J
joanofarc2008
Guest
I am beginning to wonder if it is possible for someone to abuse someone else and become oblivious to the fact that they are an abuser? This is something I have asked about my own situation for quite a while.
- Status
F
FCGeorge
Guest
Hello Evelyn,
I definitely do not want to ask you anything else that will give away any identifying information but I do wonder if the priest and/or the bishop who determined the separation was morally licit did indeed meet with you both… maybe not at the same time necessarily if that would have been physically dangerous for you.
If you feel that answering this would give away indentity, in a way I do not see, then please do not hesitate to tell me.
I am just trying to understand what the practice is in a case like this.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
I definitely do not want to ask you anything else that will give away any identifying information but I do wonder if the priest and/or the bishop who determined the separation was morally licit did indeed meet with you both… maybe not at the same time necessarily if that would have been physically dangerous for you.
If you feel that answering this would give away indentity, in a way I do not see, then please do not hesitate to tell me.
I am just trying to understand what the practice is in a case like this.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
E
EvelynEVF
Guest
I think the answer is yes, in that a person can justify his sin to himself for so long that his heart is hardened and he really believes it was okay or at least not so bad. I am sure that my ex was truly flabbergasted when he read my testimony.
B
bre
Guest
Lord, hear our prayers
F
FCGeorge
Guest
An abuser would typically rationalize and justify his/her abuse so that it is not sinful in his/her own eyes and is somehow not harming his/her children.
An abandoner of a marriage also typically rationalize’s and justify’s his/her decision to abandon a marriage and force their children into bouncing back and forth between homes like ping pong balls between paddles.
Saul’s own eyes were covered with scales as he was persecuting in horrible fashion the Christians of his day. He was literally confronted by Truth Himself and the scales would fall from his eyes… and well… St. Paul was the result.
Matthew 18:15-17
15But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. 16And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
This refusal to admit one’s sin is not new to the modern “abuser” or “abandoner.” Our Blessed Lord gave instructions for a second step in case the “offender” “will not hear thee.” He even gave a third step in case the “offender” “will not hear them.”
The third step is to tell the Church. I pray that the abandoned spouse or the abused spouse will exhaust these three steps for the sake of their spouse who is in the midst of a grave sin that they do not see. A grave sin that they are blinded to because of their pride, selfishness, lust or whatever is causing the scales to cover their eyes. The Church then needs to boldly hold up the Truth so that the scales will fall from the eyes of the abuser or abandoner who is in the midst of a grave sin.
We, as spouses who are to love the ones to whom God joined us as Christ loved the Church, should follow our Lord’s instructions here… not because we “cannot let go” or “are weak and cannot tolerate a little abuse”… but because we desire nothing more than our spouse to be embraced by our Lord forever in the eternal wedding banquet!
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
E
EvelynEVF
Guest
Bryan, I 'm sorry I missed this last night. I did answer your question, but then I guess when I was backtracking to remove identifiers, I erased more than necessary. My ex has avoided meeting with any Catholic who might be considered to have authority over him. He is also not Catholic, though he practices the Faith more than many Catholics do. His other church supports him fully, because they come from the perspective that divorce is always wrong, and that it is better to be abused than to disobey God.
I believe that one of the reasons he refuses to convert is that he doesn’t want to come under anyone’s authority. As a non-denominational Protestant, one can pick and choose.
J
joanofarc2008
Guest
As far as wishing one’s spouse to be forever reconciled to the Lord in the eternal wedding banquet. Personally I find it offensive to keep assuming that a person who has abused someone is a spouse in the eyes of the Lord. After all, if there is no valid marriage then this was a putative marriage and not a Sacramental spouse. This is why we owe it to ourselves to get a ruling from Holy Mother Church - His Bride on whether or not the marriage was Sacramental or not. Without that the “abandoned” spouse is only refusing one more avenue of help and healing that is open to him/her. This is not my opinion in every case but after four or five threads it certainly it is my opinion in this one.
E
EvelynEVF
Guest
An excellent point, JoanofArc. Most of this thread is moot if the marriage never existed.
J
joanofarc2008
Guest
Exactly but I have a feeling the next statement will be about the corruption of the decree of nullity tribunals and why we cannot possibly trust them.
By the way - so here is the rub - we should trust the Magisterium when the Bishop alone makes up the decision but when the Bishop sets up a Tribunal to investigate and the process is so detailed that it takes over a year we should not trust it. How about we just trust the Church in its entirety that the Lord said “The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against.”
C
cviolette
Guest
I would like to thank you for continuing to post on a very difficult subject. I know that some of the marriage at all cost post give me a feeling of hopelessness. Do I have to be miserable and emotionally unstable for the rest of my life because I made a stupid decision 20 years ago when i was messed up and God was not even part of my life.
F
FCGeorge
Guest
Isn’t abusing your spouse “disobeying God?” Sorry, I know we both understand it is, but yes, sadly, the world of Protestantism leaves no final authority other than my own interpretation of the Bible and if they interpret it to say that God wants a beaten spouse to stay put for their beaten, then by golly, who is going to tell them they are wrong? (While they live anyway ; ) Although in one sense they do have it right. The martyrs in the early Church and even martyrs today in the less-than-cushy world of America understood that it is even better to have your limbs torn off by lions than to disobey God. The limb-tearing lasts but a short while. Eternity lasts a little longer.
