For Protestants who know their "stuff"

[jmcrae]

So if this is reading correct, then we are not to judge the Catholic church by what some of its local member churches teach.

So then why is there judgement on OSAS, wine, sacraments, scripture, baptism, etc etc. Honestly some of these things are local, especially the arguing that comes out of the bible belt.

Kitty;

They are referring to the “non-denominational” churches, which do, in fact, teach Eternal Security, no infant baptism allowed, symbolic Holy Communion, etc., as articles of the faith.

Protestantism has hundreds of different groupings, all teaching different things, both officially and unofficially. What they teach unofficially, we could say, “Okay, that person made a mistake, or is a heretic even from the Protestant point of view.” But a lot of these groups actually teach this stuff officially, as part of their articles of the faith.

For example, it is now an official article of the faith in the United Church of Canada to permit homosexuals to “marry” in the church. This is not the action of a few rebels, or a few people who don’t understand the real teachings of the United Church of Canada - it’s an actual item in their official policy.

The wheels move slowly, but the RCIA catechist in the example given above is ultimately either going to be corrected, or removed from his position, and it’s obvious even to the Protestant person who is reporting this that he is not teaching according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. But there are, in fact, Protestant groups who officially teach things like “eternal security,” and the rest of the heretical nonsense.

 

[SolaFide]

I see a lot of anti-Catholic bias you have in your post. Mussolini and Hitler was condemned by Pope Pius XII. They were not practicing Catholic. They were atheistic in their philosphy. Ex-communication is meant for those Catholics who practice their faith but have become disobedient by not adhering to Church Law.

Not true! Anyone who is a baptized Catholic can be excommunicated! I checked the Catholic encyclopedia. My point still stands.

Also, the idea Pope Pius XII opposed Hitler and Mussolini in secret is poppycock! If it was in secret how do you know he opposed them?

Secondly, Paul was not ashamed of his chains for Christ. Maybe Pius wasn’t so Pius and he should’ve been more outspoken against Hitler and Mussolini then the rank and file Catholic would’ve been emboldened to stand alongside him thinking; “If our leader can take a stand, so can we or so should we.” Isn’t the average Catholic supposed to support the pope?

Did the pope think he was greater than Paul who said that he wasn’t ashamed of the cross of Christ? Paul said his chains actually advanced the gospel. Did Pius really think that he had to be there to make sure the church would stand? That’s a bit arrogant. Did he actually think that Hitler would be able to either imprison or kill the pope and the world wouldn’t notice? I don’t think so.

No, what probably drove Pius was the fear of loss of power, control and income. If I work with this monster I still get goodies. Maybe Pius was more of a greedy coward then huh?

Php 1:12 Now I want you to know, brethren, **that my circumstances have turned out for the greater progress of the gospel,
Php 1:13 so that my imprisonment in the cause of Christ has become well known throughout the whole praetorian guard and to everyone else, **
Php 1:14 **and that most of the brethren, trusting in the Lord because of my imprisonment, have far more courage to speak the word of God without fear. **

Did you notice that comment? That because of Paul’s imprisonment the brethren have far more courage to speak the word of God without fear. I guess Pius couldn’t trust God to do that with him and the church huh?

Php 1:15 Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will;
Php 1:16 the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel;
Php 1:17 the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment.
Php 1:18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice,
Php 1:19 for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
Php 1:20 according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.

 

[SolaFide]

**I may have missed something in history, but it is my understanding that Luther was not excommunicated for pointing out the problems but for teaching heresy. Once he began teaching things that were in contradiction to the teachings of the Church, it was an issue. ** Some of the things he said were correctly identified as a problem. Some of the things he taught were outright wrong. It is the wrong things that caused the excommunication. Assuming it is not automatically lifted at death, he never altered his teachings to comply with proper doctrine.

You mean once he began teaching things that were Scriptural and therefore contrary to the church.

You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to. Same difference. Six of one, half a dozen of the other, blah, blah, blah

 

[jmcrae]

Not true! Anyone who is a baptized Catholic can be excommunicated! I checked the Catholic encyclopedia. My point still stands.

Excommunication would have meant nothing to either one of them - they hadn’t been to Mass in years, and weren’t expecting any death-bed Last Rites, anyway. I’m not sure how publicizing the fact that they were nominally Catholic would have done anything positive for the Catholic Church, or for the war effort.

