For those who say the Bible is "sufficient" for salvation

[MarcoPolo]

One of the opposing comments by Protestants against Catholics’ Sacred Tradition I hear is that the Bible is sufficient for salvation and no other revelation is needed. But what I don’t understand is why there is not a campaign on the part of such persons to eliminate those things in Scripture which are not necessary for salvation in the same sense.

For instance, the Bible attests to angels, but a Bible-believing Christian would have to acknowledge that whether or not a person believes in angels, as long as he believes that Christ died for our sins, he can be saved. No?

My point is: If the goal is to discard that which is considered unnecessary, then why not go all the way?

 

[ralphinal]

I have seen it said that when Luther tried to remove books from the New Testament, someone told him that in doing so, it would appear that he was trying to create a new faith instead of restoring the correct one. Perhaps it is fear that in altering the actual text too much, they will discredite themselves. Instead of removing, they will ignore. If it cannot be ignored, they alter the meaning. If it cannot be altered, they change the subject. Before anyone jumps on me, I know that protestants say the exact same thing about Catholics. There, I said it, no need to hijack the thread.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi MP, I don’t get what you are trying to say.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Hi MP, I don’t get what you are trying to say.

Take what John Piper says over at desiginggod.org for instance:
*[T]he Scriptures are sufficient in the sense that they are the only (“once for all”) inspired and (therefore) inerrant words of God that we need, in order to know the way of salvation…The sufficiency of Scripture means that we don’t need any more special revelation.*So if we are going to determine revelation based on whether or not it is necessary for salvation, why not discard the parts of the Bible that are not necessary for our salvation?

 

[Steadfast]

You mean like when Athanasius says,

“the sacred and inspired Scriptures are sufficient to declare the truth” (Against the Heathen, part 1, 1, 3)

Or when St. Gregory of Nyssa says,

we make the Holy Scriptures the rule and measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings. (On the Soul and Resurrection NPNF II, V:439)

Or when Basil the great says,

What is the mark of a faithful soul? To be in these dispositions of full acceptance on the authority of the words of Scripture, not venturing to reject anything nor making additions. For, if “all that is not of faith is sin” as the Apostle says, and “faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,” everything outside Holy Scripture, not being of faith, is sin.
(The Morals, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 9, p. 204.)

You mean that kind of sufficiency?

 

[BrianH]

One of the opposing comments by Protestants against Catholics’ Sacred Tradition I hear is that the Bible is sufficient for salvation and no other revelation is needed. But what I don’t understand is why there is not a campaign on the part of such persons to eliminate those things in Scripture which are not necessary for salvation in the same sense.

That would be contradictory. Have you been in many Protestant churches? Just asking.

 

[whatistruth]

I am amazed that anyone would claim that “Sola Scriptura” is enough for salvation and the only rule of faith. Those poor souls that did not have the New Testament scriptures between A.D.30 and A.D.51 when St.Paul wrote I Thessalonians. This kind of langauage says the Apostles teachings and preaching are not neccessary for salvation. I find it sad that Christ came to die for his Church and there are those who call themselves christians say “we do not need the Church, we have the Scriptures” this is teachings of a modern day Pharisee! I find it confusing when we read the scriptures and St.Paul refers to the Church as the Pillar and Foundation of Truth as he did not say the Scriptures were the Pillar and Foundation of Truth! I am confused with Christianity in America someone please put some sense into the erroneous doctrine of “Sola Scriptura”. The devil is having lots of fun with this unbiblical and unscriptual teaching of Bible alone!

Shalom

 

[Steadfast]

What is there that is not found in Scripture which it is necessary to know and believe in order to be saved?

 

[AgnosTheist]

So if we are going to determine revelation based on whether or not it is necessary for salvation, why not discard the parts of the Bible that are not necessary for our salvation?

I always hear both catholics & protestants justify that the Old Testament, even though most of it is practically ignored by christianity, still serves as a useful reference to how the new testament came out to be.

 

[whatistruth]

What is there that is not found in Scripture which it is necessary to know and believe in order to be saved?

The Apostolic teachings of the Church, you know the teachings and preaching that took place between A.D. 30 and A.D.51

Shalom

 

[whatistruth]

I always hear both catholics & protestants justify that the Old Testament, even though most of it is practically ignored by christianity, still serves as a useful reference to how the new testament came out to be.