It isn’t sinful, however, to separate from your spouse for a truly morally licit reason. As long as I don’t claim that the marital bond is somehow broken. Our Church, the pillar and foundation of Truth, holds that Truth up. Their interpretation is not the pillar and foundation of Truth.
I have a sister-in-law and sister who both believe the other to be sinning. My sister-in-law said that she was going to approach my sister using the Bible’s instructions (Yes, she said “Bible” and not “Jesus”) Matthew 18:15-17. Well, the problem is that my sister-in-law is a “former” Catholic, former Baptist and now a non-denom free something and my sister is a Baptist. Who gets to speak for the “church” in the third step there? Where is the church? Good luck with that one sister-in-law.
Although we, sadly, have more than our share of of the “picking and choosing” cafeteria catholics in our Church.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
F
FCGeorge
Guest
Hello cviolette,
I pray that you will consider that one who chooses to honor the vows they spoke before God and remains faithful to a spouse who they have been forced to separate from, or have been abandoned by, does not need to remain miserable and emotionally unstable.
It certainly is a cross but that cross can become light as we allow Him to carry it through us. It is actually freeing. Deeply liberating. The Truth does set us free.
Before one of our retreats we were doing for our CCD kids a lady stopped me and said, “Bryan, you always seem so happy.” Well, I have many things to be thankful for. One does not happen to be a wife who chooses to love me or even remain with me, but there are so many other ways I have been blessed way beyond what I “deserve.” (I responded also to her that my children may not always agree with what she said; )
I have been deep down in the “I just want to let go of the wheel and hit those trees and let my life insurance take care of my wife and kids” valley and He took me by the hand (felt like “ear” sometimes) and lifted me out of it.
I cannot imagine having the peace and joy that He has blessed me with if I chose not to be faithful to my wife.
I know that people will encourage us to “seek an annulment.” The majority of priests I have talked to encouraged this (not because there was anything I told them that indicated my marriage was really not valid, but because they thought I would “feel better” if I were allowed to “marry” a woman who would choose to love me, and they wanted me to “feel better.”)
But the peace that it brings my children when they hear me lovingly talk about my wife (their mother) is priceless to me. My children are witnessing what saying “until death do us part” means. My children are witnessing, although, definitely imperfect, what it means to choose to love someone even when they choose not to love you. My children are learning what it means for a husband to be faithful to his wife for life. My children are learning, although definitely imperfect, what it means to have faith, hope and love.
I pray my pre-teen daughter is given confidence that she too will have a husband who will choose to love her for life. I pray her younger brother will learn that a true man of God honors the marital commitments he makes to the wife of his youth. Even when they become difficult to honor.
I was blessed with a very faithful priest who tried telling me these things several years ago. I wasn’t exactly ready to sign at the “you are likely going to remain celebate for the rest of your life” dotted line but I am so very blessed to have had him in my life. He was able to see things that I couldn’t see at the time.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
S
Sillara
Guest
I think that this is a good portion of what the OP is trying to address. Divorce, unless there is an extremely serious reason, is a sin.
I
In_Spiration
Guest
FCGeorge, your persistent proclamation of the Truth is beyond admirable.
O
Oh_Charlotte
Guest
FCGeorge, I tend to think you would be better off accepting what is - your marriage is over because your wife isn’t seeing it your way (or the right way, perhaps). You are a victim of her free will. Acceptance is so important, IMO. I think it was Rence that said that here. At least a lot of what she said made sense. It can be tempting to hang on to what is impossible, and in that temptation to hang on, which requires so much concentrated effort, you can possibly lose sight of listening to God and knowing what His will is for your life, IMO. However, I admire your determination to stand for what seems to be the most godlike stance in your eyes, and I do think you are being much more polite than other strongly anti-all-divorce advocates here on the forum. So while I tend to disagree with your stance, I admire the godly way you take it. 
B
bre
Guest
Our Father, which art in Heaven
Hollowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done
On earth as it is in Heaven
Give us this day, our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us
Lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from evil
Amen
Oh my Jesus
Forgive us our sins
Save us from the fires of hell
And lead all souls to Heaven
Especially those in most need of thy mercy
Amen
Hail Mary, full of grace
The Lord is with thee
Blessed art thou amongst women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus
Holy Mary, Mother of God
Pray for us sinners
Now and at the hour of our deaths
Amen
Glory be to The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be
World without end
Amen
Hollowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done
On earth as it is in Heaven
Give us this day, our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us
Lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from evil
Amen
Oh my Jesus
Forgive us our sins
Save us from the fires of hell
And lead all souls to Heaven
Especially those in most need of thy mercy
Amen
Hail Mary, full of grace
The Lord is with thee
Blessed art thou amongst women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus
Holy Mary, Mother of God
Pray for us sinners
Now and at the hour of our deaths
Amen
Glory be to The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be
World without end
Amen
C
cviolette
Guest
It sounds like you are a wonderful father. I wish you the best. My only issue with your comments is that I do believe that some marriages are not valid are not sacramental. I can not see being a martyr to marriage that does not have God in it.