Also, the idea Pope Pius XII opposed Hitler and Mussolini in secret is poppycock! If it was in secret how do you know he opposed them?

Because the Jews he was protecting came out of hiding and told us so. Drawing attention to himself would have put those Jews in danger - as long as Hitler thought the Pope was distracted with other things, he never even thought of looking in the Vatican for escaped Jews.

 

[SolaFide]

Excommunication would have meant nothing to either one of them - they hadn’t been to Mass in years, and weren’t expecting any death-bed Last Rites, anyway. I’m not sure how publicizing the fact that they were nominally Catholic would have done anything positive for the Catholic Church, or for the war effort.

Because the Jews he was protecting came out of hiding and told us so. Drawing attention to himself would have put those Jews in danger - as long as Hitler thought the Pope was distracted with other things, he never even thought of looking in the Vatican for escaped Jews.

It would’ve meant the world to millions of Jews who had relatives die in the Holocaust because the rank and file Catholic was afraid to hide Jews or to speak out because their own pope was too cowardly to do so!!

And no you don’t know, but God does. All the pope had to do was to stem the tide of evil, stand up for those who are being lead to slaughter!!!

Pro 24:11 Deliver those who are being taken away to death,
And those who are staggering to slaughter, Oh hold them back.
Pro 24:12 If you say, “See, we did not know this,”
Does He not consider it who weighs the hearts?
And does He not know it who keeps your soul?
And will He not render to man according to his work?

But then why does he ask the allied governments to assist the facist government leaders (the ones left) to give them asylum after the war? Why was he protecting them?

 

[SolaFide]

I’ve been asked by BrianH to start my own thread because I’m “screwing up” his.

 

[BrianH]

I’ve been asked by BrianH to start my own thread because I’m “screwing up” his.

Yes, you are. And it is against forum rules to post PM’s cowboy
I thought about the R version but I have been cuss free for 2 years

 

[SolaFide]

Yes, you are. And it is against forum rules to post PM’s cowboy
I thought about the R version but I have been cuss free for 2 years

I didn’t post it, I quoted it. And I only quoted two words from it.

Nice that you’ve cleaned up your language. I guess I feel fortunate that you’re such a shining example of Catholicism charity toward me.

Stop calling me cowboy. I’m not a guy!

 

[Mannyfit75]

Not true! Anyone who is a baptized Catholic can be excommunicated! I checked the Catholic encyclopedia. My point still stands.

They can be execommunicated if they meet the requirements mention in the Code of Canon Law. As far as know, desecration of the Blessed Eucharistic is automatic, and part taking in abortion also is automatic.

Execommunication is not common. It is used only as a last resort, or if the sin is extremely grave like abortion as defined by Canon Law.

Also, the idea Pope Pius XII opposed Hitler and Mussolini in secret is poppycock! If it was in secret how do you know he opposed them?

First of all it is not poppycock and second, can you stop it with those terms like poppycock? That is very uncharitable and childlike.

Because I done some research on it.

On April 28, 1935, four years before the War even started, Pacelli (Pius XII name before he became Pope) gave a speech that aroused the attention of the world press. Speaking to an audience of 250,000 pilgrims in Lourdes, France, the future Pius XII stated that the Nazis **“are in reality only miserable plagiarists who dress up old errors with new tinsel. It does not make any difference whether they flock to the banners of social revolution, whether they are guided by a false concept of the world and of life, or whether they are possessed by the superstition of a race and blood cult.”(Source, Robert Graham, S.J., ed., Pius XII and the Holocaust). **

Secondly, Paul was not ashamed of his chains for Christ. Maybe Pius wasn’t so Pius and he should’ve been more outspoken against Hitler and Mussolini then the rank and file Catholic would’ve been emboldened to stand alongside him thinking; “If our leader can take a stand, so can we or so should we.” Isn’t the average Catholic supposed to support the pope?

Pope Pius XII actions speak louder than words.

Early in 1940, Hitler made an attempt to prevent the new Pope from maintaining the anti-Nazi stance he had taken before his election. He sent his underling, Joachim von Ribbentrop, to try to dissuade Pius XII from following his predecessor’s policies. “Von Ribbentrop, granted a formal audience on March 11, 1940, went into a lengthy harangue on the invincibility of the Third Reich, the inevitability of a Nazi victory, and the futility of papal alignment with the enemies of the Führer. Pius XII heard von Ribbentrop out politely and impassively. Then he opened an enormous ledger on his desk and, in his perfect German, began to recite a catalogue of the persecutions inflicted by the Third Reich in Poland, listing the date, place, and precise details of each crime. The audience was terminated; the Pope’s position was clearly unshakable.”

