po18guy
Well-known member
Amen. Sadly, a study of the LDS god reveals him to be a different entity than the Lord God of Israel. This is the elephant in the LDS living room. A different god.
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ricko
Guest
Some of the comments by Catholics here have really surprised me. Though not as bad, it reminds me of the abuse I received on an infamous anti-Catholic forum. I for one am thankful for the vistors to this site and we should respect their views even though we disagree with them. If we run them all off because of our insults who would we evangelize to?
Let’s remember that as Catholics we have a duty to hold ourselves to a high standard and present Catholicism to all with kindness and charity.
Let’s remember that as Catholics we have a duty to hold ourselves to a high standard and present Catholicism to all with kindness and charity.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
Likewise, their Jesus is a different Jesus. All of which raises the question ~ what is the origin of this other “God” and this other “Jesus”?
Also, there is warning in the Bible about the introduction of new scriptures ~ the sort of thing the Book of Mormon represents.
Galatians 1
The Book of Mormon was allegedly received from an angel. According to the above reference, we should reject the Book of Mormon. (The Koran, also allegedly received from an angel, should be rejected for the same reason.)
po18guy
Well-known member
Therefore, the perfect LDS candidate? Just wondering.
po18guy
Well-known member
Angels are spirits. Therefore, evil spirits can mimic them. This has rather clearly occurred in the cases you cite. And John warned of many antichrists, who were even then in the world.
All we can do is pray that the Holy Spirit illumines their hearts to the truth.
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Jash
Guest
This post is in response to the analysis of D&C 84:1-5. You may want to read his post before reading this.
Best Wishes.
-Jash
- “The Doctrine and Covenants is a collection of divine revelations and inspired declarations given for the establishment and regulation of the kingdom of God on the earth in the last days.” (Source) It does not follow that all doctrine within the doctrine and covenants is prophesy. However since this section is largely accepted as prophesy within the LDS church we will treat it as such.
- A more careful reading of D&C 84:3 shows it was the Missouri temple lot (not temple) that was to be dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith. This dedication occurred on August 3, 1831 and therefore has been fulfilled. See the Temple Lot Section at Link for more details.
- D&C 84:4-5 have yet to be fulfilled. The Lords statement “this generation” does not necessarily refer to only those that were living at that time. Generation is a generic term that has several other meanings. One of these meanings is “a form, type, class, etc., of objects existing at the same time and having many similarities or developed from a common model or ancestor: a new generation of computers.”(Source) Following this definition we may consider the use of the word generation to mean all of those belonging to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since its restoration.
Best Wishes.
-Jash
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Add the word “generation” to the list of words that Mormons have redefined. (an ongoing list jash)
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why_me
Guest
Joseph’s murder was a mistake by the mob. They believed that with the death of Joseph and his brother the lds church would fall. They were sadly mistaken. The lds church became stronger. The mob also turned Joseph into a martyr.
I am sure that the mob understood their mistake soon after the murder. Was it an act of god? Who knows. But it certainly was an act of satan that Joseph was murdered.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Well, 4 different Mormons, 4 different answers. It appears you guys need to get together and learn what you believe before sharing with the world.
- The generation has not passed yet, 160+ years later.
- It was a commandment not a prophesy.
- Dedications are by mouth and not by hand.
- He was dedicating the lot not the temple.
The Mormons were driven out of Jackson County in 1833. As for the generation stretch, when a generation was spoken about in real scriptures, it was usually 40 years.
Joseph Smith prophesied he would be alive at the second coming. (Doctrines and Covenants, 112).
In 1843, Smith predicted that if the US would not redress the wrongs suffered by the mormons in the state of Missouri, then “in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted” (History of the Church, Vol. 5, p.394).
One failed prophesy, makes a false prophet.
In D&C 3:4 (given in 1828), we find this: “For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him…”
Joseph Smith gave a speech in May 1844, Smith proclaimed this: “I have more to boast of than any man ever had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a church together since the days of Adam.…Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”
Just 30 days from making that boast, on June 27, 1844; Joseph Smith was shot in Carthage jail.
