For Those Who Are Skeptical About God's Existence

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Some times people recover from illness, this is a statistical fact. . That fact that some of them might pray means nothing.

Let me put is to you this way, why does god never cure amputees?

Brother, you arguments would be thrown right out the window by any scientific jury or legal court. What do you mean by “illness”? The flu? Upset stomach, headache? The morning after sickness after too much partying? Testicular cancer with metastases to the brain, post radiation and chemotherapy? What kind of chemotherapy? Was the testicular cancer hormone-dependent? Liposarcoma, recurrence of metastases to the lung, within one year of surgery and radiation therapy, and then spontaneous regression with no treatment at all?

“Illness” without specifics just doesn’t cut it. At least not for serious investigators.

How about the doctor, the oncologist who treated this Hawaiian lady? He is a specialist in the field, and he was baffled by what happened. Are YOU a specialist in oncology?

And the same holds true with the bomb explosion inside the Cathedral of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico City, in 1921. I gave you details. Did you make ANY effort to reconstruct the situation in your mind and understand the details? Those who investigated the facts, in details, yes they investigated them scientifically, and concluded there was no natural explanation. You on the other hand, didn’t bother to study the details. Therefore, your hasty conclusions are useless. Thanks God detectives and forensic scientists are being taught a different work ethics (and mostly they do have a different work ethics - they pay attention to the details).

 

[anode]

Franciscan writers tell the story of how St. Anthony of Padua cured a boy with an amputed foot. Fact or legend?

Any such cures since then?

There were a lot of stories about levitation in the old days, but not since the invention of video. Anybody levitating these days? What about bilocation?

 

[anode]

Honestly, you have to be kidding. Wild claims and speculation. Why not give the image to the natural history museum and let them inspect it. Why such the usual secrecy, why not put a bomb next to it in front of 10000 witnesses and under scientific conditions?

miraclesofislam.com/

I guess its time to convert to Islam. LOOK Allah’s name is written on Africa!!!

http://www.miraclesofislam.com/africa.jpg

In fact forget your puny wee bomb, this Mosques Stood through** Earthquake and Tsunami**!!! Wow, well thats it for me.

http://www.miraclesofislam.com/indomosque1.jpeg

In situations like this, it must be a really tough job to look for purely non allah explanations… Heck, I’m sure it takes A LOT OF FAITH to deny the possibility of allah intervention! I don’t have enough faith for this kind of unshakeable nonislamism.

There are a lot of stories about the miraculous protection of religious objects–Muslim, Jewish, Christian, all sects. AND the ‘miraculous’ protection of NON-religious objects. It’s hard to explain why one thing and not another gets destroyed. Hardly the basis for ‘miracles’.

 

[itinerant1]

There are a lot of stories about the miraculous protection of religious objects–Muslim, Jewish, Christian, all sects. AND the ‘miraculous’ protection of NON-religious objects. It’s hard to explain why one thing and not another gets destroyed. Hardly the basis for ‘miracles’.

Agreed. Common talk and popular belief regarding an event does not guarantee that it is miraculous, at least as far as Catholic Church thinking is concerned. The Church is very cautious and conservative in officially declaring that any particular event is miraculous.

In order to avoid wasting time much time by randomly mentioning and commenting on whatever, the focus in this thread should be on discussing only those situations in which the Church has affirmed a miraculous event. Hence, there is available then a more solid foundation and reference in which to post pro or con commentary.

 

[itinerant1]

Any such cures since then?

There were a lot of stories about levitation in the old days, but not since the invention of video. Anybody levitating these days? What about bilocation?

Bilocation? Sure. Father Padre Pio, for one.

Levitation, as is commonly understood, is more a phenomena or alleged phenomena in the Orient, apparently a claimed ability by some Buddhists through many years of disciplined meditation. It is thought to be the enhancement of natural powers, and not a supernatural event. I once studied much literature in the ancient Buddhist tradition and its modern scholars such as D.T. Suzi, Watts, etc… There are many stories of greatly enhanced human abilities and unique abilities of various individuals. These abilities are the product of literally a lifetime of strict discipline and training of the mind and body. Some of the stories, and I won’t describe here which ones, involve credible witnesses, and very profound abilities, which I suspect are quite possible to achieve. Yet, again, they are natural abilities and not supernatural. The human being has much untapped potential, just on the natural level.

As far as “levitation” used loosely, and perhaps inaccurately, is concerned. Yes, there are numerous credible and well-documented accounts within Catholicism. The flying monk is well-known, he would “fly” around the monastery. Rapturous prayer is known to result in “levitation”. The Dominican monks report holding on to St. Thomas Aquinas as he rose from the church floor while rapt in prayer. St. Theresa of Avila experienced the same thing during ecstatic visions, all witnessed by other nuns. The accounts of these things within the Church are numerous.

In conclusion, there are far more things in heaven and earth than are even dreamed of in your world-view.

 

[itinerant1]

This focus here on cures does not mean too much. Cures happen miraculously. And witnessing a miracle benefits the skeptic and the believer who is weak in the faith. Those who are strong in the faith do not need to pay undue attention to miracles, happily accepting all as God’s personal involvement with His creation.