 

[Mannyfit75]

The Pope secretly worked to save as many Jewish lives as possible from the Nazis, whose extermination campaign began its most intense phase only after the War had started. It is here that the anti-Catholics try to make their hay: Pius XII is charged either with cowardly silence or with outright support of the Nazi extermination of millions of Jews.

Much of the impetus to smear the Vatican regarding World War II came, appropriately enough, from a work of fiction—a stage play called The Deputy, written after the War by a little-known German Protestant playwright named Rolf Hochhuth.

The play appeared in 1963, and it painted a portrait of a pope too timid to speak out publicly against the Nazis. Ironically, even Hochhuth admitted that Pius XII was materially very active in support of the Jews. Historian Robert Graham explains: “Playwright Rolf Hochhuth criticized the Pontiff for his (alleged) silence, but even he admitted that, on the level of action, Pius XII generously aided the Jews to the best of his ability. Today, after a quarter-century of the arbitrary and one-sided presentation offered the public, the word ‘silence’ has taken on a much wider connotation. It stands also for ‘indifference,’ ‘apathy,’ ‘inaction,’ and, implicitly, for anti-Semitism.”

Did the pope think he was greater than Paul who said that he wasn’t ashamed of the cross of Christ?

The Pope didn’t say anything. I don’t think he made a comment. No one saying he is greater than Paul. How about you? Are you greater than Paul?

Paul said his chains actually advanced the gospel. Did Pius really think that he had to be there to make sure the church would stand? That’s a bit arrogant. Did he actually think that Hitler would be able to either imprison or kill the pope and the world wouldn’t notice? I don’t think so.

No, what probably drove Pius was the fear of loss of power, control and income. If I work with this monster I still get goodies. Maybe Pius was more of a greedy coward then huh?
Did you notice that comment? That because of Paul’s imprisonment the brethren have far more courage to speak the word of God without fear. I guess Pius couldn’t trust God to do that with him and the church huh?

Actually Nazi invaded the the Vatican and Vatican was liberated by the Allies.

In late 1943, Mussolini, who had been at odds with the papacy all through his tenure, was removed from power by the Italians, but Hitler, fearing Italy would negotiate a separate peace with the Allies, invaded, took control, and set up Mussolini again as a puppet ruler. It was in this hour, when the Jews of Rome themselves were threatened—those whom the Pope had the most direct ability to help—that Pius XII really showed his mettle.

Joseph Lichten records that on September 27, 1943, one of the Nazi commanders demanded of the Jewish community in Rome payment of one hundred pounds of gold within thirty-six hours or three hundred Jews would be taken prisoner. When the Jewish Community Council was only able to gather only seventy pounds of gold, they turned to the Vatican.

((continue))

 

[jmcrae]

It would’ve meant the world to millions of Jews who had relatives die in the Holocaust because the rank and file Catholic was afraid to hide Jews or to speak out because their own pope was too cowardly to do so!!

“Cowardly”?

Read Dying We Live : The Final Messages and Records of the Resistance and become enlightened about what ordinary Catholics were doing.

By the way, if the Pope was supposed to inspire Catholics to do the right thing (and you think they couldn’t have done anything on their own initiative and knowledge of right and wrong as taught to them in Catechism classes), then who was supposed to inspire the Protestants to do the right thing?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Pius XII also took a public stance concerning the Jews of Italy: "The Pope spoke out strongly in their defense with the first mass arrests of Jews in 1943, and L’Osservatore Romano carried an article protesting the internment of Jews and the confiscation of their property. The Fascist press came to call the Vatican paper ‘a mouthpiece of the Jews.’ "[13]

Prior to the Nazi invasion, the Pope had been working hard to get Jews out of Italy by emigration; he now was forced to turn his attention to finding them hiding places. “The Pope sent out the order that religious buildings were to give refuge to Jews, even at the price of great personal sacrifice on the part of their occupants; he released monasteries and convents from the cloister rule forbidding entry into these religious houses to all but a few specified outsiders, so that they could be used as hiding places. Thousands of Jews—the figures run from 4,000 to 7,000—were hidden, fed, clothed, and bedded in the 180 known places of refuge in Vatican City, churches and basilicas, Church administrative buildings, and parish houses. Unknown numbers of Jews were sheltered in Castel Gandolfo, the site of the Pope’s summer residence, private homes, hospitals, and nursing institutions; and the Pope took personal responsibility for the care of the children of Jews deported from Italy.”[14]

