For the abandoned spouse

[FCGeorge]

Up until that point, I suppose I was the “abandoned spouse” but I think filing changed my status according to the OP’s definition (please let me know if I am mistaken).

Something happened once I filed for the divorce (and yes, he called off the marriage, but I was the one who filed). My husband started to fight the divorce. He didn’t apologize for anything and he saw no reason to stop seeing his latest lover, go to counseling, etc… he just didn’t want the divorce and thought I should stop it because that’s what he wanted. I don’t know why, although I can speculate and I don’t think it’s because he wanted to repair the marriage. His efforts where half hearted and mostly delivered via our daughter (we have joint custody). I didn’t like him using our daughter like that–I thought it was manipulating her feelings/trying to paint me as the “bad guy.” The divorce went though.

So anyway, I wonder if that makes me the abandoned spouse or the one who did the abandoning? Like the OP said, I don’t see myself as “wrong” and I believe I was in the right during all of this. So I am concerned, was I wrong? Until he told me he wanted a divorce and started initiating it, the idea never occurred to me as an option.

Hello Mellowcalico, I am so very sorry that you and your daughter have had to go through all of this.

It is difficult to view you as the “abandoning spouse” in your situation. If he is persisting in this sin then he is not a truly repentant “prodigal spouse” who you would welcome home with open arms as the father welcomed home the prodigal son.

As for the question of validity, it sounds like your heart is seeking truth rather than “seeking annulment” even though your words say you are “seeking annulment.” It sounds like you have not “divorced” him in your heart even though you refer to him as your “ex husband.” You seem to be remaining faithful to him (you say you are not dating anyone or have any interest in dating). I don’t know your heart there but obviously God does.

It doesn’t sound like your husband (the marriage is still presumed valid) even intended exclusivity at the time of marriage. If this is true then you two were never validly married. God doesn’t “force” two into one flesh. If he had no intent of being faithful to you for life then this is simply not a marriage. (Canon law experts please correct me if I am wrong here.)

I obviously do not have all the facts and do not want to pretend to judge your specific marital status though.

My only advise is to lay all the information out there for the tribunal. Even the information that would indicate that he did indeed intend to be faithful to you for life (if there is any… other than his vows).

I would really have to be sure that my spouse did not intend to be faithful for life… that she knew she could and would have relationships outside of our marriage and just flat out lied to me that she was going to be faithful. If I truly did believe this without being clouded by a desire to enter a new relationship with some other woman, then I might be confident in the American tribunal’s ruling that my marriage wasn’t valid.

Please know that you and your family truly are in my prayers.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[Rence]

I pray that you will consider that this is not about “trapping someone in a relationship that they don’t want any part of anymore” or “forcing people to remain in a relationship that they don’t want any part of.”

Unfortunately, I think that’s exactly how it is, and I think it’s about not being able to let go.

That would not be love. Our Blessed Lord does not “trap us” or “force us” to stay in a loving relationship with Him.

Exactly, He wouldn’t.

The abandoned spouse who is truly loving the abandoner as Christ loves the Church is not trying to “trap him” or “force him” to stay in a loving relationship with her.

Rather, the abandoned spouse is simply trying to help the abandoner see that the choice to abandon and remain separated is a gravely sinful choice and if he continues to make that gravely sinful choice and dies in that state without repentance then he will be separated from our Lord forever.

The abandoned spouse is simply asking the Church to make this clear to the abandoner so that the abandoner sees the need to repent so that the abandoner can be with our Lord forever in Heaven.

This is truly charitable and charitably truthful. Our Holy Father’s Lenten message encourages faithful Catholics to once again practice this. His Excellency’s third encyclical *Caritas In Veritate *written in 2009 also reminds us… “Only in truth does charity shine forth, only in truth can charity be authentically lived. Truth is the light that gives meaning and value to charity.”

Well, the Church should make it clear to the one who wants no part of the relationship anymore that he/she cannot live like they’re not married, and that they have to lead chaste lives, that’s for sure. I don’t think it’s always a sin to end a marriage.

If we are honest we must admit that by concluding that a particular separation is morally licit then we are “judging” that the abandoned spouse is continuing in a sin worthy of the continued abandonment.

Respectfully, I disagree. Real life isn’t black and white, and it certaintly doesn’t work ‘by the book’. The end of a relationship doesn’t have to mean that the ‘victim’ is continuing a sin worthy of the end of such a relationship. Trying to keep a person in a relationship by coersion isn’t healthy either.

 

[FCGeorge]

Originally Posted by FCGeorge
I pray that you will consider that this is not about “trapping someone in a relationship that they don’t want any part of anymore” or “forcing people to remain in a relationship that they don’t want any part of.”

