For Pope Francis, legalism makes Christians stupid. [CNA]

[EIF5A]

So the question is, “What is sufficiently deliberate?”

 

[JosieN]

So the question is, “What is sufficiently deliberate?”

I think it means to deliberately do the sin when they know it is against God’s laws. It is then a personal choice. It could be because they refuse to believe in the gravity of the sin or reject the teachings, or do it out of weakness. What do you think it means?

 

[EIF5A]

I admire your honesty and courage. You have a heavy cross to bear. God Bless You.

Being gay/SSA is a minor inconvenience compared to my impatience and pride – now those are things that are really difficult to handle.

 

[EIF5A]

I would think it means that they know it is a sin but deliberately do the sin anyway. It is then a personal choice. It could be because they refuse to believe in the gravity of the sin or reject the teachings, or do it out of weakness. What do you think it means?

Too complicated for my mind. I just hope that people can at least conceive of the possibility of absolute moral laws. There needs to be a starting point somewhere. These days, the law is “I’m not hurting anyone, I’ll do what I want.”

Secular humanism, well, there’s no absolute anything there.

But I find it more difficult to talk with Christians who are pro-gay “rights”. It’s an odd blend of religion and humanism.

 

[JosieN]

Being gay/SSA is a minor inconvenience compared to my impatience and pride – now those are things that are really difficult to handle.

I think impatience is problematic for me also. Dealing with my anger is also a challenge.

 

[OraLabora]

Here is what Saint Felix III said about those who suppress the truth.

"Not to oppose is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it; and indeed to neglect to confound men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them."

I hope I’m reading you wrong but you seem to be saying that Saint John Paul II, in his catechism, has attempted to suppress the Truth.

When he promulgated the Catechism, he was doing so with the authority coming from the chair of St. Peter.

I think it is pointless for us to attempt further dialogue.

 

[JosieN]

I hope I’m reading you wrong but you seem to be saying that Saint John Paul II, in his catechism, has attempted to suppress the Truth.

When he promulgated the Catechism, he was doing so with the authority coming from the chair of St. Peter.

I think it is pointless for us to attempt further dialogue.

Pope Felix III (died 3 January 492) was Pope from 13 March 483 to his death in 492.

 

[goout]

Pope Felix III (died 3 January 492) was Pope from 13 March 483 to his death in 492.

The Church is alive now and the catechism is the current sure norm for understanding the faith.

 

[OraLabora]

The Church is alive now and the catechism is the current sure norm for understanding the faith.

 

[JosieN]

The Church is alive now and the catechism is the current sure norm for understanding the faith.

“More Souls Go To HELL Because Of The Sins Of The Flesh Than For Any Other Reason.”: Our Lady Of Fatima’s Message To The World.

Our Lady of Fatima gave us a warning. How many souls will be lost because we did not listen to her?

 

[OraLabora]

“More Souls Go To HELL Because Of The Sins Of The Flesh Than For Any Other Reason.”: Our Lady Of Fatima’s Message To The World.

Our Lady of Fatima gave us a warning. How many souls will be lost because we did not listen to her?

Which also include gluttony, drunkenness, etc. These are all a desecration of our God-given bodies. Something to think about when one polishes off a giant bag of potato chips in one sitting

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I really wish people who understand why their “lifestyle” is not accepted. It’s not because of “homophobia” although I’m sure there are people who do hate simply because they are gay.

Everything has purpose and order as designed by a Creator, who has established what is right and wrong in His created world.

If a gay couple sat in the pews and no one knew they were a couple and did not engage in public displays of affection, no one would care.

As a gay person myself who is bound by the teachings of the Church, there are moments of extreme resentment and unfairness, to the point of hatred — the burden of secrecy, knowing that people will be thoroughly disappointed with you, shame.

But our existence on earth is not the end – just a pitstop – even a valley of sorrows and tears that everyone suffers – with eventual hope of joy. Even Oscar Wilde and his male companion became converts at the end of their lives.

Interesting, but I was recently in a Catholic church for the Sunday family mass. There were a number of families (5 or 6) that were headed by gays and lesbians. I asked my hosts about it, and was told that they were an ‘inclusive’ parish and welcomed same sex couples and especially those with children.

I know that in San Francisco we have many couples in parishes but it was nice to see this outside of the bubble I live in.