Rabbi Lapide records that “in Rome we saw a list of 155 convents and monasteries—Italian, French, Spanish, English, American, and also German—mostly extraterritorial property of the Vatican . . . which sheltered throughout the German occupation some 5,000 Jews in Rome. No less than 3,000 Jews found refuge at one time at the Pope’s summer residence at Castel Gandolfo; sixty lived for nine months at the Jesuit Gregorian University, and half a dozen slept in the cellar of the Pontifical Bible Institute.”[15]

Notice in particular that the Pope was not merely allowing Jews to be hidden in different church buildings around Rome. He was hiding them in the Vatican itself and in his own summer home, Castel Gandolfo. His success in protecting Italian Jews against the Nazis was remarkable. Lichten records that after the War was over it was determined that only 8,000 Jews were taken from Italy by the Nazis[16] —far less than in other European countries. In June,1944, Pius XII sent a telegram to Admiral Miklos Horthy, the ruler of Hungary, and was able to halt the planned deportation of 800,000 Jews from that country.

The Pope’s efforts did not go unrecognized by Jewish authorities, even during the War. The Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog, sent the Pope a personal message of thanks on February 28, 1944, in which he said: “The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundations of true civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of divine Providence in this world.”[17]

Other Jewish leaders chimed in also. Rabbi Safran of Bucharest, Romania, sent a note of thanks to the papal nuncio on April 7, 1944: “It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the supreme pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews. . . . The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance.”[18]

The Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, also made a statement of thanks: “What the Vatican did will be indelibly and eternally engraved in our hearts. . . . Priests and even high prelates did things that will forever be an honor to Catholicism.”

 

[Mannyfit75]

After the war, Zolli became a Catholic and, to honor the Pope for what he had done for the Jews and the role he had played in Zolli’s conversion, took the name “Eugenio”—the Pope’s given name—as his own baptismal name. Zolli stressed that his conversion was for theological reasons, which was certainly true, but the fact that the Pope had worked so hard on behalf of the Jews no doubt played a role in inspiring him to look at the truths of Christianity.

Lapide writes: "When Zolli accepted baptism in 1945 and adopted Pius’s Christian name of Eugene, most Roman Jews were convinced that his conversion was an act of gratitude for wartime succor to Jewish refugees and, repeated denials not withstanding, many are still of his opinion. Thus, Rabbi Barry Dov Schwartz wrote in the summer issue, 1964, of Conservative Judaism: ‘Many Jews were persuaded to convert after the war, as a sign of gratitude, to that institution which had saved their lives.’ "[20]

In Three Popes and the Jews Lapide estimated the total number of Jews that had been spared as a result of Pius XII’s throwing the Church’s weight into the clandestine struggle to save them. After totaling the numbers of Jews saved in different areas and deducting the numbers saved by other causes, such as the praiseworthy efforts of some European Protestants, “The final number of Jewish lives in whose rescue the Catholic Church had been the instrument is thus at least 700,000 souls, but in all probability it is much closer to . . . 860,000.”[21] This is a total larger than all other Jewish relief organizations in Europe, combined, were able to save. Lapide calculated that Pius XII and the Church he headed constituted the most successful Jewish aid organization in all of Europe during the war, dwarfing the Red Cross and all other aid societies.

This fact continued to be recognized when Pius XII died in 1958. Lapide’s book records the eulogies of a number of Jewish leaders concerning the Pope, and far from agreeing with Jack Chick that he deserved death because of his “war crimes,” Jewish leaders praised the man highly:[22]

“We share the grief of the world over the death of His Holiness Pius XII. . . . During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people passed through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with their victims” (Golda Meir, Israeli representative to the U.N. and future prime minister of Israel).

"With special gratitude we remember all he has done for the persecuted Jews during one of the darkest periods in their entire history” (Nahum Goldmann, president of the World Jewish Congress).

“More than anyone else, we have had the opportunity to appreciate the great kindness, filled with compassion and magnanimity, that the Pope displayed during the terrible years of persecution and terror” (Elio Toaff, Chief Rabbi of Rome, following Rabbi Zolli’s conversion).