Unfortunately, I think that’s exactly how it is, and I think it’s about not being able to let go.

Good morning Rence,

Do you believe that when the Church holds up the truth that two men are in grave sin if they have a sexual relationship with each other, that the Church is then “forcing” these men to not be with the one’s they are “in love” with?

The point is that the Church isn’t “trapping” or “forcing” but rather holding up the Truth. The Truth is that these men would be gravely sinning and would have separated themselves from Christ. Just as the Church holds up the Truth that abandoning your spouse for no morally licit reason is also a grave sin. It doesn’t “force” the spouse to remain, just as it doesn’t “force” the two men to not sleep together. It just holds up the Truth of what those actions are… gravely sinful.

Well, the Church should make it clear to the one who wants no part of the relationship anymore that he/she cannot live like they’re not married, and that they have to lead chaste lives, that’s for sure.

If a man is “living like a married person” then what does that look like with his wife?

Do you disagree with Dr. Javier Hervada, Holder of the Chair of canon law,
Faculties of Law and Canon Law, University of Navarra, Pamplona…

What are the just reasons for separation? In marriage, apart from the conjugal rights and obligations in the strict sense, there are principles that regulate married life, that is, general guidelines for the behavior of the spouses. There are five such principles:
1) The spouses must remain faithful;
2) They must strive after mutual materiel or bodily perfection;
3) They must strive after mutual spiritual perfection;
4) The spouses must live together,
5) They must strive after the material and spiritual good of their offspring.

What do a married man’s vows before God commit him to?

I don’t think it’s always a sin to end a marriage.

Do you really believe that man has the power to “end a marriage?” That man can somehow separate what God joins? How does that happen?

Our Catechism teaches that divorce is…
DIVORCE: The claim that the indissoluble marriage bond validly entered into between a man and a woman is broken. A civil dissolution of the marriage contract (divorce) does not free persons from a valid marriage before God; remarriage would not be morally licit (2382; cf. 1650).

Notice that it says the “claim.”

Our Catechism also says that divorce is a “grave offense” (2384) and divorce is “immoral” (2385).

I understand that a civil divorce could be morally licit in certain situations when there are no other alternatives (i.e. legal separation that could provide the same protections), but when is it ever morally licit to claim in my heart that I am no longer married to the one to whom God joined me to?

When is it ever okay to say, “Yes, God, You joined me, but *I *say I am no longer joined?”

I pray this doesn’t come across as argumentative, perhaps you didn’t really mean that we could “end a marriage” but simply meant that it isn’t always gravely sinful to file for a civil divorce. In this case we would agree with what the Church holds up as True.

It is just that there are many, many professing-to-be Catholics who do believe that you are “single again” or an “ex-spouse” or “no longer married” after a civil divorce. This is a lie that we must fight against.

May God bless you Rence.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[mellowcalico]

Hello Mellowcalico, I am so very sorry that you and your daughter have had to go through all of this.

It is difficult to view you as the “abandoning spouse” in your situation. If he is persisting in this sin then he is not a truly repentant “prodigal spouse” who you would welcome home with open arms as the father welcomed home the prodigal son.

As for the question of validity, it sounds like your heart is seeking truth rather than “seeking annulment” even though your words say you are “seeking annulment.” It sounds like you have not “divorced” him in your heart even though you refer to him as your “ex husband.” You seem to be remaining faithful to him (you say you are not dating anyone or have any interest in dating). I don’t know your heart there but obviously God does.

It doesn’t sound like your husband (the marriage is still presumed valid) even intended exclusivity at the time of marriage. If this is true then you two were never validly married. God doesn’t “force” two into one flesh. If he had no intent of being faithful to you for life then this is simply not a marriage. (Canon law experts please correct me if I am wrong here.)

I obviously do not have all the facts and do not want to pretend to judge your specific marital status though.

My only advise is to lay all the information out there for the tribunal. Even the information that would indicate that he did indeed intend to be faithful to you for life (if there is any… other than his vows).

I would really have to be sure that my spouse did not intend to be faithful for life… that she knew she could and would have relationships outside of our marriage and just flat out lied to me that she was going to be faithful. If I truly did believe this without being clouded by a desire to enter a new relationship with some other woman, then I might be confident in the American tribunal’s ruling that my marriage wasn’t valid.

Please know that you and your family truly are in my prayers.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

Yes, you hit the nail on the head–I am just looking for the truth. I want to know if the sacrament of marriage ever happened. I’ve talked to my priest about it and he was relieved I wasn’t looking to remarry, etc. I understand that in the eyes of God I am still married, even if (for legal purposes) I am not.