I
In_Spiration
Guest
"We are told but little of her childhood. She was married early in life to Patritius who held an official position in Tagaste. He was a pagan, though like so many at that period, his religion was no more than a name; his temper was violent and he appears to have been of dissolute habits. Consequently Monica’s married life was far from being a happy one, more especially as Patritius’s mother seems to have been of a like disposition with himself. There was of course a gulf between husband and wife; her almsdeeds and her habits of prayer annoyed him, but it is said that he always held her in a sort of reverence. Monica was not the only matron of Tagaste whose married life was unhappy, but, by her sweetness and patience, she was able to exercise a veritable apostolate amongst the wives and mothers of her native town; they knew that she suffered as they did, and her words and example had a proportionate effect.
Three children were born of this marriage, Augustine the eldest, Navigius the second, and a daughter, Perpetua. Monica had been unable to secure baptism for her children, and her grief was great when Augustine fell ill; in her distress she besought Patritius to allow him to be baptized; he agreed, but on the boy’s recovery withdrew his consent. All Monica’s anxiety now centred in Augustine; he was wayward and, as he himself tells us, lazy. He was sent to Madaura to school and Monica seems to have literally wrestled with God for the soul of her son. A great consolation was vouchsafed her — in compensation perhaps for all that she was to experience through Augustine — Patritius became a Christian."
Source: the Catholic Encyclopedia’s entry on St. Monica.
And we all know what ended up happening with St. Augustine…
Three children were born of this marriage, Augustine the eldest, Navigius the second, and a daughter, Perpetua. Monica had been unable to secure baptism for her children, and her grief was great when Augustine fell ill; in her distress she besought Patritius to allow him to be baptized; he agreed, but on the boy’s recovery withdrew his consent. All Monica’s anxiety now centred in Augustine; he was wayward and, as he himself tells us, lazy. He was sent to Madaura to school and Monica seems to have literally wrestled with God for the soul of her son. A great consolation was vouchsafed her — in compensation perhaps for all that she was to experience through Augustine — Patritius became a Christian."
Source: the Catholic Encyclopedia’s entry on St. Monica.
And we all know what ended up happening with St. Augustine…
O
Oh_Charlotte
Guest
I agree, cviolette! Not saying that is what Bryan is doing; I have no idea. But one must be careful about beign a martyr for anything but what God calls him to. For some personalities, it is an easy role to take, too. (I am not saying this about Bryan; I have no take on him in this way).
Your marriage reminds me of a friends. Clearly, for them, this is not a match made in heaven. She converted back to her faith and will not be intimate with him, some years now, because its not a marriage. He did finally do a civil marriage (he promised but did not move forward to marry her for many years; he didn’t need to becasue she was now trapped in need of a green card; he’d told her to quit her job and he’d get her the green card when they married, but he never made good, she got pregnant, no card, and she was trapped, in danger of beign deported without her child…) But now he doesn’t want to go to the trouble of annulment so they truly don’t ahve a marriage in the eyes of God so she refuses intimacy. However, their two boys love their Dad – not as much as Mom as he is a bit dysfunctional, but he is their Dad and they love him, and like any kids they enjoy having both their parents around. So for the sake of them, she does all she can to be wife-like in other ways and keep peace best she can so the family can remain intact. For her, also, for the sake of the kids, its “not yet” when it comes to leaving. …
F
FCGeorge
Guest
Oh Charlotte,
Thank you for your concern and kind words. In order for me to accept your advise above, however, I would need to start believing several things…
- The prophet Malachi’s message either really wasn’t from God or doesn’t really apply to me… "Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant."
- That the Holy Spirit didn’t really inspire St. Paul to write
1 Corinthians 7:39 A woman is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth;
And
Romans 7:2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. - That either the Holy Catholic Church is not the pillar and foundation of Truth, or, The Holy Catholic Church doesn’t really mean this…
*1640 Thus the marriage bond has been established by God himself in such a way that a marriage concluded and consummated between baptized persons can never be dissolved. This bond, which results from the free human act of the spouses and their consummation of the marriage, is a reality, henceforth irrevocable, and gives rise to a covenant guaranteed by God’s fidelity. The Church does not have the power to contravene this disposition of divine wisdom. * - That I really meant, “Until death or your abandoning of me do us part” and “as long as we both shall live… together” when I said my vows… or that we simply do not need to let our “yes” or “I do” mean “yes” or “I do.”
- That when Jesus said… Matthew 19:26 …With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
He really meant, “… but with God all things, accept for healing your marriage, are possible.” - That God can no longer do what the prophet Ezekiel said he could…
Ezekiel 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. - Man really can separate back into two what God joins into one.
- That my children will be better off if I took your advise.
Let’s say that you were once in a grave sin. Of course we recognize that this sin separated you from God. Now, let’s say that you become “heartily sorry” and confess your sin and firmly resolve to right the wrong and ammend your life.
What does “Godlike” love and forgiveness of you look like to you?
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
- Status