For Pope Francis, legalism makes Christians stupid. [CNA]

[KSU]

I didn’t say I supported it. I said it happened as a backlash against the Church, among other things. What I do support is Vatican II and the Church view on natural and licit means of spacing births. Unfortunately that view was not held by the clergy of the time, and the people, in their own way, revolted.

Fair enough, if that was your experience, but my Catholic, fiercely independent-minded friends and your friends in Quebec must have been poles apart in their religious views. If an angel himself had even hinted at denying the sacraments to my friends in Quebec because they spaced their children, there would have been a real revolution in the Church!

In the late fifties, early sixties, my U.S. buddies and I liked to take week-long fishing trips to a particular lodge in Canada, partly because one of my buddies had a crush on a woman guest he had met there. The rest of us had steady girlfriends; we were in our early twenties, educated and thought we knew everything about Canada…

Soon we became trusted friends with the couple who owned the lodge, to the point that we were asked to run the place while the owners would escape for an evening in town. They would leave their 16-year-old daughter in our care.

After a while, the owners sheepishly asked one of us “Yanks” if we were gay because we never made a move on their young daughter!!

That was the first of a few other matters which made it clear that Canada had become so secularized that it became foreign to us.

 

[OraLabora]

Fair enough, if that was your experience, but my Catholic, fiercely independent-minded friends and your friends in Quebec must have been poles apart in their religious views. If an angel himself had even hinted at denying the sacraments to my friends in Quebec because they spaced their children, there would have been a real revolution in the Church!

In the late fifties, early sixties, my U.S. buddies and I liked to take week-long fishing trips to a particular lodge in Canada, partly because one of my buddies had a crush on a woman guest he had met there. The rest of us had steady girlfriends; we were in our early twenties, educated and thought we knew everything about Canada…

Soon we became trusted friends with the couple who owned the lodge, to the point that we were asked to run the place while the owners would escape for an evening in town. They would leave their 16-year-old daughter in our care.

After a while, the owners sheepishly asked one of us “Yanks” if we were gay because we never made a move on their young daughter!!

That was the first of a few other matters which made it clear that Canada had become so secularized that it became foreign to us.

Well, I am French-Canadian and was brought up in that milieu. My mother married very late because she cared for her sick parents, so only had two children, one naturally, who died at age 18 months of a rare childhood cancer, and me, adopted when she was 40.

My generation is the last of the really big families though, and most of my friends were from huge families, or if not themselves, their grandparents had huge families. It was considered an obligation. Part of the reason was that the clergy were also very nationalistic and were trying to beef up the Catholic population against the anglo (read: Protestant) hordes. The Loyal Orange Order was alive and well, especially in nearby Ontario.

I find that when religion mixes with politics, it’s never a happy result.

In any case the problems are behind us now, Catholics that are in the pews are there mostly because they want to be, and the clergy are much less clerical now. Perhaps in fact the pendulum (in the clergy) has swung too far in fact. But I would never want to go back to the way things were.

 

[Rau]

None. But a more responsible approach to procreation might have allowed the poor woman to space out births and bear a more reasonable number of children. As it was, 22 kids from the same woman isn’t “pro-life”, it is abuse pure and simple. There are moral and licit ways to space pregnancies to a more human level that dont force a family into poverty.

We should note that the earlier poster who raised this case offered no reason for the large number of kids.

Both Ireland and Quebec fell to the same errors of Jansenism and clericalism in the same era. Priests would deny absolution to women who weren’t either pregnant or nursing.

I believe there is truth in that. Jansenism (mainly a movement in France) was generally in conflict with Catholic teaching. Certainly Innocent X (1653) and Clement XI (1713) condemned it. I assume the reference to Jansenism is not so much literal, but rather taking the view that certain prevalent attitudes in Ireleand/Quebec were reminiscent of, or influenced by, Jansenism’s take on moral purity? And the reference to “clericalism” - I assume by this you mean that various clerics took it upon themselves to require things of the people (in the moral domain) which arose from the cleric’s own opinions (potentially influenced by Jansenism), not what the Church taught.

I don’t recall ever reading in Scripture where Jesus said women should bear 22 children. Her point is well-taken though, concerning the clergy of the era, who were imperfect humans and committed many errors in that period, of which borderline Jansenism and rampant clericalism led to such abuses.