John Taylor, who became the third President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, made these statements concerning the death of Joseph Smith:
Joseph Smith died in a gunfight with a gun in his hand.
Jesus went to His death for all, asking the Father to forgive them.
Just food for thought…
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
I am very glad you brought up speculations.
I have 4 simple questions to ask about a Mormon speculation concerning the Catholic Church. Mormons speculate that a “great” apostasy occured putting the Church in a position of total and complete corruption to the exent it lost all authority.
- Who started this great apostasy?
- Where did this great apostasy take place?
- When did this great apostasy happen?
- Who defended against the great apostasy?
The Catholic Church was in it’s early stages and grew over time. It was under persecution for about 300 years. Many were martyred during that time. My point being, the Church did not have control over all sects, nations or religious groups.
The Jews were accused of killing the Messiah. Surely, had a great apostasy taken place, they would have used that information to vindicate themselves by claiming Jesus was not who He said He was. There is nothing in Jewish records that speaks of a great apostasy.
The Romans tried desperately to crush Christianity. They studied the religion in order to combat it more effectively. Julian the Apostate misunderstood the Lord’s prophesy about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem to say the temple would never be rebuilt. Julian tried, unsuccessfully, to rebuild that temple to prove the Lord’s prophesy false. Surely, the Romans would not have overlooked a total and complete apostasy.
There were many pagans in those days. No Jewish, Roman or pagan historians ever mention a great apostasy.
Surely such an event that would have been a great impact on Christianity would have been recorded, somewhere by someone.
I’ve heard numerous Mormons claim it was a coverup by the Catholic Church. Yet, 1800 years later, Joseph Smith was able to uncover the “truth”? I’m afraid this does not make sense my friend.
I’d be interested in viewing any documentation that you can present. I can provide a lot of documentation showing the authority of the apostolic successors being asserted by the early Church fathers since the first century.
One final point on this subject that I would like to make. What do Mormons call those who leave the Mormon Church and convert to other faiths? I’ve seen Mormons on these forums call ex-Mormons who became Catholics apostates. Does this mean the Mormon Church suffering a great apostasy or an ongoing apostasy?
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
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MelanieAnne
Guest
Prodigal Son,
“The Great Apostasy”, similar to the Book of Mormon, is an elaborate fiction created by Joseph Smith to lend credibility to the religion he founded. Mormonism mimics Christianity in some ways, which confuses and at times even dupes those who do not delve too deeply into the details. But in the end it is a non-Christian, polytheistic faith.
The question about “The Great Apostasy” has been asked many times in many ways on this forum and the result has always been the same ~ there is absolutely not one scintilla of evidence for it in the first to second century. This is explained by Mormons the same way every time ~ the evidence has been destroyed. Of course, you must remember that WE are the “apostates” in the Mormon view, so, under that theory, our church would have had the motivation to destroy evidence.
One problem with this, and there are many, is that it is simply not practical. To destroy all evidence, if indeed something akin to “the great apostasy” had occurred, would require that every nook and cranny of the entire world be investigated and purged of any documentation of the event, particularly the Roman Empire around the time of the first-second century. It’s just not reasonable.
AND THEN there is the utter lack of scientific evidence to support the Book of Mormon stories as there is no DNA evidence of any relationship between modern day Native Americans and Jews emigrating from the Middle East several hundred years before Christ. Again, the explanation is that all such descendants were “destroyed”. Again, it’s just not reasonable.
What IS reasonable is to look to the Mormons themselves for the answer to this quandary. Deception and the hiding of evidence, the very thing that they accuse others of, is really just a projection of their own behavior. The origins of the Mormon faith are pretty strange. The details, when they can actually be examined, are often preposterous. So Mormons hide them. The weirder things are concealed from those investigating the faith. They use words and phrases that seem familiar without explaining that their definitions are completely different. Simply said, it’s a bit of a con game to get new members.
In contrast, we don’t hide the origins or doctrines of our Church. Our Church was founded by Jesus Christ, who is God, and He promised it would remain with His protection. The Mormon Church was founded by a man, Joseph Smith, and a very flawed man at that. I’ll take Jesus over Joseph Smith!