Miraculous physical healing is not God’s greatest work by any means. The daily conversion of and spiritual healing of sinners is by far a much greater work of God. The blessing of a physical healing of the body cannot be compared to the greatness of the spiritual healing of the soul.

 

[itinerant1]

Question:

Are there any Protestant Incorruptibles?

 

[anode]

Question:

Are there any Protestant Incorruptibles?

Protestants don’t dig up their dead to try to prove anything. They revere their heroes by the way these individuals led their lives.

It is a very bad idea to try to ‘prove’ anything other than by the events during a person’s lifetime. Many of the saints led what are very poorly documented lifetimes, by current standards. Many were just downright mentally imbalanced like Rose of Lima who basically tortured herself to death, or like Vicente Ferrer, who was a vicious anti-Semite. As many previous posts have discussed, none of the so-called incorruptibles are incorrupt; they were mummified or distinctly tampered with, like the much ballyhooed Bernadette. Bodies have distinct ways of rotting, depending on their state when they died and the conditions under which they were interred.

 

[anode]

To be honest i don’t think you will have much luck convincing Atheists of the existence of God. Atheists are in general pretty dug in for their beliefs, Which are more or less ego worship. i was once one i know how hard it can be to believe
.

Speak for yourself in your ego worship. Most atheists don’t worship themselves, or anyone or anything, for that matter–well, perhaps, reason.

 

[anode]

Bilocation? Sure. Father Padre Pio, for one.

Levitation, as is commonly understood, is more a phenomena or alleged phenomena in the Orient, apparently a claimed ability by some Buddhists through many years of disciplined meditation. It is thought to be the enhancement of natural powers, and not a supernatural event. I once studied much literature in the ancient Buddhist tradition and its modern scholars such as D.T. Suzi, Watts, etc… There are many stories of greatly enhanced human abilities and unique abilities of various individuals. These abilities are the product of literally a lifetime of strict discipline and training of the mind and body. Some of the stories, and I won’t describe here which ones, involve credible witnesses, and very profound abilities, which I suspect are quite possible to achieve. Yet, again, they are natural abilities and not supernatural. The human being has much untapped potential, just on the natural level.

As far as “levitation” used loosely, and perhaps inaccurately, is concerned. Yes, there are numerous credible and well-documented accounts within Catholicism. The flying monk is well-known, he would “fly” around the monastery. Rapturous prayer is known to result in “levitation”. The Dominican monks report holding on to St. Thomas Aquinas as he rose from the church floor while rapt in prayer. St. Theresa of Avila experienced the same thing during ecstatic visions, all witnessed by other nuns. The accounts of these things within the Church are numerous.

In conclusion, there are far more things in heaven and earth than are even dreamed of in your world-view.

I don’t know any recent credible descriptions of levitation or bilocation. Teresa of Avila and Thomas Aquinas are not recent. Teresa and her nuns lived in a 16th c. Spanish hyper-religious environment where reports of ‘miracles’ and wonders were rampant. Teresa was idolized by her nuns and widely accepted as a saint within her lifetime. Doubtless Tomas received as much, although a different, type of adulation. In order for these paranormal phenomena to be recognized as real, they must be witnessed and documented like any other event, preferably not with notoriously unreliable eyewitnesses, as many criminal investigation have shown, but with documented and credible* physical evidence*, which for these phenomena means documentation in time and space. Allegations of these events have disappeared as we have entered the modern age. Any *documentation *of bilocation of Padre Pio? He was recognized as a saint in his lifetime, a perfect setup.

The power of suggestion is great, as recent medical studies of the placebo effect have shown. It is amazing that no studies of the placebo effect have been performed until recently. It has been shown repeatedly that testimonials regarding the efficacy of various remedies, the most recent being glucosamine/chondroitin, have broken down when truly objective double-blind studies were performed. Someone finally decided to study the effect of placebo and it was found to be so powerful, that placebos have started to be prescribed as a form of treatment! I suspect that a similar power of suggestion is at work with these ‘phenomena’.

 

[itinerant1]

Protestants don’t dig up their dead to try to prove anything. They revere their heroes by the way these individuals led their lives.

It is a very bad idea to try to ‘prove’ anything other than by the events during a person’s lifetime. Many of the saints led what are very poorly documented lifetimes, by current standards. Many were just downright mentally imbalanced like Rose of Lima who basically tortured herself to death, or like Vicente Ferrer, who was a vicious anti-Semite. As many previous posts have discussed, none of the so-called incorruptibles are incorrupt; they were mummified or distinctly tampered with, like the much ballyhooed Bernadette. Bodies have distinct ways of rotting, depending on their state when they died and the conditions under which they were interred.