I am nervous about the tribunal, but it is what it is. I am already resigned to be happy with whatever truth they find. I feel terrible about the divorce (mainly for my daughter since she is truly the innocent victim of this). Oddly, this whole divorce process has brought me closer to God and my faith. It’s been rough for me too and I’ve found solace in prayer and even found a Saint that I take comfort in asking to pray for me.

Anyway, thanks for your words of kindness and your prayers.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Yes, you hit the nail on the head–I am just looking for the truth. I want to know if the sacrament of marriage ever happened. I’ve talked to my priest about it and he was relieved I wasn’t looking to remarry, etc. I understand that in the eyes of God I am still married, even if (for legal purposes) I am not.

I am nervous about the tribunal, but it is what it is. I am already resigned to be happy with whatever truth they find. I feel terrible about the divorce (mainly for my daughter since she is truly the innocent victim of this). Oddly, this whole divorce process has brought me closer to God and my faith. It’s been rough for me too and I’ve found solace in prayer and even found a Saint that I take comfort in asking to pray for me.

Anyway, thanks for your words of kindness and your prayers.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Divorce can be a healing process when followed by the Tribunal process that while scary is a gift given Scripturally and Traditionally to us by the His Bride, the Church. We must remember what the Lord said about the Church - “the gates of Hell shall not prevail.” But it seems that some are claiming just that has happenned.

 

[hurting]

Hello Hurting,

First, you are in my prayers. Second, try this link…

marysadvocates.org/shop/index.php?dispatch=categories.view&category_id=165

There is also an opportunity to purchase an absolutely amazing book (The Gift of Self) that every abandoned spouse should have (priests should also read it and then be giving this book to abandoned spouses… and those who do the abandoning).

Third… Yes, one of the “big problems” is this notion that a civil divorce deals “merely with the civil effects of marriage.”

Really!?! So, it is a “merely civil effect” to go before what St. Paul called the “unjust” and “unbelievers” and “legally” force a husband or wife out of the marital home and into a life of celibacy? It is a “merely civil effect” to tear children away from their faithful Catholic mother or father where they cry every night either missing mommy or missing daddy? It is a “merely civil effect” to bounce children back and forth like ping pong balls between “two separate worlds.” It is a “merely civil effect” to teach your children that you can abandon your spouse for no morally licit reason, force a civil divorce on her and then be a faithful Catholic who receives Holy Communion?

I have started to wonder if priests would understand this better if one day they were told, “Oh, by the way, you cannot celebrate Mass anymore or administer any of the Sacraments. But please don’t worry… you are still a priest. We are only talking about the ‘merely civil effects’ of your priesthood.”

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

Thanks for the prayers. I am convinced that the ignorance to which I allude above approaches willful. None of the three clergy with whom I spoke could conceptualize the absolute havoc my divorce has wrought on the lives of my sons and myself. It is the children who carry the cross of divorce - and there is a firmer stand the Church could take but will not.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Thanks for the prayers. I am convinced that the ignorance to which I allude above approaches willful. None of the three clergy with whom I spoke could conceptualize the absolute havoc my divorce has wrought on the lives of my sons and myself. It is the children who carry the cross of divorce - and there is a firmer stand the Church could take but will not.

I think they do conceptualize it. We must be careful not to judge the intentions of others as this is a sin of pride. Not all priests have degrees in pastoral counseling. In other words when it comes down to the real nitty-gritty of very difficult situations it may be wise to seek out one that has more experience and advanced education in this field. Otherwise most likely you will find a very busy man who is balancing a lot of things trying to be a jack of all trades. I do not say that uncharitably I just believe that most laypeople do not have any idea what it takes to run a parish or even a portion of it. It is very difficult to specialize in one area and have all the facts in every single relationship in the parish that is having problems and in cases like this that is exactly what is being asked. After all, it is really easy to sit here and say yes, that person is an abandoned spouse but how do we really know - we are reading words on a screen. We do not know what drove anyone to do what they did. We are simply not allowed to condemn anyone for intent. That is the way it is and it is Catholic teaching.

If you would like a list of priests that can do pastoral counseling in your area contact your Archdiocese or contact the local Catholic university and their program may be able to get you in touch with some resources as well. These men will be able to help place these kinds of talks within the realm of counseling as well. Spiritual Direction is a slightly different animal by the way then pastoral counseling and yes by the way laypeople can do both.

I am saying this because maybe in some of these cases a good pastoral counselor/spiritual director may help facilitate some of these conversations in a more diplomatic way or may help one or both of the participants to see what the cause of the breakdown was and if it can be fixed. It is possible that one of the two people was abusive and never realized.

