For those who say the Bible is "sufficient" for salvation

[CalmDownWisWins]

Mgrfin,

You wrote: “ps is there a reason why you are screaming at us with your bold type. It is very annoying, counselor.”

Response: Sure is, it’s called pointing out hypocrisy … which is also very annoying, at least to someone trained in logic when dealing with those who are illogical. Thankfully, most of you aren’t. Thus far, you are the greatest offender. I would love to get you on the stand … you’re head would be spinning my friend.

You’re “logic” in using misdefinitions of terms, and then not seeing the “logic” of proving a proof of yours is not a proof is very clever indeed.

It’s got **my **“head spinning”!

Your ability to infallibly claim that infallibility is impossible is mindboggling. Keep talking. You’re lawerly BS is quite the sight!

 

[mgrfin]

Mgrfin,

You wrote: “ps is there a reason why you are screaming at us with your bold type. It is very annoying, counselor.”

Response: Sure is, it’s called pointing out hypocrisy … which is also very annoying, at least to someone trained in logic when dealing with those who are illogical. Thankfully, most of you aren’t. Thus far, you are the greatest offender. I would love to get you on the stand … you’re head would be spinning my friend.

Hypocrisy? You don’t know me, and you don’t know anything about me.

Where did you learn that you can make personal attacks against individuals, against Forum Rules.

You are a lawyer making unsubstantiated claims. A judge would throw you out of court without a blink.

peace

 

[stmaria]

Do you have a transcript of God’s testimony? How do you know what God told you? The answer is you don’t. You believe what the Church says God told them. Great answer. Absolutely no support and you claim it to be incapable of retort. Absolutely breathtaking in comparison to a 5 year old. I think I’m done responding to you. And, by the way, you’re no better than many of the Bob Jones protestants from which you come. No support and “we’re the only one’s going to heaven.” God help you. I also bet you’re an ornery old man of … what … about 70? Precious. Come back with some support, or simply claim “faith” all you want. But you’re fooling no one, except maybe yourself.

Krocker I see that you belong to a non-denominational faith of some kind. That means that you believe in nothing. Everything is truth. No wonder you are so angry and so abusive in your posts. You are lost and you don’t know how to deal with it because you don’t even know what Truth is.

 

[mgrfin]

\

Krocker,

God did not reveal anything to you personally. To claim such is pure blasphemy.

But, if you take up the Bible which the Catholic Church gave you,
read:
Mat 16: 18-19 “And I say to thee: That thou are Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail upon it.
And I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, I will bind also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shalt be also loosed in heaven”.

This commission was given to the Church, not your little non-denominational church, but to the Catholic Church.

If you have so much faith in the 95 Theses, you should become a Lutheran. I can’t help your “Marian cult” remark, except to say it is hatefilled.

You claim to be a lawyer, but you obviously lack the class of members of that profession. Going around accusing people, total strangers, of hypocrispy is just over the top.

peace

 

[Bible_Believer]

Krocker I see that you belong to a non-denominational faith of some kind. That means that you believe in nothing. Everything is truth. No wonder you are so angry and so abusive in your posts. You are lost and you don’t know how to deal with it because you don’t even know what Truth is.

Pardon me for jumping in here…I havent given any (name removed by moderator)ut to this thread even though I have read most of it. When I am off work next week I would like to add some points respectfully, but may I say that I dont agree with what you said about non denominational churches. I do happen to know alot of people, plus even some of my family go to a nondenominational church and that was a low blow you gave to Krocker…and I think it was more aimed towards being angry with him…You are wrong though…the non denominational church is NOT a non believing, lost church, and they dont believe just anything and everything.
I myself am not non denominational…yet Im also not catholic. I belong to a Baptist church. My cousin, who is non denomination is a Godly Christian woman who loves the Lord and is truly NOT lost.

 

[mgrfin]

Pardon me for jumping in here…I havent given any (name removed by moderator)ut to this thread even though I have read most of it. When I am off work next week I would like to add some points respectfully, but may I say that I dont agree with what you said about non denominational churches. I do happen to know alot of people, plus even some of my family go to a nondenominational church and that was a low blow you gave to Krocker…and I think it was more aimed towards being angry with him…You are wrong though…the non denominational church is NOT a non believing, lost church, and they dont believe just anything and everything.
I myself am not non denominational…yet Im also not catholic. I belong to a Baptist church. My cousin, who is non denomination is a Godly Christian woman who loves the Lord and is truly NOT lost.