Are there available references to what clerics (of some authority) were actually saying that made people feel compelled to seek unending sequences of births? It would be interesting to know what was on the minds of the mother of 22 and her husband, or for that matter, what was on the minds of any of the people listed here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_the_most_children

 

[OraLabora]

We should note that the earlier poster who raised this case offered no reason for the large number of kids.

I believe there is truth in that. Jansenism (mainly a movement in France) was generally in conflict with Catholic teaching. Certainly Innocent X (1653) and Clement XI (1713) condemned it. I assume the reference to Jansenism is not so much literal, but rather taking the view that certain prevalent attitudes in Ireleand/Quebec were reminiscent of, or influenced by, Jansenism’s take on moral purity? And the reference to “clericalism” - I assume by this you mean that various clerics took it upon themselves to require things of the people (in the moral domain) which arose from the cleric’s own opinions (potentially influenced by Jansenism), not what the Church taught.

Are there available references to what clerics (of some authority) were actually saying that made people feel compelled to seek unending sequences of births? It would be interesting to know what was on the minds of the mother of 22 and her husband, or for that matter, what was on the minds of any of the people listed here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_the_most_children

I think 22 kids is very exceptional, but around here, 10-12 was very common; 15 was getting out into the far reaches of the bell curve, and 22 was surely an outlier, but not unheard of.

There are stories, whether true or not, of sympathetic doctors being very loose with deciding a woman needed a hysterectomy when he felt she had done enough, but those are anecdotal or perhaps apocryphal.

As for Jansenism, I think it is safe to say that it heavily influenced our clergy; whether they were outright in heresy or not is unclear, but it was running rampant in France right around the time Quebec was colonized by France, and of course communications with the colonies in those days was sporadic and unreliable, so no doubt many of those influences carried on. And yes you’re quite right about my interpretation of clericalism. Clerics, and their views of things influenced by Jansenism, held great power in Quebec up until the the Quiet Revolution, which coincided very closely with the time of Vatican II. A similar movement to Jansenism in Quebec was Lacouturisme, it is less known, but had many similar concepts. I have some sketchy info on that from the archives of our abbey, where one of the early priors fell into its influence.

Why Ireland was so similar to Quebec, I’m not quite sure but the parallels are striking.

 

[zz912]

You are way off base. These women in Quebec were denied the sacraments if they didn’t comply. That is not being “open to life”.

I happen to live in Quebec. I’m 58 years old and have met many women who were in this situation. 10 + children was the norm. Most were poor and couldn’t afford to educate their families, or could only send their brightest child to higher education, and most didn’t even complete secondary school.

The total fertility rate for Canada for the last century was never over 4.0. Which means even at its peak, the average Canadian woman had slightly under 4 children.

Please cite some evidence for 10+ children being the norm.

statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-630-x/11-630-x2014002-eng.htm

 

[OraLabora]

The total fertility rate for Canada for the last century was never over 4.0. Which means even at its peak, the average Canadian woman had slightly under 4 children.

Please cite some evidence for 10+ children being the norm.

statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-630-x/11-630-x2014002-eng.htm

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-630-x/2014002/c-g/c-g01-eng.gif

First of all you can’t use a Canada-wide chart for Quebec. Secondly I said “very common”, not “the norm”. Thirdly, the really large families were mostly a rural phenomenon. Quebec demographics are considerably different from the rest of Canada, being at the time roughly 90% Catholic and French-speaking.

What can I say? I live here, met many of these women, and went to school with their kids and grandkids. My wife still has many, all now elderly, in her medical practice.

 

[kozlosap]

This is a fascinating part of history that I had no idea about. Was this phenomenon taking place in other parts of the Catholic world too, especially in France? In some ways the parish priests refusing absolution to women who weren’t pregnant or nursing reminds me of Padre Pio refusing to hear the confessions of women who were not dressed to his rules. If any posters know of any articles or books about this time period in Quebec, could you please post the titles. Thanks!

 

[EIF5A]

This is a fascinating part of history that I had no idea about. Was this phenomenon taking place in other parts of the Catholic world too, especially in France? In some ways the parish priests refusing absolution to women who weren’t pregnant or nursing reminds me of Padre Pio refusing to hear the confessions of women who were not dressed to his rules. If any posters know of any articles or books about this time period in Quebec, could you please post the titles. Thanks!

