For Pope Francis, legalism makes Christians stupid. [CNA]

[cfauster]

Again, if we remember this one sentence that causes so much attention has context, a reading of Galatians explains what he was teaching. Then the whole of his homily makes sense. It is hardly controversial. It is just a presentation of St. Paul.

Indeed. As the prompting article, cited by the original post for this thread, put it:

“Pope Francis’ homily drew on St. Paul’s Letter to the Galatians, which included several rebukes and warnings about legalism. The Pope noted that one can wrongly seek justification in doctrine and law, and not through Jesus “who makes sense of the Law.” There is the temptation to reduce the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ to the Law.”

 

[KSU]

Indeed. As the prompting article, cited by the original post for this thread, put it:

“Pope Francis’ homily drew on St. Paul’s Letter to the Galatians, which included several rebukes and warnings about legalism. The Pope noted that one can wrongly seek justification in doctrine and law, and not through Jesus “who makes sense of the Law.” There is the temptation to reduce the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ to the Law.”

We must be careful here. Pope Francis merely is reminding us that the law shouldn’t be misused; what else is new?

The Pope also would be the first to confirm that neither the law nor the Church’s unchangeable teaching of it should be reduced for one’s justification: "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

This sword has two edges.

 

[philipl]

On the flip side, “legalistic” is also thrown at faithful Catholics who are actually in fact just obedient.

But now with the new understanding of the faith to quote Francis

“But look, the revelation is not clear, eh? The revelation of God is discovered more and more each day, it is always on a journey”

Every day the faith becomes more clear, those Catholic 500 years ago didn’t have the revelations we have today. Don’t worry about it, God has you covered. Do what you think is right and all will be OK.

 

[kozlosap]

So we should not do any works of mercy that have to do with correcting our brothers and sisters. Fornication, Beastiality, Rape, Homosexuality are all Mortal sins. We should not let people know this because it is too legalistic?

You do realize that gay people are not evil, right?

 

[KSU]

You do realize that gay people are not evil, right?

Catholicism 101: Love the sinner, hate the sin. Homosexuality is a sin to be hated.

Nothing the Pope said about legalism changes that one bit, although there are people who would have us believe otherwise.

 

[zz912]

The Ten Commandments, if you remember, were given to the nation of Israel. They are not “commandments” to us. That is why we do not rest on the Sabbath. Rather we follow, teach and use them because they represent the embodiment of moral law. We do not need to concern ourselves with the ten commandments if we follow the instruction of Jesus to love God with all our hear, and love our neighbor as ourselves. He said all the commandments (not just the ten) can be obeyed by doing this. Furthermore, he instructed that the we should go even further by avoiding hate, as well as murder, and lust as well as adultery.

The Church disagrees with you. The Catechism has an entire section on the importance of and requirement to follow the Ten Commandments.

2072 Since they express man’s fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.** They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. **The Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

And the Church, in her authority, has transferred the requirement to rest from the Sabbath (Saturday) to the Lord’s Day (Sunday). So the commandment still applies but for the Lord’s Day. The Church teaches that we are to refrain from servile work on Sunday.

 

[pnewton]

The Church disagrees with you.

Come on, don’t be silly. That’s a Catholic version of “Jesus disagrees with you”. The sentence before you quoted says, "the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations. " They are immutable. Yet you know the funny thing. The Catholic Church does not teach us that we must rest and observe Saturday as the Lord’s Holy Day. This fact alone must surely give a clue to any reasonable person that something else is going on.

So, those who are defending Catholic legalism, do you stay at home and avoid all travel, work and activity every Saturday? If not, it is worth exploring why you do not.

Then there is still Galatians to explain, remembering that it is an older and more weight Church document than most. I really think it opens up this subject and provides clarity to what the pope is saying. We do not live by the law, as understood in a serious of commandments. The law of love is Christianity.

 

[kozlosap]

Catholicism 101: Love the sinner, hate the sin. Homosexuality is a sin to be hated.

Nothing the Pope said about legalism changes that one bit, although there are people who would have us believe otherwise.

Obviously I disagree with your definition, as does the Church. Gay individuals are not a “sin” to be hated, the Church dogma is that the sexual acts are a sin just as it is the exact sin if straight individuals participate in anal sex, whether married or not.

 

[KSU]

Originally Posted by KSU
Catholicism 101: Love the sinner, hate the sin. ** Homosexuality** is a sin to be hated.

Obviously I disagree with your definition, as does the Church. Gay individuals are not a “sin” to be hated, the Church dogma is that the sexual acts are a sin just as it is the exact sin if straight individuals participate in anal sex, whether married or not.

You changed the word “Homosexuality” into “Gay individuals” , thus creating a straw man and ending any chance at on-topic debate.

If, however, you are attempting to stay on topic by implying that it is an example of legalism to say homosexuality is a sin, please just say so.

 

[JosieN]

We do not live by the law, as understood in a serious of commandments. The law of love is Christianity.

What do you mean when you say the law of love is Christianity? God revealed His love for us through His Son Jesus Christ when He sent Him to die on the cross for us. Is that what you mean when you say the law of love is Christianity?

When we obey God’s commandments don’t you think that shows our love for Him and His love for us also? I believe most of us understand that there are times when it cannot be followed to the letter of the law, but we must live by the law as understood in the commandments to the best of our ability in order for us to be able to understand His love for us.

When our parents taught us right from wrong, they were not being unkind to us, they taught us these things because they loved us and wanted us to stay away from things that would harm us. I believe God does the same when He gives us commandments to follow, and our love for God is given with our obedience to them just as we obeyed our parents because we loved them and trusted them.