The reality is that gay marriage is legal in the US and there are many families that are a part of our churches. Welcome them or not, it is up to you. I like knowing that all of Christ’s brothers and sisters are welcome.

 

[EIF5A]

Interesting, but I was recently in a Catholic church for the Sunday family mass. There were a number of families (5 or 6) that were headed by gays and lesbians. I asked my hosts about it, and was told that they were an ‘inclusive’ parish and welcomed same sex couples and especially those with children.

I know that in San Francisco we have many couples in parishes but it was nice to see this outside of the bubble I live in.

The reality is that gay marriage is legal in the US and there are many families that are a part of our churches. Welcome them or not, it is up to you. I like knowing that all of Christ’s brothers and sisters are welcome.

I guess the “Go and sin no more” part is conveniently ignored.

Do they take Communion?

I cannot welcome them as if there is nothing wrong without ignoring God’s law.

Moral law established by God vs. Human ignorance and corruption. Hmm.

 

[kyrie03]

How this thread got hijacked into talking about whether or not homosexuality is by nature disordered or not or whether or not people are pointing fingers at others if they call an act mortal is ridiculous. And I apologize for having added to it. The Church has clearly taught on not only the sin of sodomy but the other “sins that cry to heaven for vengeance.” -muder, defrauding of just wages, and oppression of the poor.

St Paul wrote to the Galatians because they were being seduced by some false teachers who had been Jews, and who were attempting to oblige all Christians, even those who had been Gentiles, to observe circumcision and other ceremonies of the Mosaic law. The council in Jerusalem 4 years earlier had established Christians were exempt from the old legalisms. He teaches that it is not by the law, but by faith, that the blessings of salvation are imparted to them. (From Haydock Bible)

In the first chapter to Galatians is the warning: “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you, besides that which you have received, let him be ananthema.” (Gal 1:8) -commentary in Haydock explains -they pretend to be Christians and teach the faith, but mix in errors, and thus subvert or destroy the gospel of Christ. Ananthema is a curse St Paul pronounces upon those who do such.

Again from Haydock - St John Chrysostom commenting on those who “would pervert the gospel of Christ” (Gal 1:7) points to those pretending there wasn’t a big difference between Catholics and heretics, and were judging that heretics were not outside the Catholic Church, out of which there is no salvation -“Let them hear what St Paul says, that they have destroyed the gospel who made any such innovations,”

Pope Francis, in saying that legalism makes Christians stupid, is probably talking about those Christians who still believe we need to observe the Mosaic law.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I cannot welcome them as if there is nothing wrong without ignoring God’s law.
.

That’s too bad. I understand the teachings in the Gospels as to welcome each other as God’s children. All of us.

 

[kyrie03]

While I agree with your point, where speaking of objective reality back fires, this first question is easily answered, depending on what you mean by “above”. It is in fact the whole point of the Gospel reading on which Pope Francis spoke. One finds the that the charity “above” the law in the teaching of Jesus, where he spoke the greatest commandment was that of love. It is found in the writings of Paul where he spoke that of all that there is, only faith, hope and charity remain forever, and that charity was the greatest of all.

Ideally, charity is never in conflict with “the law”. Charity is never in conflict with the moral law. It might on occasion conflict with Canon Law. Pope Francis addressed this very issue in his last pastoral letter. He said:

and

Again, I am addressing the homily and the Scripture passage. I like that you asked for the definition of charity, as that encompasses more than emotion. “Love” too easily evokes the emotional needs, and neglects the spiritual needs. This is a serious and fatal reversal of priorities. True love can hurt, but must always meet the criteria that Paul set:

People poke fun at being “nice”, but if you leave the path of kindness and patience, you have left the path of love.

In reading through Galatians where Paul speaks of law - it is very clear that he is speaking of the Mosaic law (not natural, divine, moral, etc…)

But when Cephas was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that some came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them who were of the circumcision. And to his dissimulation the rest of the Jews consented, so that Barnabas also was led by them into that dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly unto the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all: If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of the Gentiles, and not as the Jews do, how dost thou compel the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We by nature are Jews, and not of the Gentiles sinners.
But knowing that man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ; we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if while we seek to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners; is Christ then the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build up again the things which I have destroyed, I make myself a prevaricator. For I, through the law, am dead to the law, that I may live to God: with Christ I am nailed to the cross. And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me.
I cast not away the grace of God. For if justice be by the law, then Christ died in vain. (Gal 2:11-21

