? For Protestants and disunity

[Adamski]

When I have shared the gospel with the completely unchurched one of their first complaints goes something like

" Christianity is to confusing with all the different options"

“Christianity can’t be true because there are so many options”

For evangelizing it would seem unity would be much better

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Unity isn’t something that Catholics have either. In Catholicism, you have factions verbally warring against each other over important issues like the mass. The “unity” of Catholicism is a front that hides a divided house. The Church needs to advertise differently.

Here are just a few of the factions: liberal catholics, traditional catholics, ultramontanists, charismatic Catholics and folk Catholics who blend pagan traditions with the Catholic one.

 

[Adamski]

Unity isn’t something that Catholics have either. In Catholicism, you have factions verbally warring against each other over important issues like the mass. The “unity” of Catholicism is a front that hides a divided house. The Church needs to advertise differently.

Here are just a few of the factions: liberal catholics, traditional catholics, ultramontanists, charismatic Catholics and folk Catholics who blend pagan traditions with the Catholic one.

We have unity in teaching we know where the target is and there is one authority

 

[dronald]

We have unity in teaching we know where the target is and there is one authority

Your only agreement is that you have one authority; although the disagreements arise when no one knows what that authority teaches.

For example, Pew did a study and found that Protestants are more likely to be against gay marriage than Catholics.

So,

Pope: “Gays shouldn’t get married.”
Protestants: “Most of us agree.”
Catholics: “Less of us agree.”

However,

Pope: “I am the leader of the Church.”
Catholics: “All of us agree.”
Protestants: “None of us agree.”

 

[eazyduzit]

When I have shared the gospel with the completely unchurched one of their first complaints goes something like

" Christianity is to confusing with all the different options"

“Christianity can’t be true because there are so many options”

For evangelizing it would seem unity would be much better

When evangelizing, you need to keep the focus on Jesus. People also complain about all the hypocrites in the church. It does not change God’s promise in His word. Even if we are unfaithful, He is still faithful.

 

[Abu]

Jon Mallory #2
Unity isn’t something that Catholics have either. In Catholicism, you have factions verbally warring against each other over important issues like the mass. The “unity” of Catholicism is a front that hides a divided house.

There is the fullness of truth only in Christ’s Church, and He was betrayed by one of His own – Judas.

The four marks of Christ’s Church are She is one, holy, catholic and apostolic. Real Catholics assent to all dogma and doctrine – the Church is ‘held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy’ [Vatican II,* Lumen Gentium, art 39].

The mandate from Christ Himself with all four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.” ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

Jesus warned dissenters: “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17).

 

[spedteacherita]

When evangelizing, you need to keep the focus on Jesus. People also complain about all the hypocrites in the church. It does not change God’s promise in His word. Even if we are unfaithful, He is still faithful.

This was my thought, as well, when read the OP. Instead of focusing on all the differences out there, share that Jesus is the focal point around which these churches agree. His suffering, death and ultimately the Resurrection is the main thread throughout the Bible. Once that is clear then it should be fairly easy to begin to talk about your church.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Real Catholics assent to all dogma and doctrine – the Church is ‘held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy’

So there are “fake Catholics” and there are “real Catholics”. I’m assuming you can’t always tell who is who so you tacitly assent to a kind of “invisible church” teaching, which is considered Protestant.

Also, is the Church holy because Christ makes it holy or by its own merits. I accept the teaching that the Church is holy but in what sense? If it’s the former, that’s fine but if it is the latter, then that is idolatry which virtually elevates the Church to the status of God. And I don’t think you would agree with that.

 

[MaryT777]

This was my thought, as well, when read the OP. Instead of focusing on all the differences out there, share that Jesus is the focal point around which these churches agree. His suffering, death and ultimately the Resurrection is the main thread throughout the Bible. Once that is clear then it should be fairly easy to begin to talk about your church.

Well said.
Mary

 

[KjetilK]

We have unity in teaching we know where the target is and there is one authority

Yes, there is unity in what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, including all the particular churches in communion with her. But the same can be said of just about any given Church. The Church of Norway, for instance, also have unity in teaching on this level. The teaching is found in her confessions and creeds, in her liturgy, and her Canon Law. And she is governed by her bishops.

The problem is that you seem to compare one ecclesial communion (the Roman Catholic Church, including all the particular churches in communion with her) with a whole bunch of different communions who have never claimed to be united. That is a bit like saying that England is better than Europe because in England there is only one set of laws. But England is a nation, Europe is not. With that kind of tactic you will, of course, find disunity.

I, for instance, who am a priest in the Church of Norway, am not in unity with, say, baptists. But we have never claimed to be, either. Just as you, who are a member of the Roman Catholic Church, are not in unity with, say, pentecostals. But then again you have never claimed to be.

What you need to do, however, is to take each Church separately. And you need to take the teaching of each Church, not what anyone there personally believes at any given moment, including bishops and priests. I bet you will find Roman Catholic bishops and priests who hold personal beliefs which are contrary to their Church’s teaching, yet this doesn’t constitute proof of disunity. If that is so, it cannot constitute proof of disunity in other communions either.

So this is not a ‘Protestant’ problem, whatever that means.

Note that when I say ‘communions’ I means particular churches or ‘collections’ of particular churches which are in full communion.

 

[aidanbradypop]

When I have shared the gospel with the completely unchurched one of their first complaints goes something like

" Christianity is to confusing with all the different options"

“Christianity can’t be true because there are so many options”

For evangelizing it would seem unity would be much better

When evangelizing, making Christ the focal point would be the first place I would start. I do not tell someone to become a member of Assemblies of God and then tell them about Jesus.