I get hesitant when I start seeing Sciptures thrown around as a weapon. This is a major flag red for me. It is for the Bishops as well. They have written many statements on it in regards to emotional abuse. Just some food for thought.

 

[Rence]

If a man is “living like a married person” then what does that look like with his wife?

I don’t understand the above question with regards to “what does that look like with his wife”. Living like a married person means that neither party can date others. They have to live as if they were still married. In other words, unless an anullment is granted, they have to be alone.

Do you disagree with Dr. Javier Hervada, Holder of the Chair of canon law,
Faculties of Law and Canon Law, University of Navarra, Pamplona…

What are the just reasons for separation?

I agree that there may be many different reasons for separation and that at the point that the home becomes a battlefield, it’ better to separate than make everyone (including the children) victims of a battlefield.
FCGeorge;9013983:

What do a married man’s vows before God commit him to?

When a man takes wedding vows he is called to be committed to marriage. In an imperfect world that doesn’t always happen.

Do you really believe that man has the power to “end a marriage?” That man can somehow separate what God joins? How does that happen?

That’s the point: real marriages don’t end. If a marriage has ended, and people have separated, something lacked (perhaps intent, commitment) in the original vows in either or both parties.

Our Catechism teaches that divorce is…
DIVORCE: The claim that the indissoluble marriage bond validly entered into between a man and a woman is broken. A civil dissolution of the marriage contract (divorce) does not free persons from a valid marriage before God; remarriage would not be morally licit (2382; cf. 1650).

No one is arguing that the Church teaches that marriages are valid until and unless proven invalid, and until and unless an annullment is granted. The rules of the Church call divorced couples to live as if they were still married (can’t date other people, have to be alone) until that annullment is granted.

Our Catechism also says that divorce is a “grave offense” (2384) and divorce is “immoral” (2385).

I understand that a civil

divorce could be morally licit in certain situations when there are no other alternatives (i.e. legal separation that could provide the same protections), but when is it ever morally licit to claim in my heart that I am no longer married to the one to whom God joined me to?

You got it right: civil divore could be morally liity in certain situations when there are no other alternatives. One of those situations is when one is not going to be part of that relationship anymore. It does happen that one person will say that in their heart they are no longer married to the one they married, and if they are bent on not having anything to do with that relationship anymore, there is little outsiders can do to change that. In fact, in my lil corner of the world, I note that outside interference only makes matters worse.

When is it ever okay to say, "Yes, God, You

joined me, but *I *say I am no longer joined?"

When the parties never had a valid marriage to begin with.

I pray this doesn’t come across as argumentative, perhaps you didn’t really mean that we could “end a marriage” but simply meant that it isn’t always gravely sinful to file for a civil divorce. In this case we would agree with what the Church holds up as True.

I mean what I said. When one (or both parties) decide they want nothing to do with the relationship, and say it’s over, it usually is. There is no point in trying to trap/force someone to stay in the relationship when it’s not where they are going to be. It’s better for the health of everyone involved to move on with their lives and not try to compell the other. There is no reason to live in a battlefield. It’s not healthy for either party and it’s not healthy for the kids. Marriage takes two. It doesn’t work when only one wants it to work.
The Church requires that both parties live chastely as if they were still married, until an annulment is granted. If one wants to be in communion with the Church, they have to honor those rules. But there is little anyone can do to enforce that requirement and we see evidence of that today.

 

[FCGeorge]

Quote:
Originally Posted by FCGeorge
If a man is “living like a married person” then what does that look like with his wife?

I don’t understand the above question with regards to “what does that look like with his wife”. Living like a married person means that neither party can date others. They have to live as if they were still married. In other words, unless an anullment is granted, they have to be alone.

When two people give themselves to each other in Holy Matrimony and God joins them… there is more than, “Hey, we agree to not date other people.” For a Christian, “being married” includes striving to love your spouse as Christ loves the Church. “Living like a married person” includes a willingness to live like a married person. It is not always possible to do this (our spouse may not want it), but it is always possible to have a heart that is willing to do this. Perhaps it may take repentance on the part of my prodigal spouse. Perhaps it may take my willingness to repent of a grave sin that I had before refused to admit. It is always possible to have a heart that is Christ-like in its readiness to open the door to reconciliation.

That’s the point: real marriages don’t end. If a marriage has ended, and people have separated, something lacked (perhaps intent, commitment) in the original vows in either or both parties.

This is becoming a very popular way of looking at divorce in the annulmentality of many inside the Church today. No. Jesus said plainly that whosoever divorces and marries another commits adultery. This is because the one who divorces is really still married. They are really still married because they really were married… validly married.