Jesus Christ was obedient to His Father and was sinless, we must try to do the same, shouldn’t we?

 

[graciew]

I, too, thank you for that post. It helps a lot.

You are welcome,Ksu!

 

[JosieN]

Obviously I disagree with your definition, as does the Church. Gay individuals are not a “sin” to be hated, the Church dogma is that the sexual acts are a sin just as it is the exact sin if straight individuals participate in anal sex, whether married or not.

If what you say is correct, then a lesbian relationship would not be sinful, and yet we know it is, so it is not the sexual act alone but also the relationship itself. Many people today say this type of relationship is normal and natural, but this does not appear to be true when we compare it to God’s other creatures, just look at the birds, cats, dogs, and most animals, they do not mate with the same sex.

Many say it is love that matters most and not the sex of the person, then what happens when one loves their sister, aunt, dog etc.? How can anyone argue this relationship is wrong then if love is what matters?

God’s plan for creation was for males and females to mate and bring life into the world through procreation. Making our own rules and laws regarding this most basic fact is what makes homosexuality sinful, the sexual act itself just makes it an abomination.

 

[pnewton]

What do you mean when you say the law of love is Christianity?

From Galatians 5.

"You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

This is what I referred to.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Originally Posted by KSU
Catholicism 101: Love the sinner, hate the sin. ** Homosexuality** is a sin to be hated.

You changed the word “Homosexuality” into “Gay individuals” , thus creating a straw man and ending any chance at on-topic debate.

If, however, you are attempting to stay on topic by implying that it is an example of legalism to say homosexuality is a sin, please just say so.

“Homosexual acts” is the preferred manner of speaking. It avoids confusion, as the CCC defines homosexuality as the person and/or the act. Simply saying homosexual act instead of homosexuality can keep everyone on topic.

 

[pnewton]

“Homosexual acts” is the preferred manner of speaking. It avoids confusion, as the CCC defines homosexuality as the person and/or the act. Simply saying homosexual act instead of homosexuality can keep everyone on topic.

The term used was “homosexuality”. It can properly be defined as a sin, as one can say “adultery” instead of “adulterous acts”.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

The term used was “homosexuality”. It can properly be defined as a sin, as one can say “adultery” instead of “adulterous acts”.

Homosexuality can also be properly defined as the state of being attracted to people of the same sex; attraction is not a sin.

If you still hold to a position of using the word ‘homosexuality’ rather than ‘homosexual acts’ to define sex between two males or two females, then what position do you hold in regards to the term ‘heterosexuality’? Is heterosexuality a sin or not?

 

[pnewton]

Homosexuality can also be properly defined as the state of being attracted to people of the same sex; attraction is not a sin.

Yes, it can be. One must use the context, if the term is not specifically defined. That is how I knew what the other poster meant. If in doubt, it is best to take the definition that is consistent with Catholic teaching.

As to the rest, I do not make a “position” out of such things as definitions.

 

[kozlosap]

Originally Posted by KSU
Catholicism 101: Love the sinner, hate the sin. ** Homosexuality** is a sin to be hated.

You changed the word “Homosexuality” into “Gay individuals” , thus creating a straw man and ending any chance at on-topic debate.

If, however, you are attempting to stay on topic by implying that it is an example of legalism to say homosexuality is a sin, please just say so.

I’m sorry that I chose to use gay and straight. I surely had no intention of developing a straw man argument. I use the terminology used in 2016, not 1950. Maybe you can explain the difference between the term homosexuals v gay individuals? Yes, if you think of anyone as an individual instead of a nebulous group, it makes it much harder to discriminate without feeling some guilt or remorse.

 

[zz912]

Come on, don’t be silly. That’s a Catholic version of “Jesus disagrees with you”.

No matter what version you think it is, the Church disagrees with you. The Church EXPLICITLY says that the Ten Commandments are binding on us. You are claiming they are not. Your opinion is contrary to the teaching of the Church.

The sentence before you quoted says, "the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations. " They are immutable. Yet you know the funny thing. The Catholic Church does not teach us that we must rest and observe Saturday as the Lord’s Holy Day. This fact alone must surely give a clue to any reasonable person that something else is going on.

A reasonable person, having a question about the sabbath, would continue reading the CCC and look to the section on the 3rd Commandment. It answers this very question. It states that the New Covenant fulfills the Old, and the Lord’s Day fulfills the Sabbath, and worship and rest requirements have been transferred to the Lord’s Day. The 3rd Commandment is still in force.

II. THE LORD’S DAY

This is the day which the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.103
The day of the Resurrection: the new creation

2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the “first day,” the day of Christ’s Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the “eighth day” following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ’s Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord’s Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:

We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.106
Sunday - fulfillment of the sabbath

2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ’s Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man’s eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107

Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord’s Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108

So, those who are defending Catholic legalism, do you stay at home and avoid all travel, work and activity every Saturday? If not, it is worth exploring why you do not.

Following the 10 Commandments is not legalism and anyone who claims such is stating something false. And the Church has moved the requirements for worship and rest to Sunday with the authority given her by God. So Christians are under no requirement to abide by your faulty opinion.

 

[pnewton]

No matter what version you think it is, the Church disagrees with you. The Church EXPLICITLY says that the Ten Commandments are binding on us. You are claiming they are not. Your opinion is contrary to the teaching of the Church.

No. Your opinion is that it is. It is an opinion I totally reject, consider an insult, and am angered by.

I am done.