LOL

 

[itinerant1]

I don’t know any recent credible descriptions of levitation or bilocation. Teresa of Avila and Thomas Aquinas are not recent. Teresa and her nuns lived in a 16th c. Spanish hyper-religious environment where reports of ‘miracles’ and wonders were rampant. Teresa was idolized by her nuns and widely accepted as a saint within her lifetime. Doubtless Tomas received as much, although a different, type of adulation. In order for these paranormal phenomena to be recognized as real, they must be witnessed and documented like any other event, preferably not with notoriously unreliable eyewitnesses, as many criminal investigation have shown, but with documented and credible* physical evidence*, which for these phenomena means documentation in time and space. Allegations of these events have disappeared as we have entered the modern age. Any *documentation *of bilocation of Padre Pio? He was recognized as a saint in his lifetime, a perfect setup.

The power of suggestion is great, as recent medical studies of the placebo effect have shown. It is amazing that no studies of the placebo effect have been performed until recently. It has been shown repeatedly that testimonials regarding the efficacy of various remedies, the most recent being glucosamine/chondroitin, have broken down when truly objective double-blind studies were performed. Someone finally decided to study the effect of placebo and it was found to be so powerful, that placebos have started to be prescribed as a form of treatment! I suspect that a similar power of suggestion is at work with these ‘phenomena’.

LOL

 

[itinerant1]

Speak for yourself in your ego worship. Most atheists don’t worship themselves, or anyone or anything, for that matter–well, perhaps, reason.

Apparently you have never read the insightful study entitled, The Gods of Atheism.

 

[itinerant1]

honestly, you have to be kidding. Wild claims and speculation. Why not give the image to the natural history museum and let them inspect it. Why such the usual secrecy, why not put a bomb next to it in front of 10000 witnesses and under scientific conditions? :d

miraclesofislam.com/

i guess its time to convert to islam. Look allah’s name is written on africa!!!

http://www.miraclesofislam.com/africa.jpg

in fact forget your puny wee bomb, this mosques stood through** earthquake and tsunami**!!! Wow, well thats it for me.

http://www.miraclesofislam.com/indomosque1.jpeg

in situations like this, it must be a really tough job to look for purely non allah explanations… Heck, i’m sure it takes a lot of faith to deny the possibility of allah intervention! I don’t have enough faith for this kind of unshakeable nonislamism.

lol :d

 

[itinerant1]

This body is covered by a wax mask which was made after the body was washed and began to turn color–something which wouldn’t happen if it was ‘miraculously’ incorrupt. A number of the so-called incorrupt are simply mummified corpses which did not rot in the usual way. This is not hard to understand if you realize that many of these died after long illnesses in which they used up their body fat and that their intestines were empty, so that they were virtually mummified before they died, and placed in a sealed casket above ground ir in a vault above ground. The face of St. Bernadette does not resemble that on her last photo–in her casket–sunken eyes, very sharp nose, small thin mouth, small chin, a woman so thin that no body fat remained anywhere. Most of these corpses were also buried in well sealed caskets and many not buried at all, but placed in sealed caskets in vaults.

A recent poster on here or Phatmass visited Bernadette’s corpse in recent years and was able to see the rotted face under the mask.

A number of other corpses have been found to be ‘incorrupt’–such as one of the late Romanovs, disinterred for DNA. It’s not common because most people who die stay buried, and currently, are cremated.

A rather entertaining response. Thanks.

 

[teadough]

A rather entertaining response. Thanks.

Question .Do you honestly believe that is the real face of St. Bernadette? It is pretty common knowledge that she is wearing a wax mask.

Sorry if this shakes anyones faith but it is the absolute truth.

 

[Sonny1954]

I continue to try to believe in God, but it’s harder all the time. I suspect that any God is probably as the Deists perceive “him”. “He” does things on the basis of reason and is not swayed by emotional prayers. Or more likely still, “he” set up the physical laws of the universe then walked away.

 

[itinerant1]

Question .Do you honestly believe that is the real face of St. Bernadette? It is pretty common knowledge that she is wearing a wax mask.

Sorry if this shakes anyones faith but it is the absolute truth.

It’s a moot issue. I myself never made a single statement about the face of Bernadette. I merely posted a picture, but made no comment on the picture itself. Furthermore, no one’s faith is based on the condition of Bernadette’s face. Faith is a response to an experience. And Bernadette’s face has nothing to do with that experience.

 

[itinerant1]

Question .Do you honestly believe that is the real face of St. Bernadette? It is pretty common knowledge that she is wearing a wax mask.

Sorry if this shakes anyones faith but it is the absolute truth.

Just FYI: I never took this thread seriously because there weren’t any serious and significant arguments against the existence of God posted. While the skeptics were busy working on their “Bernadette’s face is covered with wax, therefore there is no God” kind of “logic”, I was posting jokes about atheism in another thread.

How many skeptics does it take to change a light bulb?
Actually, they won’t do it–they have no sense of urgency about the situation–they aren’t sure they’re really in the dark…

 

[itinerant1]

I continue to try to believe in God, but it’s harder all the time. I suspect that any God is probably as the Deists perceive “him”. “He” does things on the basis of reason and is not swayed by emotional prayers. Or more likely still, “he” set up the physical laws of the universe then walked away.

In other words, you think God created the universe, but he acts more like an absentee landlord.

What obstacles do you seem to have believing in the Christian God? Do you read the Bible much?