For Supporters of Capital Punishment

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Everyone talking about “love and kindness” forgets that it applies to the victims of violent crime as well, not just the monsters who commit these acts.

Look, I get it-we all want to feel compassionate and loving-I would strongly support preaching to people in prison the love and forgiveness aspect of Christianity-but that still means they need to be punished-and that means, if they have committed a harsh enough crime-application of the death penalty.

If your consistently against the death penalty, great. That means Israel was wrong for hanging Eichmann. That means the monsters who run North Korea shouldn’t get the gas chamber for killing millions (literally) of innocent people.

Never, ever forget the victims. They have earned the right to want retribution.
 

Never, ever forget the victims. They have earned the right to want retribution.
You’ll notice that the loudest advocates for preserving the life of killers are careful never to mention the names of the victims or the particulars of the crimes.
 
You’ll notice that the loudest advocates for preserving the life of killers are careful never to mention the names of the victims or the particulars of the crimes.
You are, without question, 100 percent correct.
 
The only way to absolutely prevent such a thing is to keep each prisoner in utter isolation from all contact with other prisoners and contact to the outside world. Unfortunately, such methods, as I have also highlighted above, generally have the tendency to drive a prisoner to madness. Using incarceration techniques that would driver prisoners to madness is a violation of the prisoners’ human rights as they do not respect the basic human dignity of the prisoners in question.
Hi Mark

I know I started this string, but I have found out that these discussions don’t usually lead to much understanding of the other’s point of view, so I do not respond much, but I did want to tell you that you have raised some important issues. You essentially ask, 'What about the people behind bars that continue killing. If they have shown no remorse, but, rather, continue to kill other humans - how do we keep society (inside and outside of prison) safe?"

I answer that by stating that the reason why prisoners kill prisoners is because they were able to come into contact with other prisoners. No contact - no problems. The solution is not taking their life, especially when that is not necessary to keep society safe. Rather, just put these violent persons in single cells/isolation 23 hours a day with 1 hour for individual recreation. That is exactly how it is done here in Youngstown, Ohio at our Super Max Prison where the most violent are always sent. They have NO contact with ANYONE - even mail is read on a television screen, visits are on a tv screen, and etc.

So there are always better solutions to a problem than killing it, which is the easy way out.

I use to be in favor of capital punishment until I found myself in a situation where I needed the mercy of God. He gave it to me even though I didn’t deserve it. I deserved death and He gave me life. So I believe Scripture, that God does not desire anyone to perish before they come to the knowledge of truth, and that may take a hardened heart many years, but with prayer on our part all things are possible. I use to sit on hospice vigils in prison - I sat right there on the bedside of some of the worst criminals in the world as they were taking their last breath. And the majority of them who had never heard the gospel or who had rejected Christ for their entire life turned to Him in those last few days or last hours. For these reasons I am never ready to give up on anymore, because God did not give up on me and He did not give up on those criminals regardless of what they had done. If we just give Jesus away to those who hate Him, He will give them back to us.

David L. Gray
 
Hi Mark

I know I started this string, but I have found out that these discussions don’t usually lead to much understanding of the other’s point of view, so I do not respond much
With all due respect, that’s grossly unfair and a bit, well, for lack of a better word, cowardice. It’s sort of like taking your ball and going home if your not winning.
 
Hi Mark

I know I started this string, but I have found out that these discussions don’t usually lead to much understanding of the other’s point of view, so I do not respond much, but I did want to tell you that you have raised some important issues. You essentially ask, 'What about the people behind bars that continue killing. If they have shown no remorse, but, rather, continue to kill other humans - how do we keep society (inside and outside of prison) safe?"

I answer that by stating that the reason why prisoners kill prisoners is because they were able to come into contact with other prisoners. No contact - no problems. The solution is not taking their life, especially when that is not necessary to keep society safe. Rather, just put these violent persons in single cells/isolation 23 hours a day with 1 hour for individual recreation. That is exactly how it is done here in Youngstown, Ohio at our Super Max Prison where the most violent are always sent. They have NO contact with ANYONE - even mail is read on a television screen, visits are on a tv screen, and etc.
And they go crazy. Almost 100% of the time. Within months.