This notion that any time a marriage breaks down and a civil divorce happens it is automatic proof that there really must never have been a valid marriage to begin with… is a lie from the father of all lies. It causes people to think, “Oh, I therefore am not sinning by ‘marrying’ this other lady because I must never have really been married to that first one.” “Why wasn’t I married to the first one?” “Well, obviously I wasn’t because we are now divorced. Something must surely have been missing. It surely isn’t that I have sinned.”

For this modern way of thinking to be true we need Jesus to have said, “Whosoever divorces his first wife proves that he was never really married to her and is therefore free to marry someone else without it being adultery.”

It does happen that one person will say that in their heart they are no longer married to the one they married, and if they are bent on not having anything to do with that relationship anymore, there is little outsiders can do to change that.

I don’t see people asking “outsiders to change that.” Rather, asking the Church to, out of true charity for the sinner’s soul, call it what it is… a grave sin. Then, maybe the sinner will eventually see a need to repent of the sin. This is why St. Peter went out at Pentecost and plainly told the people that they crucified Jesus, whom God had made both Lord and Christ. This charitable truth “pierced their hearts” and led many to salvation.

Originally Posted by FCGeorge
When is it ever okay to say, “Yes, God, You joined me, but I say I am no longer joined?”

When the parties never had a valid marriage to begin with.

If there is never a “valid marriage to begin with” then God didn’t join them. If God didn’t join them then they can’t rightly say, “God, You joined me.”

When one (or both parties) decide they want nothing to do with the relationship, and say it’s over, it usually is.

Again, the marriage is not over when one or both parties say it is over. Neither party has that power. It is very important that as faithful Catholics we use language that upholds the Truth of the indissolubility of marriage.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[Rence]

When two people give themselves to each other in Holy Matrimony and God joins them… there is more than, “Hey, we agree to not date other people.” For a Christian, “being married” includes striving to love your spouse as Christ loves the Church. “Living like a married person” includes a willingness to live like a married person. It is not always possible to do this (our spouse may not want it), but it is always possible to have a heart that is willing to do this. Perhaps it may take repentance on the part of my prodigal spouse. Perhaps it may take my willingness to repent of a grave sin that I had before refused to admit. It is always possible to have a heart that is Christ-like in its readiness to open the door to reconciliation.

Not only does it takes two to make a marriage work, it takes two willing parties. If one is not willing, it’s not going to happen. The “prodigal spouse” has to be willing to repent.

This is becoming a very popular way of looking at divorce in the annulmentality of many inside the Church today. No. Jesus said plainly that whosoever divorces and marries another commits adultery. This is because the one who divorces is really still married. They are really still married because they really were married… validly married.

People who get annullments were never validly married to begin with.

This notion that any time a marriage breaks down and a civil divorce happens it is automatic proof that there really must never have been a valid marriage to begin with… is a lie from the father of all lies. It causes people to think, “Oh, I therefore am not sinning by ‘marrying’ this other lady because I must never have really been married to that first one.” “Why wasn’t I married to the first one?” “Well, obviously I wasn’t because we are now divorced. Something must surely have been missing. It surely isn’t that I have sinned.”

Civil divorce has nothing to do with Sacramental marriage. If people think they are ‘home free’ because they have gotten a civil divorce, then they weren’t serious about the Sacrament in the first place…or they lost faith in it.

For this modern way of thinking to be true we need Jesus to have said, “Whosoever divorces his first wife proves that he was never really married to her and is therefore free to marry someone else without it being adultery.”

Well, you can’t really have it both ways. Either the Church speaks for Christ or it doesn’t. If the Church recognizes the validity of annullments then Jesus does to.

I don’t see people asking “outsiders to change that.” Rather, asking the Church to, out of true charity for the sinner’s soul, call it what it is… a grave sin.

I don’t think it has anything to do with charity for the sinner’s soul. I think it has to do with the spouse who is opposed to the divorce not being able to let go.

Then, maybe the sinner will eventually see a need to repent of the sin. This is why St. Peter went out at Pentecost and plainly told the people that they crucified Jesus, whom God had made both Lord and Christ. This charitable truth “pierced their hearts” and led many to salvation.

We an always hope that people will repent by just hearing that they’ve sinned.

If there is never a “valid marriage to begin with” then God didn’t join them. If God didn’t join them then they can’t rightly say, “God, You joined me.”

Yes, I agree with that.

Again, the marriage is not over when one or both parties say it is over. Neither party has that power. It is very important that as faithful Catholics we use language that upholds the Truth of the indissolubility of marriage.