[emphasis added]

What…? Was this ever common?

 

[KSU]

[emphasis added]

What…? Was this ever common?

You are correct; it of course was never common. I don’t believe my friends in Quebec would have remained silent had it occurred enough to come to their attention.

Nor do I share kozlosap’s opinion that “This is a fascinating part of Quebec history”.

 

[OraLabora]

[emphasis added]

What…? Was this ever common?

Common enough to be mentioned as such in a book by a priest (albeit from France). I read it a few weeks ago (in French) but alas in a senior moment I can’t remember the title. I work at the abbey’s library once a week as assistant to the librarian (volunteer job!), and it was one that came under my nose that I thought was interesting so the monk who is the main librarian let me borrow it.

I know in Quebec that the annual home visit by the pastor was focused a lot on the reproductive status of the family. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence about this. I’d research the whole Quebec large family thing for you guys but I’m heading to Rome in 3 days and am a bit pressed for time.

 

[KSU]

…I’m heading to Rome in 3 days and am a bit pressed for time.

Bon voyage, OraLabora. When you get to Rome, please pick up a copy, in the language actually used by Pope Francis, of his OP statement about “the stupidities of a legalistic faith”.

He probably spoke in Spanish or Italian, so it will be easy to translate into English. I can’t bring myself to believe he used the pejoratives “stupidities” and “stupid”. The early scriptures use the terms “senseless”, “foolish” or “irrational.”

The Vatican’s Press Office, on the other hand, is quite capable of changing the words into the English “stupidities” and “stupid”.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Common enough to be mentioned as such in a book by a priest (albeit from France). I read it a few weeks ago (in French) but alas in a senior moment I can’t remember the title. I work at the abbey’s library once a week as assistant to the librarian (volunteer job!), and it was one that came under my nose that I thought was interesting so the monk who is the main librarian let me borrow it.

I know in Quebec that the annual home visit by the pastor was focused a lot on the reproductive status of the family. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence about this. I’d research the whole Quebec large family thing for you guys but I’m heading to Rome in 3 days and am a bit pressed for time.

Your abbey is such a remarkable place. The esteem I have for it defies words.

The particular assignment I held, over a span of years, took me many times to Quebec.

I will never forget the experience.

I was profoundly touched by the people in a very special way.

I was deeply impressed by the evident influence of Catholic culture on the province.

You have some of the most remarkable figures in Church history…Marguerite Bourgeoys and Marguerite d’Youville in Montreal as well as Marie de l’Incarnation and Catherine de St-Augustin in Quebec City

Who, of course, could not be touched and won by the First Nations woman, Tekakwitha. Knowing the story from Cardinal Leger concerning the Mission Saint Francois-Xavier and the role this small church played in the interventions of Sacrosanctum Concilium, made spending a day there so important to me.

The plight of the incredible Religious women who were fighting to make a difference in the face of so much oppression – Eulalie du Rocher…Anne Blondin…Émilie Tavernier Gamelin…Élisabeth Turgeon…Marie-Leonie Paradis.

I remember also quite vividly Andre Bessette. In each, one gained remarkable insight into the conflicts and, frankly, horrors in the Quebec Church history, from its beginning but especially in the 19th and 20th century.

I must confess that I was really not prepared to confront how truly horrible was what I would come face to face with – and that is said by one immersed in the history of horrors that had been perpetrated in the name of Catholicism on the continent. The apologies of the Blessed Pope Paul VI, Pope Saint John Paul II, and Pope Francis are an excellent beginning…with an emphasis on beginning…

In the face of incredible individuals who became great saints and who accomplished much good within the Church in Quebec…there were indescribable policies and attitudes that set up a dysfunctional system of horrific and abusive oppression.

One came away from confronting these realities, with human faces behind each instance, profoundly shaken by what had been perpetrated in the name of the Catholic faith in Quebec – but which had done incalculable harm to so many people and families on so many levels. There really are no words

And, at that time, I was meeting with victims of this systematic nightmare they had lived through in the decades before. I knew then that I shall live with those memories of what I saw and heard until my dying day

I grieved for the people whom the Church so afflicted and literally drove from her bosom. It defies words but it is a story the world ought to know and needs to know…as the Church confronts the ugliness of the past.