Finally, let us conclude with a quotation from Lapide’s record that was not given at the death of Pius XII, but was given after the War by the most well-known Jewish figure of this century, Albert Einstein: “Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty.”[23]

 

[Mannyfit75]

SolaFides,

If you read those posts concerning Pope Pius XII, it is apparent you have your facts all wrong. I don’t know why you have so much hatred for the Catholic Church. I have never meet a Non-Catholic Christians with such hatred it sickens me. I know there are Non-Catholic Christians like BrianH. I do disagree with him, but compared to him. He is more charitable than you. His post aren’t as outright offensive as yours. Your posts are nothing but distorted opinions who apparently have some issues with the Catholic Church.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Kitty,

You’re in Canada. Things are different up there.

Here in the States its very much like this, so much so that, as you can see by this message board broadly speaking, many Catholics mistake this sort of thing for “Protestant Christianity”.

Exactly I remember OS Luke and others correcting what protestants believe. Im only saying just as Catholics dont want incorrect labels others dont as well

sides if labels were done away with it would be better anyway.

 

[qui_est_ce]

It would’ve meant the world to millions of Jews who had relatives die in the Holocaust because the rank and file Catholic was afraid to hide Jews or to speak out because their own pope was too cowardly to do so!!

Sola,

Off topic, but since your aim is to refute Catholicism and evangelize Latin America, you might want to visit this page

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=200827

PS, my uncle, a Catholic priest in France was also in a German concentraion camp.

My mother forgave the Germans and married one. His name is even Fritz.

For the record, I frankly find it difficult to believe a person as uncharitable and unknowledgable as you could get anyone to follow you.

 

[SolaFide]

For the record, I frankly find it difficult to believe a person as uncharitable and unknowledgable as you could get anyone to follow you

Sorry you feel that way.

I’ve been studying Catholicism for several years now, both their writings and others. I find the unknowledgable ones to be those who look at opposing views as those they are always wrong.

Karl Keating and Peter Kreeft have some good things to say. But they are also wrong on some things. I take eat meat and spit out the bones. You seem to not even want to consider anything I say. That’s too bad.

 

[vflibunao]

We love the Protestants believers, but not their teaching at all because in the first place, they don’t have reason to leave or separated from the Church.

The Scripture says, “Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be NO DIVISIONS AMOUNG YOU, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.”(1Cor. 1:10)

Why their leaders revolted from the Church and established their own church too? Where is the truth in their midst? Since the birth of Protestantism and other churches, several of them were established in their namesake. No unity and they are fighting each other.

I don’t believe that the real motives of those who revolted the Holy Catholic Church and formed another body (Protestantism etc.) will solve the problems done by some Church leaders from the past and at present time.

If their aimed is to purify the Church, there is no reason at all from the Concerned to revolt or separated from the mainstream Christianity (The Holy Catholic Church). But instead, find a solution to the problem(s) facing or encountering by the Church as a whole.

The Church is a composed of faithful Believers who have different gifts and tasks to the Lord and if anyone or somebody make a mistake or sin(s) against others. NEVER never blaming the whole Church about the mistake done by a few Church leaders who have bested interest and the enemy of Truth. If the cause is about the teaching promultaged or issued by the Church council, let us voice out our objection or asking them to explain their action. It is our duty and rights to check and balance the action or deeds of our Church leaders who oversee the Church faithful believers.

Sectarianism is carnal. In 1Cor.3:1-4, :… For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

God Bless!

Vergel

 

[ralphinal]

You mean once he began teaching things that were Scriptural and therefore contrary to the church.

You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to. Same difference. Six of one, half a dozen of the other, blah, blah, blah

And so it begins. See, everything that the Church teaches can be supported either by Scripture, by Sacred Tradition (which you will deny the existance of), or, usually, by both. What Luther taught flew in the face of Scripture and Sacred Tradition. I know that you are certain of your position. I know that you are a person of convictions and faith. I also know that there have been a lot of Catholics before me who where smarter than both of us together. They knew that the Catholic Church was the correct Church. Why change?

TO be honest, I am more willing to accept the Morman and Muslim view that the church got off track and God Himself sent an angel down to teach the correct way then I am to believe that a few guys in northern Europe, working a political angle, “found” the true faith.

 

[ralphinal]

No Christian group did more than the Catholic church to help the Jews in occupied lands. I am not saying we did enough, but no one did more.