They do have that right and power. A marriage can’t be a marriage if both parties don’t call it a marriage and commit to the health of the marriage.

 

[EvelynEVF]

“I think it has to do with the spouse who is opposed to the divorce not being able to let go.”

I’m quite certain this is the case at least sometimes.

I also wonder if the abandoned spouse (not focusing on any poster!) put as much effort into counseling and spiritual direction, etc, before the other party decided to leave as they do trying to hang on after the fact. I would expect, coming from a parish with great clergy whom I know personally, that people who let their pastor in on what is happening and ask him to be a part of it, would not be left in the cold when the divorce/separation happens. but I do realize that some people go to massive parishes where it would be very hard to be individually acquainted with a priest/pastor/deacon.

My ex denied anything was wrong for years and only made a pretense of making changes after I raised divorce as a possibility. Unfortunately, he fell in with a “Christian” counselor who believed in preserving the marriage 100%, despite abuse going on. Not helpful. After I left, he became the shocked and aggrieved abandoned party who had done no wrong and would take me back in a heartbeat if only I would repent.

So one would understand why I have a negative reaction to some of the posts here. They ring those stalker bells.

My point in all that is to suggest that we don’t need damage control as much as we need proactive spiritual help, and that those of us who didn’t want to be divorced need to be beating down the rectory and chancery doors asking for help before* it all hits the fan.*

 

[vsedriver]

My point in all that is to suggest that we don’t need damage control as much as we need proactive spiritual help, and that those of us who didn’t want to be divorced need to be beating down the rectory and chancery doors asking for help before it all hits the fan.

Believe me, if I had known our marriage was in trouble I would have been camping out in Father’s living room. But I had no idea. I knew my husband was unhappy but he never said why and I just assumed that a year of unemployment was causing his distress. Add to that going back to work and working 7 days straight for 2 months, well I just assumed stress was getting to him. I worked hard to make things good for him at home. However, I didn’t know that he had reconnected with old high school girlfriends on facebook while unemployeed.

Apparently I no longer measured up to what he thought I should be. Unfortunately he didn’t tell me this till the night he left. Then he refused to seek any form of counseling including talking to the priest. As the major bread winner I had no choice but to file for divorce as it was the only way to insure financial support of my children. So even abandoned spouses find they have to file for divorce.

By the way, all our friends and family members, including his, were shocked by his walk out. So I guess I wasn’t the only one who was clueless.

 

[joanofarc2008]

“I think it has to do with the spouse who is opposed to the divorce not being able to let go.”

I’m quite certain this is the case at least sometimes.

I also wonder if the abandoned spouse (not focusing on any poster!) put as much effort into counseling and spiritual direction, etc, before the other party decided to leave as they do trying to hang on after the fact. I would expect, coming from a parish with great clergy whom I know personally, that people who let their pastor in on what is happening and ask him to be a part of it, would not be left in the cold when the divorce/separation happens. but I do realize that some people go to massive parishes where it would be very hard to be individually acquainted with a priest/pastor/deacon.

My ex denied anything was wrong for years and only made a pretense of making changes after I raised divorce as a possibility. Unfortunately, he fell in with a “Christian” counselor who believed in preserving the marriage 100%, despite abuse going on. Not helpful. After I left, he became the shocked and aggrieved abandoned party who had done no wrong and would take me back in a heartbeat if only I would repent.

So one would understand why I have a negative reaction to some of the posts here. They ring those stalker bells.

My point in all that is to suggest that we don’t need damage control as much as we need proactive spiritual help, and that those of us who didn’t want to be divorced need to be beating down the rectory and chancery doors asking for help before** it all hits the fan.

I was beginning to wonder some of the same things. I think some of the things that I have read hear minus the she is an adulteress although the accusation has been made are things my ex has said about me. Like I said there are two sides and it must be difficult for the presbyter to sort that out.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Believe me, if I had known our marriage was in trouble I would have been camping out in Father’s living room. But I had no idea. I knew my husband was unhappy but he never said why and I just assumed that a year of unemployment was causing his distress.

If I am ever privileged to marry “again,” I will insist on mutual spiritual direction so that nobody gets to be unhappy and not say why. I’m so sorry things turned out so awfully for you.

 

[hurting]

“I think it has to do with the spouse who is opposed to the divorce not being able to let go.”

I’m quite certain this is the case at least sometimes.

I also wonder if the abandoned spouse (not focusing on any poster!) put as much effort into counseling and spiritual direction, etc, before the other party decided to leave as they do trying to hang on after the fact. I would expect, coming from a parish with great clergy whom I know personally, that people who let their pastor in on what is happening and ask him to be a part of it, would not be left in the cold when the divorce/separation happens. but I do realize that some people go to massive parishes where it would be very hard to be individually acquainted with a priest/pastor/deacon.