As Pope Saint John Paul II and Pope Francis have rightly called for…there are sins that must be confessed with weeping in the public square by the Catholics of today who bemoan and declaim the tragedies of yesterday.

I hope the Church at some point can again become an important reality in the lives of the people and the society of Quebec…but there is so much healing that will have to occur.

Far from those who say you have been too hard in what you write, you have actually been exceedingly gentle. The Church in Quebec is moribund for reason…because of what had been done. The people rebelled and abandoned when liberated from oppression.

Those part of its renewal, such as yourself, are to be praised and commended.

I wish you buon viaggio to Roma. Do have the kindness of remembering me at Sant’Anselmo – at the altar memorably consecrated by the Blessed Ildefonso Cardinal Schuster – and, of course, at Monte Cassino…I don’t make it there as often as I would wish now that I am so impeded.

Hopefully you will have the opportunity to spend quality time with the new Abbot Primate, whom you will find to be an exceptional person of superior qualities. The confederation is blessed at his election as Primate, from everything I know about him.

I wish you could be in Rome for the consistory.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Of course not, but your “Quiet Révolution” did. It turned Canada in to an anti-Catholic gulag.

You actually think Canada is an anti-Catholic Gulag?

 

[Rau]

…there were indescribable policies and attitudes that set up a dysfunctional system of horrific and abusive oppression.

One came away from confronting these realities, with human faces behind each instance, profoundly shaken by what had been perpetrated in the name of the Catholic faith in Quebec – but which had done incalculable harm to so many people and families on so many levels. There really are no words.

How can such “official waywardness” exist in one province of the country, and not be quickly brought to heel by the wider community of Canadian Bishops?

Were individual Bishops ever sanctioned at some point?

For how long did these behaviours persist?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

How can such “official waywardness” exist in one province of the country, and not be quickly brought to heel by the wider community of Canadian Bishops?

Were individual Bishops ever sanctioned at some point?

For how long did these behaviours persist?

Quebec existed as a distinct society within the Canadian confederation. That was true ecclesiastically as well as civilly.

Even today, the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops is distinct from the Assemblée des évêques catholiques du Québec, which has its own method of operation…besides these entities are the gift of Vatican II and the era of profound crisis was in the decades before the reform and renewal of the Second Vatican Council.

Yes…individual bishops were sanctioned for policies found to be too egregious; some were removed from governance.

The rules of this forum preclude their being individually named. I have every confidence OraLabora knows of whom I am speaking…as would those who are actually familiar with the history.

 

[OraLabora]

Thanks, Father, for your support and confirming what every Quebec francophone simply knows from our history, and contact with those affected. You also point out the distinction between the Church of Quebec and the other provinces. In Quebec the Church was also very homogeneous, 90% francophone, with a smattering of Irish and other ethnicities. In the other provinces, the situation was almost exactly the reverse.

The Quebec church was also highly politicized and nationalistic. The enforced high birth rate was a policy of beefing up francophone numbers against the Anglo (and largely Protestant) hordes. Complicit in this was the Union Nationale government. It is a long sorry history with the results we now know.

I myself left the Church in my late teens, and stayed out until 22 years later. I returned to a much different Church in 1997, at age 39, even compared to the mid 70s when I left.

As you can imagine, the nostalgia for the pre-conciliar years so fashionable on CAF has few takers in Quebec except among a few very conservative reactionaries. I myself, even though I love the liturgical patrimony of the Church and participate in its revival in a Gregorian schola, prefer to see it applied to the new liturgy. There is far too much pre-conciliar baggage here to want to revive old hurts. Perhaps now the local church is too liberal, but at least the people who are in it, are so for the right reasons. It will take a couple of generations more for things to heal, and a proper balance restored.

I think it can be summed as thus: the Church is not a series of rules to obey. It nurtures a set of moral truths to grow into. I think any student of Western Monasticism will understand this principle. Conversion, full assent to, and humble obedience are all steps to a lifelong process that Saint Benedict alludes to in his twelve degrees of humility. However I understand the appeal to legalism. I too fell prey to it in my zeal following re-conversion to the faith, but soon recognized it as a hindrance to true spiritual growth and full communion into the Body of Christ, and my discovery of Benedictine spirituality played a huge role in understanding this.

