For Pope Francis, legalism makes Christians stupid. [CNA]

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1Lord1Faith said:
A sin against charity is a sin against God, which is much worse than a sin of the flesh.
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Can you tell me the teaching either in Bible verse or the CCC this came from? This is the first time I have heard this teaching.
 
OraLabora said:
Homosexuality is not a sin, it is a condition. The sins are homosexual acts, which are sodomy of one form or another, and are just as sinful whether they are done by homosexuals or heterosexuals. A homosexual who never acts on his or her inclination is not sinning and deserves better than saying that he or she is a “sin”.
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All sexual acts, outside of natural marital relations open to life, are always objective mortal sins. That is what I was told. I guess we have a different opinion. To me that includes all homosexual relationships, not just sodomy, because it includes lesbians also. Do you think lesbians living together having sex are not sinning?
 
JosieN said:
Can you tell me the teaching either in Bible verse or the CCC this came from? This is the first time I have heard this teaching.
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2055 When someone asks him, "Which commandment in the Law is the greatest?"8 Jesus replies: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the prophets."9 The Decalogue must be interpreted in light of this twofold yet single commandment of love, the fullness of the Law:

The commandments: “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.1

According to Jean-Charles Nault, O.S.B. Abbot of Saint-Wandrille there is also a heirarchy among the seven deadly sins as well. He bases it on, or mabey gets it from Evagrious or Thomas. The fleshy ones come first: lust, gluttony. Then greed, envy and anger. Finally the spiritual sins of pride; and the worst, sloth.
 
1Lord1Faith said:
2055 When someone asks him, "Which commandment in the Law is the greatest?"8 Jesus replies: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the prophets."9 The Decalogue must be interpreted in light of this twofold yet single commandment of love, the fullness of the Law:

The commandments: “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.1

According to Jean-Charles Nault, O.S.B. Abbot of Saint-Wandrille there is also a heirarchy among the seven deadly sins as well. He bases it on, or mabey gets it from Evagrious or Thomas. The fleshy ones come first: lust, gluttony. Then greed, envy and anger. Finally the spiritual sins of pride; and the worst, sloth.
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\Here is what I found on sins of the flesh from the Bible and CCC.

From the Holy Bible, the Word of God:

Leviticus 20:13: If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.*
Romans 1:26-28: For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural,*and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.*And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct.
1 Timothy 8-11: Now we know that the law is good, if any one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,immoral persons, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

From the Catechism of* the Catholic Church:

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
 
1Lord1Faith said:
"Love the sinner, hate the sin. Homosexuality is a sin to be hated " is not a Catholic teaching. It’s something a Catholic somewhere may have said. And it belongs in the trash heap of bad ideas Catholics have had.
**It appears you are speaking from the perspective of the people in the American Catholic church’s New Ways Ministry crowd rather than from the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church in America. The two are not related. **

I know of several gay people who have the impression that they are hated by the Church. Not the act, them personally. The reason is clear. It’s because of rhetoric that rises to the level of misinterpretation.
**As a Catholic it’s your duty to correct their misunderstanding by informing them of the old Catholic teaching: “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” **

You know what the terminology is, but most do not. How does a young person with SSA feel when they hear someone say homosexuality is a sin?
They should begin to pay attention to what God wrote on their hearts, and then talk to an orthodox priest.

The priest who is your go-to guy is, IMO, irresponsible with that terminology.
Your opinion is in serious need of correction. Do yourself a big favor and do some quick research on Father John A. Hardon, S.J. Your opinion would be considered more than odd in any educated Catholic circle.

The CCC states that homosexuality can be defined as an act or as the individual. So this priest is going to hang his hat on a word [homosexuality] that is misinterpreted through out the country, and for what? so he doesn’t have to say the word “act”. Just because a priest says it does not mean it’s right.
**I have no idea how you are able to twist in that manner the clear wording of the CCC, viz:

"2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.“142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.”**
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JosieN said:
Can you tell me the teaching either in Bible verse or the CCC this came from? This is the first time I have heard this teaching.
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Josie, please look at the definition of homosexuality in the glossary of the CCC. I don’t know if it’s available online. It says homosexuality is: "Sexual attraction or orientation toward persons of the same sex and/or sexual acts between persons of the same sex. "

Paragraph 2357 says, “Homosexuality refers to…”. It’s not a definition per se.
 
JosieN said:
Can you tell me the teaching either in Bible verse or the CCC this came from? This is the first time I have heard this teaching.
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CCC (compendium):
  1. What is charity?
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1822-1829
1844
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Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God. Jesus makes charity the new commandment, the fullness of the law. “It is the bond of perfection” (Colossians 3:14) and the foundation of the other virtues to which it gives life, inspiration, and order. Without charity “I am nothing” and “I gain nothing” (1 Corinthians 13:1-3).
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From the CCC itself:
1826 “If I . . . have not charity,” says the Apostle, “I am nothing.” Whatever my privilege, service, or even virtue, "if I . . . have not charity, I gain nothing."103 Charity is superior to all the virtues. It is the first of the theological virtues: “So faith, hope, charity abide, these three. But the greatest of these is charity.”
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1Lord1Faith said:
2055 When someone asks him, "Which commandment in the Law is the greatest?"8 Jesus replies: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the prophets."9 The Decalogue must be interpreted in light of this twofold yet single commandment of love, the fullness of the Law:

The commandments: “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.1

According to Jean-Charles Nault, O.S.B. Abbot of Saint-Wandrille there is also a heirarchy among the seven deadly sins as well. He bases it on, or mabey gets it from Evagrious or Thomas. The fleshy ones come first: lust, gluttony. Then greed, envy and anger. Finally the spiritual sins of pride; and the worst, sloth.
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I would put my money on what Abbot Nault says. As it happens, I have met him and have done a retreat at Saint-Wandrille. Saint-Wandrille is the abbey that founded the one I’m attached to as oblate. Abbot Nault is a holy and eminently orthodox man.
 