My ex denied anything was wrong for years and only made a pretense of making changes after I raised divorce as a possibility. Unfortunately, he fell in with a “Christian” counselor who believed in preserving the marriage 100%, despite abuse going on. Not helpful. After I left, he became the shocked and aggrieved abandoned party who had done no wrong and would take me back in a heartbeat if only I would repent.**

So one would understand why I have a negative reaction to some of the posts here. They ring those stalker bells.

My point in all that is to suggest that we don’t need damage control as much as we need proactive spiritual help, and that those of us who didn’t want to be divorced need to be beating down the rectory and chancery doors asking for help before it all hits the fan.

No doubt that the spiritual guidance is needed before things go completely haywire, but it does not seem like too much to ask for the Church to weigh in as its own rules dictate at the point of crisis. Your stalker implication (and it is just that) is thoroughly unfounded.

 

[FCGeorge]

I also wonder if the abandoned spouse (not focusing on any poster!) put as much effort into counseling and spiritual direction, etc, before the other party decided to leave as they do trying to hang on after the fact.

Hello EvelynEVF, hope you are well.

I agree that some times the spouse who is abandoned should have put more “effort” into spiritual direction and counseling prior to the abandonment (as long as that “counseling” isn’t our modern therapeutic’s “My goal is to help you *feel *better.” Sadly, however, this is much of what “counseling” has become). I don’t think it can ever be “too late” to seek true counseling and spiritual direction.

Also, there are situations when a spouse just simply abandon’s his wife and shocks everyone. These situations seem to usually involve an unwillingness on the abandoner’s part to seek any form of joint spiritual direction or counseling. The, “It is too late!” cry serves as a fully functional deflector shield against any attempts. If the abandoner does seek counseling it is often only individual counseling and the counseling has a unstated and unadmitted goal of helping reduce guilt for abandoning the marriage. Guilt is the one mortal sin for the modern therapeutic. We can almost justify any action if it will help us eradicate guilt.

But, as Dr. Peter Kreeft has stated, “Guilt can be as proper for the soul as pain is for the body. It is good that I feel pain when I put my hand on a hot stove top. The pain prevents me from leaving my hand there and suffering more severe damage. Guilt helps prevent the *soul *from suffering more severe damage.” (I paraphrased there) The modern therapeutic, however, quickly works to try to eliminate the guilt in the abandoning spouse… because it will help him *feel *better (for the little while that is life on this earth.)

My ex denied anything was wrong for years and only made a pretense of making changes after I raised divorce as a possibility. Unfortunately, he fell in with a “Christian” counselor who believed in preserving the marriage 100%, despite abuse going on. Not helpful. After I left, he became the shocked and aggrieved abandoned party who had done no wrong and would take me back in a heartbeat if only I would repent.

EvelynEVF, please don’t answer this if it is too personal but I am sincerely curious how you would respond to this…

Your husband apparently is in some grave sin that makes your separation from him okay in your eyes (I’m not saying you are right or wrong… I do not know… I am just going to assume here that you are right). What would his true repentance from that sin look like? What would his true repentance look like to you?

If he truly repents of that sin then what will our Lord’s forgiveness of him look like? What will that do for your husband’s relationship with his Heavenly Spouse?

If he truly repents of that sin then what will your forgiveness of him look like? What will that do for your husband’s relationship with his earthly spouse?

When will his Heavenly Spouse close the door to reconciliation upon his true repentance? When will his earthly spouse close the door to reconcililiation upon his true repentance?

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[EvelynEVF]

. Your stalker implication (and it is just that) is thoroughly unfounded.

No, it’s not. I said I’m not talking about any particular poster, but about my own situation, where the ex continuing to pursue has taken on stalker-ish characteristics. I explained to Bryan way back in this thread that I have a hard time personally with some of what he writes because of how it resonates to my own situation in a Very Bad Way.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Hello EvelynEVF, hope you are well.

EvelynEVF, please don’t answer this if it is too personal but I am sincerely curious how you would respond to this…

Your husband apparently is in some grave sin that makes your separation from him okay in your eyes (I’m not saying you are right or wrong… I do not know… I am just going to assume here that you are right). What would his true repentance from that sin look like? What would his true repentance look like to you?

****Sorry, I still haven’t managed to make quoting work in blocks, so we’re stuck with asterisks. Repentance would begin with an honest admission of his sin, spelled out in black and white. Not, “What I did was acceptable for a husband who is head over his wife.” Or, “I was really unkind and made a lot of mistakes.” Or “I was selfish.” No excuses. Just an articulation of what he did and admission that it was gravely sinful.