I believe that if someone brings up the “disunity” of Christianity, I would sat that is more of an excuse rather than a reason to stay away. Personally, if I share the Gospel with someone and they proclaim Christ as their Lord and Savior, what branch of Christianity they join is the least of my worries. I will praise God that another person has been added to His eternal family.

In my experiences, Catholics are more concerned with disunity than non Catholics. I believe that someone is saved by their faith in Jesus Christ and not by being a member of a given Church. Believing Christ paid the ultimate price for our sins is enough unity for me.

 

[GaryTaylor]

In my experiences, Catholics are more concerned with disunity than non Catholics.

I don’t understand the relationship of these two statements?

I believe that if someone brings up the “disunity” of Christianity, I would sat that is more of an excuse rather than a reason to stay away.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I don’t understand the relationship of these two statements?

Because they are statesments addressing two different things.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Because they are statesments addressing two different things.

So then by what do you mean by each if they are not mutually exclusive? They appear mutually exclusive and in contradiction? Could you elaborate?

 

[aidanbradypop]

So then by what do you mean by each if they are not mutually exclusive? They appear mutually exclusive and in contradiction? Could you elaborate?

Sure. OP was referring to the unchurched. I stated that among the churched, Catholics that I know tend to be more upset about the perceived disunity that other Christians. Someone that is unchurched or a nonbeliever will often use the “disunity” as an excuse. I always make the focus on Jesus Christ and His saving sacrifice. I then explain to them to allow the Holy Ghost to point them in the direction they need to go. I praise God if the become a Catholic, Anglican, Baptist or whatever as long as Christ is the center in their lives.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Someone that is unchurched or a nonbeliever will often use the “disunity” as an excuse. I always make the focus on Jesus Christ and His saving sacrifice. I then explain to them to allow the Holy Ghost to point them in the direction they need to go. I praise God if the become a Catholic, Anglican, Baptist or whatever as long as Christ is the center in their lives.

Perhaps it depends on which point is discussed. After the point below the question of where one should be no doubt arrives at some point. Otherwise there wouldn’t be Catholic, Anglican Baptist, Assembly of God etc.

I then explain to them to allow the Holy Ghost to point them in the direction they need to go. I praise God if the become a Catholic, Anglican, Baptist or whatever as long as Christ is the center in their lives.

So further, disunity is an issue not an excuse?

 

[aidanbradypop]

Perhaps it depends on which point is discussed. After the point below the question of where one should be no doubt arrives at some point. Otherwise there wouldn’t be Catholic, Anglican Baptist, Assembly of God etc.

" Christianity is to confusing with all the different options"

“Christianity can’t be true because there are so many options”

Those are the two points he mentioned. Those two points have nothing to do with Christianity because, IMO, those “options” are not Christianity. Believing in Christ and remaining faithful to Him is what makes one a Christian. Being a Catholic or Baptist does not make one a Christian.

So further, disunity is an issue not an excuse?

Not an issue for me. If a person truly believes in Christ as Lord and Savior, I trust that the Holy Spirit will guide that person where they need to go. Whether it is RCC or AoG makes no difference to me because I believe you can be saved in each.

 

[GaryTaylor]

" Christianity is to confusing with all the different options"

“Christianity can’t be true because there are so many options”

Those are the two points he mentioned. Those two points have nothing to do with Christianity because, IMO, those “options” are not Christianity. Believing in Christ and remaining faithful to Him is what makes one a Christian. Being a Catholic or Baptist does not make one a Christian.

Not an issue for me. If a person truly believes in Christ as Lord and Savior, I trust that the Holy Spirit will guide that person where they need to go. Whether it is RCC or AoG makes no difference to me because I believe you can be saved in each.

I hear you, its not an issue for you. But unity opposed to disunity is an issue.

You confuse the two issues of if one is saved by Christ here or there, and if unity is indeed a need. Which was my original point. Do you propose there is no need for Christian unity? If that was the case you wouldn’t be in any Church let alone where you decided to be because it was imperative for your salvation.

Same original point. So your saying the Assembly of God feels less need for Christian unity than the Catholic Church does? Or just you?

Where one is saved is “non-sequitur” to you, but is disunity and unity “non-sequitur?” No its self evident?

 

[aidanbradypop]

I hear you, its not an issue for you. But unity opposed to disunity is an issue.

You confuse the two issues of if one is saved by Christ here or there and if unity is indeed a need. Which was my original point. Do you propose there is no need for Christian unity? If that was the case you wouldn’t be in any Church,let alone where you decided to be because it was imperative for your salvation.

Same original point.

Gary,

Unity for you is every Christian under the Pope correct? That is what the Catholics I know believe. We, Christians, will be united when everyone believes what the Catholic Church teaches. That is what I hear from Catholics. So if that is unity then no I do not feel that unity is needed and I am completely satisfied with my disunity. Now if by unity you mean that we are all Christians because we believe in the saving Grace from God by way of the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins so that we can all be apart of the Kingdom of God then I am all for that unity. We are united in Christ, not a church.

That is what I would tell that unchurched person and I would pray that the Holy Ghost would take over from there

 

[GaryTaylor]

Gary,

Unity for you is every Christian under the Pope correct? That is what the Catholics I know believe. We, Christians, will be united when everyone believes what the Catholic Church teaches. That is what I hear from Catholics. So if that is unity then no I do not feel that unity is needed and I am completely satisfied with my disunity.

No by Christians unity I mean you attend a Christian Church in unity-Assembly of God who believes in unity? Which was clear last post. You attend the Assembly of God. Do you not seek salvation there in unity? Why do you attend otherwise if no unity is of need.

So I maintain.

Where one is saved is “non-sequitur” to you, but is disunity and unity “non-sequitur?” No its self evident?

Or you agree with unity of Christians as does the Church. Why do you attend Church?