That is why that is not a suitable problem. Particularly if you are concerned with mercy. IMHO, such an existence, particularly for a lifetime, would be worse than death.

If you are interested in mercy and redemption, you may be interested in reading this journal article on the subject:

The Psychological Effects of Solitary Confinement on Prisoners in Supermax Units

A key section of this article talks about the psychological effect of long term segregation:
Haney (1993) noted that in the absence of social context people become “highly malleable, unnaturally sensitive, and vulnerable to the influence of those who control the environment around them” (p. 5). Paradoxically, long-term social isolation often leads to social withdrawal. Individuals move from craving social contact to fearing it. Prisoners housed under conditions of confinement such as those found at the SHU grow to rely on the prison structure to limit and control their behavior. A consequence of this is that convicts are no longer able to manage their conduct when returned to the general prison population or when released to the community. Alternatively, incarcerates may become unable to initiate behavior on their own due to severe apathy and lethargy. Convicts may resort to acting-out behavior as a means of testing their environment, or they may retreat into fantasy. Haney (2003) indicated that prisoners in the SHU experience intolerable feelings of frustration, anger, and rage. Rageful acting out by offenders is often used to justify the conditions of their confinement; however, he noted that “rage is a reaction against, not a justification for, their oppressive confinement” (Haney, 1993, p. 5).3

Haney (2006) also cautioned that prisoners in long-term solitary confinement are at increased risk for developing symptoms of mental illness. Social isolation is correlated with clinical depression and long-term impulse-control disorder. Prisoners with preexisting mental illness are at particular risk for developing psychiatric symptoms in solitary confinement. Psychosis, suicidal behavior, and self-mutilation are commonly seen among prisoners in long-term solitary confinement. In addition, offenders with mental illness are already at increased risk for being placed in solitary confinement because they have difficulty adjusting to prison and are often unable to manage their behavior in the correctional population (Haney, 2003). Behavior that stems from mental illness is often used as a justification to place convicts with mental illness in the SHU.



Grassian (1983) identified a psychopathological condition, known as SHU syndrome, among these prisoners (see also Kupers, 1999). SHU syndrome is characterized by perceptual changes; affective disturbance; difficulty with thinking, concentration, and memory; disturbance of thought content; and problems with impulse control. Grassian found that these incarcerates were hypersensitive to external stimuli and frequently experienced distortions of perception, hallucinations, or feelings of derealization. Most convicts suffered extreme generalized anxiety and symptoms of panic disorder. Many offenders were confused, and some suffered amnesia for some of the events that occurred during their confinement. Many prisoners reported frightening and disturbing violent fantasies of revenge against their captors. Many suffered paranoia and believed they were being persecuted. Several prisoners reported problems with impulse control, characterized by violent or destructive behavior or acts of self-mutilation. Notably, most of these offenders had no previous history of psychiatric problems. In all cases, their symptoms subsided after they were released from segregated housing. Grassian noted that the effects of solitary confinement varied according to the degree of social isolation and sensory deprivation that was imposed. Thus, as he concluded, “The use of solitary confinement carries major psychiatric risks” (p. 1454).4
If mercy is your reason, how can subjecting prisoners to the above (read the article for more) be considered merciful?
 
[bibledrb]Matt 5:7[/bibledrb]
OK, and?

The Church says that you have a right to self-defense. Nothing I posted has indicated anything contrary to that, if you would actually bother to read my whole post.

Now, you might choose to be a martyr rather than to invoke your right to self defense. If you do so, that may be a very commendable act. But you may not offer another person to be a martyr. As JPII said in Evangelium Vitae:
Consequently, no one can renounce the right to self-defence out of lack of love for life or for self. This can only be done in virtue of a heroic love which deepens and transfigures the love of self into a radical self-offering, according to the spirit of the Gospel Beatitudes (cf. Mt 5:38-40). [EV 55]
But if you are responsible for others, you have other obligations that do not include offering that person for martyrdom:
Moreover, “legitimate defence can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another’s life, the common good of the family or of the State”. Unfortunately it happens that the need to render the aggressor incapable of causing harm sometimes involves taking his life. In this case, the fatal outcome is attributable to the aggressor whose action brought it about, even though he may not be morally responsible because of a lack of the use of reason.
If you have a problems with the teachings of the Church, then so be it.
Mark I mentioned Matthew 5:7 not because of this topic, but because your lack of charity in responding to me. God Bless!
 