“The Great Apostasy”, similar to the Book of Mormon, is an elaborate fiction created by Joseph Smith to lend credibility to the religion he founded. Mormonism mimics Christianity in some ways, which confuses and at times even dupes those who do not delve too deeply into the details. But in the end it is a non-Christian, polytheistic faith.
The question about “The Great Apostasy” has been asked many times in many ways on this forum and the result has always been the same ~ there is absolutely not one scintilla of evidence for it in the first to second century. This is explained by Mormons the same way every time ~ the evidence has been destroyed. Of course, you must remember that WE are the “apostates” in the Mormon view, so, under that theory, our church would have had the motivation to destroy evidence.
One problem with this, and there are many, is that it is simply not practical. To destroy all evidence, if indeed something akin to “the great apostasy” had occurred, would require that every nook and cranny of the entire world be investigated and purged of any documentation of the event, particularly the Roman Empire around the time of the first-second century. It’s just not reasonable.
AND THEN there is the utter lack of scientific evidence to support the Book of Mormon stories as there is no DNA evidence of any relationship between modern day Native Americans and Jews emigrating from the Middle East several hundred years before Christ. Again, the explanation is that all such descendants were “destroyed”. Again, it’s just not reasonable.
What IS reasonable is to look to the Mormons themselves for the answer to this quandary. Deception and the hiding of evidence, the very thing that they accuse others of, is really just a projection of their own behavior. The origins of the Mormon faith are pretty strange. The details, when they can actually be examined, are often preposterous. So Mormons hide them. The weirder things are concealed from those investigating the faith. They use words and phrases that seem familiar without explaining that their definitions are completely different. Simply said, it’s a bit of a con game to get new members.
In contrast, we don’t hide the origins or doctrines of our Church. Our Church was founded by Jesus Christ, who is God, and He promised it would remain with His protection. The Mormon Church was founded by a man, Joseph Smith, and a very flawed man at that. I’ll take Jesus over Joseph Smith!
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rmcmullan
Guest
Get real, you’re taking the pope instead of Joseph Smith.Our Church was founded by Jesus Christ, who is God, and He promised it would remain with His protection. The Mormon Church was founded by a man, Joseph Smith, and a very flawed man at that. I’ll take Jesus over Joseph Smith!
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MelanieAnne
Guest
Well if that were the choice, I’d take our Pope over Joseph Smith too. Joseph Smith doesn’t have a lot to recommend him. Pope Benedict does.
But that’s not actually the issue. That’s a distraction, and not a particularly novel or clever one at that. Jesus founded our Church. Joseph Smith founded the Mormon church. There’s no contest, the Church founded by Jesus, which remains standing to this day because He promised it would, is a better choice than any church founded by a man.
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tommiatkins
Guest
I wonder if Jo would have manned Flack Guns for Hitler?
Stephen168
New member
Why, Heber J. Grant man flack guns for Hitler?
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MelanieAnne
Guest
Is there a point to this question? Or is this yet another failed attempt at cleverness?
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Jerusha
Guest
I know BY would have aimed for Goering or Himmler’s place. Or maybe wouldn’t have been satisfied with either.
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tommiatkins
Guest
It was in resonse to a statement that Ratzinger had a lot to reccomend him.Is there a point to this question? Or is this yet another failed attempt at cleverness?
Theres not *that *many Hitler Youth still alive. I’m pretty stunned that out of elevendy bazillion catholics God picked his name from the celestial hat.
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PaulDupre
Guest
Maybe God was just trying to get your attention. 
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MelanieAnne
Guest
I somehow doubt you actually know much about Ratzinger or Hitler Youth or a lot of other things for that matter.
In any event, Pope Benedict has far more to recommend him than Joseph Smith ever did, and that was the comparison. Any rational assessment of the two men would arrive at that conclusion.
But of course a rational assessment would have to include both detailed information and lack of bias, both of which appear to be lacking in your statements.
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