decreased 10%, and aggravated assaults decreased 15%.”

ETA: Note this is consistent with the Australia/USA experience and data cited earlier.

pjmedia.com/blog/politicized-science-no-castle-doctrine-does-not-increase-violent-crime/2/ with link to the FBI stats in the article.
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Robert_Sock said:
Do criminals shiver in fear knowing that the average citizen may be carrying a gun?.
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That’s a priority concern here in America? Are they shivering in fear carrying one? I don’t see them turning them in? Oh they are protecting their right to commit crime?
 
styrgwillidar said:
http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/clics2012a/commsumm.nsf/b4a3962433b52fa787256e5f00670a71/10498c3a3264be7887257998006fe0d7/$FILE/HseJud0202AttachN.pdf

Study paid for by the U.S. Department of Justice attempting to confirm the authors belief that strict gun control lowered crime . That study included a survey of ~1,900 felons

81% of interviewees agreed that a “smart criminal” will try to determine if a potential victim is armed.
74% indicated that burglars avoided occupied dwellings, because of fear of being shot.
57% said that most criminals feared armed citizens more than the police.
40% of the felons said that they had been deterred from committing a particular crime, because they believed that the potential victim was armed.
57% of the felons who had used guns themselves said that they had encountered potential victims who were armed.
34% of criminal respondents said that they had been scare off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed citizen.
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Of these responses, how many had to do with CCWs? Sounds like it all had to do with home invasions. And, it is entirely based on survey, not a causal design.
 
Robert_Sock said:
My main contention is that vigilantes will seek concealed gun permits if they are able to.
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Question: How come your main contention isn’t that vigilantes will seek concealed guns? Why so hung up on permits? Why the fallacious assumption that a lawbreaker will seek a piece of paper before commiting acts of lawbreakiness?
Robert_Sock said:
And adding gunslinging vigilantes will miraculously end crime?
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Blind assumption to examine: People who seek conceal carry permits are, or may become “gunslinging vigilantes”.
Blind assumption to examine: Genuine gunslinging vigilantes will always seek a permit before slinging their gun.
No, but allowing victims the means to effectively defend themselves does lower violent crime.
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Show me the causal data analysis that supports this?
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It’s right next to your causal data analysis that supports your claim that legalizing conceal-carry leads to vigilanteism. :rolleyes:
 
Robert_Sock said:
And adding gunslinging vigilantes will miraculously end crime?
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So…many…logical fallacies in a single…post…

Show me the causal data analysis that supports this. That shall issue permits leads to “gunslinging vigilantes”.

Can I just dismiss any analysis you provide as “a correlational study”??

:rolleyes:
 
NeuroTypical said:
Question: How come your main contention isn’t that vigilantes will seek concealed guns? Why so hung up on permits? Why the fallacious assumption that a lawbreaker will seek a piece of paper before commiting acts of lawbreakiness?

Blind assumption to examine: People who seek conceal carry permits are, or may become “gunslinging vigilantes”.
Blind assumption to examine: Genuine gunslinging vigilantes will always seek a permit before slinging their gun.

It’s right next to your causal data analysis that supports your claim that legalizing conceal-carry leads to vigilanteism. :rolleyes:
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You beat me to that by a full minute!! 😃
 
NeuroTypical said:
Question: How come your main contention isn’t that vigilantes will seek concealed guns? Why so hung up on permits? Why the fallacious assumption that a lawbreaker will seek a piece of paper before commiting acts of lawbreakiness?
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CCWs will only exasperate the problem of vigilantism.
NeuroTypical said:
Blind assumption to examine: People who seek conceal carry permits are, or may become “gunslinging vigilantes”.
Blind assumption to examine: Genuine gunslinging vigilantes will always seek a permit before slinging their gun.
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Again, CCWs will only exasperate the problem of vigilantism. Who is saying ‘always?’
NeuroTypical said:
It’s right next to your causal data analysis that supports your claim that legalizing conceal-carry leads to vigilanteism. :rolleyes:
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I fail to follow you here. Please clarify.
 
Uh, Bob, what battle are you trying to fight exactly? You do realize that most states have shall-issue CCW available now? In some places for 25 or more years? This whole fear of vigilanteism act is dated and is supported by no data whatsoever. CCW holders are, as a group, exceptionally law abiding. Deal with it.
 
Robert_Sock said:
Of these responses, how many had to do with CCWs? Sounds like it all had to do with home invasions. And, it is entirely based on survey, not a causal design.
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Is someone stealing your TV now a good enough reason to shoot someone with your concealed weapon?
 
GaryTaylor said:
The home Invasion aspect, what are your thoughts on protection in that situation?
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Under state laws for those that live in concealed weapon states is it justified to shoot a robber that has not threatened your life?
 
MaryT777 said:
Is someone stealing your TV now a good enough reason to shoot someone with your concealed weapon?
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Home about the Cheshire CT home invasion, rape, murder, robbery arson, and one unarmed survivor to live then on with that memory?
 
MaryT777 said:
Is someone stealing your TV now a good enough reason to shoot someone with your concealed weapon?
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if they are stealing my tv ,their in my house and my gun isn’t concealed.and home invasion is violent crime 🤷
 
MaryT777 said:
Under state laws for those that live in concealed weapon states is it justified to shoot a robber that has not threatened your life?
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That’s a different section of law than CCW permitting. I’m not aware of anywhere in the country anymore (maybe DC or Chicago?) where people aren’t allowed to carry a pistol concealed in their own home, permit or not.

In many states there is a presumption that homeowners or residents can make that an invader is hostile and/or violent. Plus you can’t possibly know if someone is armed in many situations. I would attempt to stop whatever was in progress before shooting though, with the recognition that their next act will be to use a weapon they might be concealing themselves. The situation can change quickly.
 
MaryT777 said:
Under state laws for those that live in concealed weapon states is it justified to shoot a robber that has not threatened your life?
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by definition ,robbery is a threat
robbery |ˈräb(ə)rē|
noun ( pl. -beries)
the action of robbing a person or place : he was involved in drugs, violence, extortion, and robbery | an armed robbery.
• Law the felonious taking of personal property from someone using force or the threat of force.
 
scipio337 said:
Show me the causal data analysis that supports this

Show me the causal data analysis that supports this
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It’s based on common sense. What vigilante would not want a CCW permit so they could get away with bloody murder?
 
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