For Protestants who know their "stuff"

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BrianH

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At the risk of being conceited, I include myself in this group. After being on these boards for quite some time, I have read the posts of a number of fellow Protestants who obviously know their “stuff”.
You have read the Early Christian Fathers, scripture, and with apologies to Cardinal Newman, “Are deep into history”. 😃

Yet, we do not convert for a number of reasons. For me, it is the Marian dogmas, the Papacy, and a very evangelical view about conversion(despite the fact that my own denomination is situationally evangelical).

Yet, on the other hand, most of the people on here who are Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, or Presbyterian know fully well that our respective groups are battling to stay within the realm…of historic orthodox beliefs(yes I know that Catholics do not think we are but WE think we are obviously 😃 )
So, to make a long question longer, does this discourage you like it does me?
You are not converting to Catholicism or Orthodoxy, but you are frustrated with the slow winds, and in some cases they are a monsoon, blowing our churches away from orthodoxy.
How do you handle it? I am not handling it well lately.
Thanks. I am not really interested in debate. I have read all of the debates a hundred times but in the thoughts of people who MIGHT find themselves in this situation.
BH
 
Two thing.

1, Purgatory

2, 500 years of unforgiveness between fellow Christians who claim to preach forgiveness.
 
Been there. Been there. YES: I experienced the discouraging frustration with a denomination that kept spinning out of control into depravity as a “revelation of the Holy Spirit.”

I already understood the Marian dogmas – wasn’t crazy about 'em but could defend them. Purgatory was no problem. But I had “good” reasons for not converting. Ultimately, Peter pushed me over the Tiber. I could not get past Mt. 16:18. One day, the Boss whispered in my ear: “My Church is where Peter is.”

All my great arguments melted under that.
 
BrianH said:
Yet, on the other hand, most of the people on here who are Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, or Presbyterian know fully well that our respective groups are battling to stay within the realm…of historic orthodox beliefs(yes I know that Catholics do not think we are but WE think we are obviously 😃 ) So, to make a long question longer, does this discourage you like it does me? You are not converting to Catholicism or Orthodoxy, but you are frustrated with the slow winds, and in some cases they are a monsoon, blowing our churches away from orthodoxy.
How do you handle it? I am not handling it well lately.
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We are refugees…
 
  1. The effective universalism of the current RCC ecumenical stance.
  2. The Marian Dogmas and Papal Infallibility.
 
East_Anglican said:
2, 500 years of unforgiveness between fellow Christians who claim to preach forgiveness.
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What do you call Pope John Paul II apology to God about the sins of the members of the Catholic Church then? Do you think the supposed 500 is still unforgiveness?

I’ll leave you with these words.

"Remember the past, learn from them, but live the future as if you are going to die soon. How do you live? By living the statutes that Jesus Christ has given us through His Church.
 
Mannyfit75 said:
What do you call Pope John Paul II apology to God about the sins of the members of the Catholic Church then? Do you think the supposed 500 is still unforgiveness?

I’ll leave you with these words.

"Remember the past, learn from them, but live the future as if you are going to die soon. How do you live? By living the statutes that Jesus Christ has given us through His Church.
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When the excommunication against Luther and the Tridentine anathemas are lifted I’ll start taking it seriously.
 
Steadfast said:
When the excommunication against Luther and the Tridentine anathemas are lifted I’ll start taking it seriously.
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How can you be in communion with someone who teaches different doctrines? Sola Scriptura and Sola Fides?
 
Steadfast said:
When the excommunication against Luther and the Tridentine anathemas are lifted I’ll start taking it seriously.
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They aren’t lifted. They remain because Lutheran preach doctrine contrary to the Teachings of the Catholic Church.

However, I think the execommunication ends when the individual is dead. I may have to double check on it. I’m no fan of Luther though. He could have been the next St. Francis of Assisi by rebuilding the Church from within rather than departing from it.
 
I understand.

But don’t pretend to be all ecumenical if you’re going to, at the same time, maintain that my doctrine is accursed.

I liked my Catholics better when they believed they were the only ones going to heaven.
 
Steadfast said:
I understand.

But don’t pretend to be all ecumenical if you’re going to, at the same time, maintain that my doctrine is accursed.

I liked my Catholics better when they believed they were the only ones going to heaven.
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The term is, we hope to be in heaven. 👍
 
Steadfast said:
I understand.

But don’t pretend to be all ecumenical if you’re going to, at the same time, maintain that my doctrine is accursed.