In paragraph 2357 of the CCC, the word “relations” is not referring to sex. Further in the paragraph, the phrase “homosexual acts” is used, thus clarifying the issue.
 
JosieN, we at the same time found it necessary to quote 2357 of the CCC to stop the nonsense as to what it actually says.

It probably will do no good;)
 
OraLabora said:
I would put my money on what Abbot Nault says. As it happens, I have met him and have done a retreat at Saint-Wandrille. Saint-Wandrille is the abbey that founded the one I’m attached to as oblate. Abbot Nault is a holy and eminently orthodox man.
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Awesome! His book, “The Noonday Devil” was a huge eye opener for me.
 
1Lord1Faith said:
In paragraph 2357 of the CCC, the word “relations” is not referring to sex. Further in the paragraph, the phrase “homosexual acts” is used, thus clarifying the issue.
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I get your first point but which homosexual acts are you talking about, and how does this clarify the issue? Is a lesbian sinning when she having sex with her mate, or does it only in your opinion mean sodomy is a sin? You are going in circles to avoid the truth which is that all sexual acts, outside of natural marital relations open to life, are always objective mortal sins, (or as you say are grave matter), I do not see the difference as both grave matter and mortals sins offend God.
 
JosieN said:
I get your first point but which homosexual acts are you talking about, and how does this clarify the issue? Is a lesbian sinning when she having sex with her mate, or does it only in your opinion mean sodomy is a sin? You are going in circles to avoid the truth which is that all sexual acts, outside of natural marital relations open to life, are always objective mortal sins, (or as you say are grave matter), I do not see the difference as both grave matter and mortals sins offend God.
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This has been explained to you already. I and others have cited sources to correct you, and you sill insist you are right. Are you actually reading the sources I’m citing? You don’t even understand the paragraphs in the CCC that you are citing. Why don’t you provide a source from the CCC for your bolded statement?

The irony here is that you go on and on, despite correction from a Benedictine oblate, about calling homosexuality a sin, which is incorrect and uncharitable. And in the same post furrow your brow about me and others not telling homosexuals that they are sinners. You will not accept Church teaching on homosexuality and charity, but you will criticize homosexuals for not accepting Church teaching.
 
1Lord1Faith said:
This has been explained to you already. I and others have cited sources to correct you, and you sill insist you are right. Are you actually reading the sources I’m citing? You don’t even understand the paragraphs in the CCC that you are citing. Why don’t you provide a source from the CCC for your bolded statement?

The irony here is that you go on and on, despite correction from a Benedictine oblate, about calling homosexuality a sin, which is incorrect and uncharitable. And in the same post furrow your brow about me and others not telling homosexuals that they are sinners. You will not accept Church teaching on homosexuality and charity, but you will criticize homosexuals for not accepting Church teaching.
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If I have done those things I apologize, but I do not think I did. I made a bold statement but I did not mean to be uncharitable. Can you show me where I did that?

Here is the link for the source of my bolded statement. catechism.cc/articles/homosexuality-sin.htm
 
1Lord1Faith said:
According to Jean-Charles Nault, O.S.B. Abbot of Saint-Wandrille there is also a heirarchy among the seven deadly sins as well. He bases it on, or mabey gets it from Evagrious or Thomas. The fleshy ones come first: lust, gluttony. Then greed, envy and anger. Finally the spiritual sins of pride; and the worst, sloth.
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Sloth is a worse sin than Pride??? I’ve never heard that before.
 
JosieN said:
If I have done those things I apologize, but I do not think I did. I made a bold statement but I did not mean to be uncharitable. Can you show me where I did that?

Here is the link for the source of my bolded statement. catechism.cc/articles/homosexuality-sin.htm
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That is not the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It’s a book by Ronald Conte Jr. It is not Catholic teaching. It’s a Catholics ( I presume he is Catholic) opinion.

I don’t mean you’re being uncharitable to me. I mean if you were to ever say to a homosexual, “homosexuality is a sin” or “any sexual act outside marriage is a mortal sin” both of which are not teachings of the Catholic Church.

If a person has no, or even incomplete, knowledge of Catholic teaching in regards to sexual conduct, and then has pre-marital sex because they are in love and intend to start a family, it’s not a mortal sin. Don’t ask me cite a source. Your responsible for your formation, not me.
 
Expatreprocedit said:
Sloth is a worse sin than Pride??? I’ve never heard that before.
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Sloth is an indifference to God brought by choices driven from pride or brought on by despair caused by the other seven deadly sins. They all point to sloth.
 
1Lord1Faith said:
That is not the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It’s a book by Ronald Conte Jr. It is not Catholic teaching. It’s a Catholics ( I presume he is Catholic) opinion.

I don’t mean you’re being uncharitable to me. I mean if you were to ever say to a homosexual, “homosexuality is a sin” or “any sexual act outside marriage is a mortal sin” both of which are not teachings of the Catholic Church.

If a person has no, or even incomplete, knowledge of Catholic teaching in regards to sexual conduct, and then has pre-marital sex because they are in love and intend to start a family, it’s not a mortal sin. Don’t ask me cite a source. Your responsible for your formation, not me.
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You are saying that according to Church teachings homosexual sex is a sin, but not homosexuality, think that is what you mean, and sexual acts outside of marriage are not a mortal sin, because this is not a teaching of the Catholic Church?

I think Ronald Conte Jr. explains the CCC teachings very well. I hope others will read it. catechism.cc/articles/homosexuality-sin.htm
 
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