“Jesus Christ is concealed in the Old Testament and revealed in the New Testament”-- St.Augustine

You can not have Jesus without the Old and New Testaments and without his Church-- the one he gave himself up for.

Shalom

 

[st_lucy]

I always hear both catholics & protestants justify that the Old Testament, even though most of it is practically ignored by Christianity, still serves as a useful reference to how the new testament came out to be.

This is not true since the Catholic Church is steeped in both the new and the old Testaments a trip to your local CC will attest to that.

 

[Metaron]

At one time I believed Sola Scriptura as much as anyone else. I was opposed to Catholicism 100%. However, I came to learn that *Sola Scriptura *is unscriptural, unhistorical, and untenable.

Sola Scriptura contradicts itself, because it is not taught in Scripture. So does the Perspicuity Doctrine, but that’s another issue.

Logics of this:

All necessary doctrines are self-evident in Scripture.
The Canon is not stated in Scripture.
Because it is not stated, it is not self-evident.
Because it is not self-evident, it must not be a necessary doctrine.

Which means, people can come up with their own canon, take books, add books, and formulate their own canon. That is totally irrational. I think you blew what the Fathers said way out of porportion. Besides, the Fathers have to be judged by the whole of Patristics, not on an individual basis. Still, I think you misinterpreted them.

 

[AgnosTheist]

This is not true since the Catholic Church is steeped in both the new and the old Testaments a trip to your local CC will attest to that.

really now? the Torah had about 610+ commandments. How much of that does the catholic church follow? Just the first 10?

 

[bengal_fan]

My point is: If the goal is to discard that which is considered unnecessary, then why not go all the way?

that’s not the goal.

the goal is to have one thing that is a supreme authority here on earth. the authority was given to the apostle’s and thier teaching were preserved in the scriptures.

catholics would say the church preserved the teaching of the apostles. i just have trouble with human beings being entrusted with supreme authority. Christ, trusts us and uses us but the Holy Spirit preserves His truth through the scriptures. this is why i believe in prima scriptura. there is much good to be found in tradtition and in the teaching of those who have gone before us, but it all must be able to stand up to scripture. it is the supreme authority (not the only, just the one that is above the others, just a catholic would say to an orthodox, “all the bishops are important but the pope is the supreme.”).

 

[Steadfast]

The Apostolic teachings of the Church, you know the teachings and preaching that took place between A.D. 30 and A.D.51

Shalom

Which of those teachings weren’t enscripturated?

All of them? Some of them?

Where’s the list?

 

[AgnosTheist]

“Jesus Christ is concealed in the Old Testament and revealed in the New Testament”-- St.Augustine

You can not have Jesus without the Old and New Testaments and without his Church-- the one he gave himself up for.

Shalom

As a Catholic, how much of the Old Testament are you required to know in order to be saved?

The OT is mostly useful as a reference for Christians. A nice thing to have, but not necessary to get to heaven.

 

[AgnosTheist]

that’s not the goal.

the goal is to have one thing that is a supreme authority here on earth. the authority was given to the apostle’s and thier teaching were preserved in the scriptures.

catholics would say the church preserved the teaching of the apostles. i just have trouble with human beings being entrusted with supreme authority. Christ, trusts us and uses us but the Holy Spirit preserves His truth through the scriptures. this is why i believe in prima scriptura. there is much good to be found in tradtition and in the teaching of those who have gone before us, but it all must be able to stand up to scripture. it is the supreme authority (not the only, just the one that is above the others, just a catholic would say to an orthodox, “all the bishops are important but the pope is the supreme.”).

Nicely said.

 

[BrianH]

Those poor souls that did not have the New Testament scriptures between A.D.30 and A.D.51 when St.Paul wrote I Thessalonians. This kind of langauage says the Apostles teachings and preaching are not neccessary for salvation.

Are you under the impression that Protestants think that the Apostles teaching and the Bible differ?

 

[pismopal]

In rural America there are non Catholic believers whose worship includes close physical contact with poisonous reptiles. They seem to believe that since the Bible mentions the handling of snakes that this is a requirement of Christians. There are many other examples of misguided Christian denominations which depend on the Bible alone, as determined by their own interpretation, for guidance.
Thank G-d for the Magesterium and Catholic Tradition.