If he truly repents of that sin then what will our Lord’s forgiveness of him look like? What will that do for your husband’s relationship with his Heavenly Spouse?

********I would love to see it. After I left him, he became hyper-pious, but that faded.

If he truly repents of that sin then what will your forgiveness of him look like? What will that do for your husband’s relationship with his earthly spouse?

********I firmly believe that once he recognizes the horror of what he did, he will understand at a visceral level why I had to leave, and he will be utterly broken for some period of time. If he truly sees what he did, and recognize what is at the root of it, he would not for a moment want to consider living in the same house with me, for my own protection.

When will his Heavenly Spouse close the door to reconciliation upon his true repentance? When will his earthly spouse close the door to reconcililiation upon his true repentance?

****Neither of us will. But even the truest reconciliation in this case could never safely look like a marriage. Even if the tribunals decide that they do not have enough evidence to rule in favor of nullity, I will still never live with him again as his wife.

Of course I’m an anonymous internet nobody, but my clergy know and support the decision and I do have the permission of the Ordinary.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[FCGeorge]

Hello Evelyn, I hope you are well. Please do not take these questions as trying to diminish what you have been through. I imagine that I have not been through anything like it and can’t possibly understand completely what it was like.

A couple more questions if you will permit…

Repentance would begin with an honest admission of his sin, spelled out in black and white. Not, “What I did was acceptable for a husband who is head over his wife.” Or, “I was really unkind and made a lot of mistakes.” Or “I was selfish.” No excuses. Just an articulation of what he did and admission that it was gravely sinful.

How do you see the admitting, for example, that “I was selfish” as making an “excuse?”

It seems more that “making an excuse” would be, “Sure, I admit I didn’t do this for you, and I did that to you, but I had a very good reason! It really is *your *fault I *had to *do it.”

I am not saying that your husband was or wasn’t making excuses. I have no idea. I am just trying to understand how what you said above is making an “excuse.”

When will his Heavenly Spouse close the door to reconciliation upon his true repentance? When will his earthly spouse close the door to reconcililiation upon his true repentance?

****Neither of us will. But even the truest reconciliation in this case could never safely look like a marriage. Even if the tribunals decide that they do not have enough evidence to rule in favor of nullity, I will still never live with him again as his wife.

Can. 1153
§2. In all cases, when the cause for the separation ceases, conjugal living must be restored unless ecclesiastical authority has established otherwise.

I do not like quoting canon law because it is not infallible and this should be written on our hearts anyway. “Reconciliation” with our Heavenly Bridegroom always includes entering back into communion with Him. He is always longing for our true repentance in order to forgive us and restore this relationship.

Has your Ordinary actually told you that your conjugal living need not ever be restored even if he truly repents of the grave sin(s)? Again, I am not trying to fight or argue or anything, I would just like to understand what is being taught and practiced out there.

Of course I’m an anonymous internet nobody, but my clergy know and support the decision and I do have the permission of the Ordinary.

First of all, you are way more than an “anonymous internet nobody.” You seem like a extremely intelligent woman who has gone through some very difficult times and probably spent many, many hours in prayer.

We were talking about this on another forum. I haven’t actually heard of someone seeking permission from the Ordinary. Did you actually receive it from the Bishop himself or do they point you to someone else at the diocese?

Did either or both your clergy and bishop meet with your husband also? It seems that often times the spouse in the midst of the grave sin refuses to meet with the priest together (the whole “darkness does not like the light” thing I suppose). Maybe he refused to meet because he insisted he was not sinning?

Not that I assume it matters to you but I have even more respect for you after hearing that you did approach the Ordinary! May God bless you and may the tribunals reach the Truth about your marriage.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[EvelynEVF]

How do you see the admitting, for example, that “I was selfish” as making an “excuse?”

******Because it is a way to dodge naming the actual sin, and just using a vague category.

Can. 1153
§2. In all cases, when the cause for the separation ceases, conjugal living must be restored unless ecclesiastical authority has established otherwise.

*********Yes, and what I’m saying is that the cause for separation will never cease.

Has your Ordinary actually told you that your conjugal living need not ever be restored even if he truly repents of the grave sin(s)?

*****Yep. He was quite shocked when I asked him under what conditions the Church would insist I return. His response was that if I did not feel safe, I should not return, no matter what words were said. Judging by his reaction, one would suppose that he was not often asked this.

*****And here I stop, because I do not share identifying information and I don’t want to accidentally cross that line. All anybody really needs to know is that my clergy have known what was going on since long before separation and divorce and I had their full support for every step I took.