The law to which Paul had been attached had passed away. Now he was united to Christ and his cross. St Paul speaks exclusively of the ceremonial law, not the moral law contained in the Decalogue - because he says in Romans 2:13 “the doers of the law shall be justified.” -this is interpretation in Haydock Bible

 

[Rosebud77]

That’s too bad. I understand the teachings in the Gospels as to welcome each other as God’s children. All of us.

so? Can you wholeheartedly welcome at mass and for communion there, and think carefully please,someone who does not recognise or accept t that they are wilfully and knowingly committing a sin, ie no penitience and no intention of changing… that they do not see their way of life as sinful…

It is very very difficult indeed but there is a line here… I left the Anglicn church for their interpetation of “inclusive” a soclal church with much good in it but , thus far and no further…

I know gays and treat them no differently .Enjoy their company and working alongside… THAT is acceptance,

scuse typos, cold!

 

[Rosebud77]

Returning to the thread!

I was reading some of it last evening…had to stop but thought deeply in the night.

For me the difference between legalism and, yes, mercy , is epitomised in Jesus being appealed to re rhe woman caught in adultery Asking should they stone her as the law prescibed

had He, our Teacher and Lord, been legalsitic, yes…i

But He simply said no.“GO and sin no more”

No follow up to ensure she did, Just mercy, unconditional and pure

I have abandoned threads here as what I see is legalism, No mercy,
Legalism that insists the letter of the law be adhered to regardless of the pain it causes, regardless of th lack of mercy to our humanity

referring especially to the contraception as sin thread,

I was chatting today with a dear friend of around my age ( heading for 80) who was raised here in Ireland

Her grandmother had 22 babies, She was not “all right”

An aunt had 12, another aunt had a symphisiotomy without her consent as did many women here… it left her barely able to walk and permanently incontinent and she had no more babies

There was no mercy…just legalism. rules imposed…

My friend says how can we expect else when these strict rules are written by celibate men…

On that thread there was no mercy. Yes there was legalism… total insensitive adherence to rules

Jesus did not have the woman stoned to death. He showed mercy .

Incdientally the daughters of that 22 birth grandmother only had one child each.

The same words keep echoing in my heart. "In Thy wrath remember mercy "

Always a huge difference between male adnd female ideas on this, Jesus bridged that

 

[KSU]

Pope Francis, in saying that legalism makes Christians stupid, is probably talking about those Christians who still believe we need to observe the Mosaic law.

Oh, how I wish that were true, but good Pope Francis is all about margins and pushing the envelope in order to emphasize his prudential judgments about God’s limitless mercy–even at the expense of clarity. This thread is an example of the guessing games that result.

My guess is that he saw Galatians 3:1-5 as an opportunity to attack “rigidity” in order to support his thoughts in Chapter 8 of Amoris Laetitia.

 

[pnewton]

In reading through Galatians where Paul speaks of law - it is very clear that he is speaking of the Mosaic law (not natural, divine, moral, etc…)

Absolutely he was. The Ten Commandments are the foundation of the Mosaic Law, by the way. He also was speaking to the Galatians, not Catholics. This is all true. Yet even Catholics should read it. The principle remains the same. The Mosaic Law came from the mouth of God. Exodus 20:22 (right after the Ten Commandments) reads, "Then the Lord said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites this: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven,’ " and is followed by more commandments. No, I do not believe that the teaching of Paul here applies strictly to the Mosaic ceremonial law. If it had, there would be no purpose in having it as part of the canon of Scripture, as that issue had been passe by the Council of Carthage. Besides, I point to the very point of this thread. The Holy Father made the same application. One can never be too far from the Church sticking with the boss.

Pope Francis, in saying that legalism makes Christians stupid, is probably talking about those Christians who still believe we need to observe the Mosaic law.

If you really believe that he was addressing Judaizers (I do not even know that any exist), I,…
I…
:shrug:I don’t know how to respond to that.

Ah, Let me go back to the very start of his papacy. He came out in simple vestment, bowed and asked the people to give him a blessing first, before he blessed others. He warned in his last letter not to take all situations as fitting in a canonical category. I think he has made clear his opinion of the subservience of all man-made laws and rules to the law of charity. Now nothing the pope says should be taken as lessening of the moral law. Absolute wrong is still absolute wrong, objectively speaking. The Pope has also made this clear. I grant that many in the media miss this point.