I liked my Catholics better when they believed they were the only ones going to heaven.
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Ecumenial does not mean we give it up, it means we are trying to seek common ground. So far we have achieved using the same cycle of Scriptural readings. Once a year we have prayer service with neighboring nonCatholic churches. Last year our parish had a service with the Lutheran church across the stree (ELCA). Our choirs practiced together and sang together for the service. Next February, we will be doing the service at the their church. We now share blood drives, health checkups, Thanksgiving dinners to shut-ins, and send our kids over there for Vacation Bible school. Good stuff, huh?

Your doctrine (you’re still Catholic, though aren’t you?) is not accursed. The Pope and the Lutheran churches came to an agreement on salvation - that is it by the Grace of God, not by good works alone or faith alone. No sure if MO Synod went along.

Others, we don’t agree with - Sola Scriptura.
 
qui_est_ce said:
How can you be in communion with someone who teaches different doctrines? Sola Scriptura and Sola Fides?
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Not to offend anyone but in reality, the ELCA are too liberal now for that to happen and the Missouri Synod I DONT THINK have that inclination. Just an opinion:o
 
BrianH said:
Not to offend anyone but in reality, the ELCA are too liberal now for that to happen and the Missouri Synod I DONT THINK have that inclination. Just an opinion:o
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Didn’t they just ordain a lesbian priest who refused to take a vow of celibacy? Oh yeah, I remember you and I had an agreement on that…
 
Grace & Peace!
qui_est_ce said:
How can you be in communion with someone who teaches different doctrines? Sola Scriptura and Sola Fides?
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Qui, I’m not a Lutheran and do not personally believe in Sola Scriptura, but it is possible to believe in both Sola Scripture and Sola Fides: Sola Scriptura refers to authority–only the Bible is the source of that which must be believed; Sola Fides refers to the grace of salvation–only faith (not works) gives access to saving grace. You are right that two absolutes are difficult to reconcile, but these are two absolutes which refer themselves to different realms.

Re: the original question, I do not feel I can become Roman for these reasons:

1: Papal supremacy (though I fully accept and believe in Papal primacy and really really like BXVI)
2: A culture of legalism
3: An overly scholastic/jesuitical approach to theology (which is related to 2 above)

Re: staying within the realm of historic orthodoxy, I am sure there are those here who would say that I am hardly one to speak to this. But on this issue, I think we must balance a couple things:

Tradition vs. traditionalism

The absoluteness of truth vs. the sense that we absolutely and for all time completely understand the truth
I think that the more one moves in the direction of fundamentalism (which is not necessarily the direction of orthodoxy), the more one moves toward traditionalism and the understanding that one’s knowledge of truth is complete. I don’t think that’s a good position to be in. But very often, this is the picture of Roman Catholicism that I get on these boards, and I do not find it particularly enticing. To be honest, though, the more one moves towards liberalism, the more one will tend to disregard tradition and view all truth as relative. To me, that extreme position is nonsensical. There must be a middle ground. I do not think Roman Catholicism, as represented on these boards, embodies that middle ground. I think, actually, that the Eastern Orthodox come closest. For the time being, however, I remain Anglo-Catholic.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!
 
:hypno: an awful lot of me me me me me going on in this thread.

Thy will be done.
 
What I dont get is there is this rift between the two and neither will accept the other officially.

Yet for example a Catholic will stop attending their church and end up in a Protestant one. There they will find God and eventually return to the Catholic.

and vice versa

I cannot understand how these displaced persons are finding God if the other church is not worthy of acceptance officially.

🙂
 
maurin said:
:hypno: an awful lot of me me me me me going on in this thread.

Thy will be done.
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The original question is asking about personal experiences and thoughts.
It goes without saying that the underlying presupposition for all posters is that they seek to do the will of God (THY will).
That is the assumption most people share about other posters.
This thread can do without the occasional poster who drops in and makes a value judgement about the intentions and motives of others.

“me” count this particular post= 0 :rolleyes:
.
 
I don’t see the actual Catholic Church immune from the winds of heresy, having sampled the local teaching. Full of the winds of heresy and false teaching. The local RCIA teacher doesn’t believe there probably was a historical Jesus, for example. He refers to the “Jesus events” that are clouded in uncertainty that we cannot penetrate. And he’s teaching people how to be good Catholics. Not me.

The church I attend is far more Catholic than the Catholic Church.
 
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