 

[zz912]

First of all you can’t use a Canada-wide chart for Quebec.

Then produce some evidence that the total fertility rate for Quebec was significantly greater than the rest of Canada.

Secondly I said “very common”, not “the norm”.

You are way off base. These women in Quebec were denied the sacraments if they didn’t comply. That is not being “open to life”.

I happen to live in Quebec. I’m 58 years old and have met many women who were in this situation. 10 + children was the norm. Most were poor and couldn’t afford to educate their families, or could only send their brightest child to higher education, and most didn’t even complete secondary school.

You said it. Explicitly and verbatim.

[emphasis added]

What…? Was this ever common?

You are correct; it of course was never common. I don’t believe my friends in Quebec would have remained silent had it occurred enough to come to their attention.

Nor do I share kozlosap’s opinion that “This is a fascinating part of Quebec history”.

It’s probably one of those urban legends that everyone has accepted as true and never actually investigated to see if it really was true. Perhaps there was a couple of priests who did this, but there’s no way it was widespread. It’s like the legend of the abusive Catholic school nuns that used to break knuckles and put kids in the Iron Maiden.

 

[OraLabora]

Then produce some evidence that the total fertility rate for Quebec was significantly greater than the rest of Canada.

You said it. Explicitly and verbatim.

It’s probably one of those urban legends that everyone has accepted as true and never actually investigated to see if it really was true. Perhaps there was a couple of priests who did this, but there’s no way it was widespread. It’s like the legend of the abusive Catholic school nuns that used to break knuckles and put kids in the Iron Maiden.

canpopsoc.ca/CanPopSoc/assets/File/publications/journal/CSPv30n1p193.pdf

The total fertility rate was also higher than the rest of Canada until 1960

No urban legend, but well-documented. Whatever choice of words, I have first-hand knowledge of families of 10+ children, more than I can count. At the funeral home for one of my wife’s colleagues a couple of months ago, I was chatting with a retired nurse who was one of 12 children. I asked my wife about these women in her medical practice, and she said they are all now dead, and in her experience most died in their 60s, “worn out” as she put it.

 

[dans0622]

Bon voyage, OraLabora. When you get to Rome, please pick up a copy, in the language actually used by Pope Francis, of his OP statement about “the stupidities of a legalistic faith”.

He probably spoke in Spanish or Italian, so it will be easy to translate into English. I can’t bring myself to believe he used the pejoratives “stupidities” and “stupid”. The early scriptures use the terms “senseless”, “foolish” or “irrational.”

The Vatican’s Press Office, on the other hand, is quite capable of changing the words into the English “stupidities” and “stupid”.

According to the Italian excerpts of the homily, he used the word “stolti.” According to my limited understanding of Italian, a more common translation would be fools, silly (people), senseless (people)… Italian has the word “stupido” which obviously corresponds to “stupid.” The Pope did not use that word.

I suppose the English commentary on his homily depended on the way the (American) version of that portion of Galatians reads (i.e., it uses the word “stupid”).

As a self-proclaimed, non-legalistic lawyer, it seems to me that the Pope is addressing the question “from where do we think salvation comes? From the law and the observance of the law, or from God (through the paschal mystery and working of the Holy Spirit)?” The answer is obvious but our behavior does not always correspond to what we know is the truth. As the Pope says, this does not mean that we do not follow the Commandments. Of course, we do and we must. Even so, obeying the law does not save us and it is not all we are called to do.

Dan

 

[dans0622]

…

No urban legend, but well-documented. Whatever choice of words, I have first-hand knowledge of families of 10+ children, more than I can count. At the funeral home for one of my wife’s colleagues a couple of months ago, I was chatting with a retired nurse who was one of 12 children. I asked my wife about these women in her medical practice, and she said they are all now dead, and in her experience most died in their 60s, “worn out” as she put it.

I do believe I understand and sympathize with the point you are making (about the misguided, damaging actions of some priests)…but as the ninth child of a woman who was told by her doctor, after her sixth, to not have any more children…and as the grandson of a couple who had 15 children…

Dan