Mark I mentioned Matthew 5:7 not because of this topic, but because your lack of charity in responding to me. It’s that lack of charity that causes bad will in the world. I will pray that the Holy Spirit inspires you! God Bless!
I would think 1 Cor 13:1-2 would be better [biblelvb]1 Cor 13:1-2[/biblelvb]

But your point is taken.

Now if you’d care to deal with the substance of the comment, we can press on.
 
Yospehdaviyd & hxcCatholic413

If capital punishment is grievously unacceptable, without exception, under all circumstances, then how does society protect itself against a prisoner who still poses a threat even though behind bars?

I’ve talked to a number of anti-death penalty advocates in my day. I hear “mercy” from them…and in many cases I agree. And they’ve caused my view to evolve from the Mosaic eye-for-an-eye view to more of a “vengeance is mine says the Lord I will repay” view. But I have yet to hear a practical solution for the above problem. So what would you two do?
Can you give me an example of this actual scenario? So even in 23 hour lockdown this individual still poses a great threat? or is it minute (meaning very small)? I can’t see this scenario ever happening to be honest. It’s merely a “what if”.
 
You are correct, I do not have the right to punish someone. However, the state has both the right and duty to punish offenders. "For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afrad, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute His wrath on the wrongdoer.

“Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense.” (CCC #2266)

Your interpretation clearly contradicts Genesis 9:6. In the CCC paragraph #2260, Genesis 9:6 is quoted. Then the CCC continues the paragraph saying that the Old Testament always considered blood a sacred sign of life. So Genesis 9:6 really is talking about murder and its punishment, as it specifically mentions those who shed the sacred sign of life.
Unfortunately public authority doesn’t always think about God’s will when inflicting punishment. With that in mind how could I really trust what the state decides as just? I couldn’t. I follow the state’s laws…most of them are in tune with God’s laws such as not killing another human or stealing from another individual, but in case you didn’t forget the state legalizes abortion as well as contraceptives. With that in mind how does the state have the right to judge a prisoner on whether or not he should live or die?

I feel that lawmakers and those in position of deciding on matters such as this let their emotions get to them. We also live in a society that oppresses its’ own citizens and ignores God in all forms. Very sad…I know. Don’t become brainwashed by what society says is ok. God Bless!
 
Can you give me an example of this actual scenario? So even in 23 hour lockdown this individual still poses a great threat? or is it minute (meaning very small)? I can’t see this scenario ever happening to be honest. It’s merely a “what if”.
This is one way convicts can and do communicate to the outside, through attorneys.

abajournal.com/news/article/jail_mail_from_attorney_must_be_opened_in_inmates_presence_7th_circuit_says/

"Seeking to strike a balance between legitimate prison security concerns and an inmate’s right to confer confidentially with his or her attorney, a federal appeals court in Chicago has ruled that state officials must open such mail only in the presence of the inmate, to insure that legitimate “legal mail” is merely glanced at, rather than read.

But an inmate’s attorney correspondent isn’t sacrosanct, the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals says in an opinion yesterday written by Judge Richard Posner. Prison officials have good reason, a three-judge panel says, to open legal mail to determine that it is, in fact, from a lawyer and take a brief look at the letter to determine that it discusses a legitimate matter … .

I have personal experience with this, at least, I’ve been asked.
 
Everyone talking about “love and kindness” forgets that it applies to the victims of violent crime as well, not just the monsters who commit these acts.

Look, I get it-we all want to feel compassionate and loving-I would strongly support preaching to people in prison the love and forgiveness aspect of Christianity-but that still means they need to be punished-and that means, if they have committed a harsh enough crime-application of the death penalty.

If your consistently against the death penalty, great. That means Israel was wrong for hanging Eichmann. That means the monsters who run North Korea shouldn’t get the gas chamber for killing millions (literally) of innocent people.

Never, ever forget the victims. They have earned the right to want retribution.
I don’t want to sound harsh in saying this, but the victims don’t have the right to retribution. They’ve passed on. I’m sure that in their spirit form they have much different views regarding human life then they had while they were living. By this I mean that while they were alive they might have been in favor of the death penalty or against it, but since they have passed on they don’t care anymore. I hope that isn’t taken the wrong way. By no means do I intend to cause any bad will.

I think it’s silly that death penalty even exists and other forms of oppression, but we don’t live in a perfect world so these questions and conflicts do arise. God Bless!
 
Frankly I don’t see this discussion going anywhere. There seems to be two sides on this issue in this forum.
  1. Those who are for the Death Penalty because it’s a form of a needed punishment.
  2. Those who oppose it because it shows a lack of love and forgiveness.
It sounds like the first scenario comes right out of the OT where as the second scenario comes out of the NT…interesting. It’s just what I see at the moment.
 
I don’t want to sound harsh in saying this, but the victims don’t have the right to retribution. They’ve passed on. I’m sure that in their spirit form they have much different views regarding human life then they had while they were living. By this I mean that while they were alive they might have been in favor of the death penalty or against it, but since they have passed on they don’t care anymore. I hope that isn’t taken the wrong way. By no means do I intend to cause any bad will.

I think it’s silly that death penalty even exists and other forms of oppression, but we don’t live in a perfect world so these questions and conflicts do arise. God Bless!
Minimizing the tragedy of murder by saying the victims have “moved on” doesn’t harsh so much as it is bizarre.

Victim Impact Statements allow the family members of murdered victims have their say in open court, directly addressing the murderer and if they wish to express a desire for retribution, that’s their right, and the law recognizes it…

Whether murdered victims suffered before they, as you trivialize it, “pass on” can and does have a purpose in deciding whether or not to impose the DP (as in, first degree murder for a torture killing).

The pathetic fact is anti-DPers turn a blind eye to the reality of what the condemned killers they get bent out of shape over actually did.
 
Can you give me an example of this actual scenario? So even in 23 hour lockdown this individual still poses a great threat? or is it minute (meaning very small)? I can’t see this scenario ever happening to be honest. It’s merely a “what if”.
Supermax lockdown tends to kill the minds of the prisoner…makes them go crazy. I extracted a copy of a scholarly journal article that discussed the effects of this in post #45, above.

I discussed some concrete examples of the communications that could occur from within prison in post #32, above.

The problem lies in if a state was to implement the recommendations given in that article cited in post #45, the prisoner would have outside communications, which could allow what happened in the examples cited in post #32.
 
Minimizing the tragedy of murder by saying the victims have “moved on” doesn’t harsh so much as it is bizarre.

Victim Impact Statements allow the family members of murdered victims have their say in open court, directly addressing the murderer and if they wish to express a desire for retribution, that’s their right, and the law recognizes it…

Whether murdered victims suffered before they, as you trivialize it, “pass on” can and does have a purpose in deciding whether or not to impose the DP (as in, first degree murder for a torture killing).

The pathetic fact is anti-DPers turn a blind eye to the reality of what the condemned killers they get bent out of shape over actually did.
Why so much hate?
 
Frankly I don’t see this discussion going anywhere. There seems to be two sides on this issue in this forum.
  1. Those who are for the Death Penalty because it’s a form of a needed punishment.
  2. Those who oppose it because it shows a lack of love and forgiveness.
It sounds like the first scenario comes right out of the OT where as the second scenario comes out of the NT…interesting. It’s just what I see at the moment.
Add a third side (mine, at least): where it is not desirable but is necessary on occasion for the protection of society from any further damage.

(The first position, I think, attempts to say that it is necessary out of justice…and that distinguishes my position which says it is occasionally necessary out of preservation of the common good)
 
No hate here at all. I’m just interested in why there’s so much more sympathy for the killers over the victims and their families.
In some ways the killers are victims themselves. Perhaps they came from a broken home, suffer mental disorders, etc.
 
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