I apologize if you took personal affront to what I said. However, it was in a context where Krocker personally attacked the Roman Catholic Church, telling us we made it all up, and that Marian devotion is a cult, and he personally called me a hypocrite.

I don’t know where he attacks me for my age - age prejudice. He doesn’t know how old I am. I definitely am not 70. I could be a high school senior for all he knows. But, an attack is an attack, when you are in that mode.

How about a little fairness here? Share your indignation with others, and at others who are demeaning of our Catholic faith, and Mary, the Mother of God, lest you won’t be believed. Did you intend your criticism to be biased and one-sided?

peace

 

[suupah]

Which of those teachings weren’t enscripturated?

All of them? Some of them?

Where’s the list?

Do you believe that the Gospels and Letters were intended to be systematic theology texts? Were they intended to be comprehensive Catechisms on the faith?

I believe using Paul’s letters in that way is like taking 14 of my emails and trying to get the full picture of my life.

 

[Bible_Believer]

I apologize if you took personal affront to what I said. However, it was in a context where Krocker personally attacked the Roman Catholic Church, telling us we made it all up, and that Marian devotion is a cult, and he personally called me a hypocrite.

I don’t know where he attacks me for my age - age prejudice. He doesn’t know how old I am. I definitely am not 70. I could be a high school senior for all he knows. But, an attack is an attack, when you are in that mode.

How about a little fairness here? Share your indignation with others, and at others who are demeaning of our Catholic faith, and Mary, the Mother of God, lest you won’t be believed. Did you intend your criticism to be biased and one-sided?

peace

for goodness sakes…will you please chill out?? Indignation?? Honestly, I thought I was fairly nice…I wasnt trying to start a fued…that just doesnt accomplish anything, and frankly, the enemy would love nothing better than to cause division while talking about His word. No, I really didnt mean any criticism to be one sided or anything, and please…its ok…no harm done on the non denominational thing…I dont take things personally THAT easily…I just thought what you said was wrong, and please notice…that I did not put down your faith…that wasnt my intent. That is the beauty of living in a country as we do…we have the freedom to worship as we see fit. If others demean your faith, Im sorry, but I did not. Now, can we all just get along…its REALLY ok to not agree on everything! It doesnt mean Im putting you down if I dont embrace the Catholic faith…and I dont think any the less of you for not embracing my Bible believing ways.
I truly agree with the way you end your posts…PEACE…now lets keep it…deal?? It much more fun to be friends than be at each other’s throats!

 

[mgrfin]

for goodness sakes…will you please chill out?? Indignation?? Honestly, I thought I was fairly nice…I wasnt trying to start a fued…that just doesnt accomplish anything, and frankly, the enemy would love nothing better than to cause division while talking about His word. No, I really didnt mean any criticism to be one sided or anything, and please…its ok…no harm done on the non denominational thing…I dont take things personally THAT easily…I just thought what you said was wrong, and please notice…that I did not put down your faith…that wasnt my intent. That is the beauty of living in a country as we do…we have the freedom to worship as we see fit. If others demean your faith, Im sorry, but I did not. Now, can we all just get along…its REALLY ok to not agree on everything! It doesnt mean Im putting you down if I dont embrace the Catholic faith…and I dont think any the less of you for not embracing my Bible believing ways.
I truly agree with the way you end your posts…PEACE…now lets keep it…deal?? It much more fun to be friends than be at each other’s throats!

Well, you addressed your comments to SantaMaria, not me.

I chimed in because Krocker made a personal attack on me (called me a hypocrite), called our devotion to Mary, the Mother of God a cult, and basically said that all of Catholicism was made up.

I can see you won’t critize him. Must be that non-denominational thing, sticking together.

A lot of words from you, for not purpose.

peace.

 

[po18guy]

One of the opposing comments by Protestants against Catholics’ Sacred Tradition I hear is that the Bible is sufficient for salvation and no other revelation is needed. But what I don’t understand is why there is not a campaign on the part of such persons to eliminate those things in Scripture which are not necessary for salvation in the same sense.

For instance, the Bible attests to angels, but a Bible-believing Christian would have to acknowledge that whether or not a person believes in angels, as long as he believes that Christ died for our sins, he can be saved. No?

My point is: If the goal is to discard that which is considered unnecessary, then why not go all the way?

The Lord alone determines that which is necessary. That is why there is salvation for the invincibly ignorant. Our salvation does not depend upon the depth of our knowledge of God and all that exists on earth and in Heaven. His Grace is sufficient. The bible may or may not have anything to do with that grace.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bible Believer
for goodness sakes…will you please chill out?? etc etc etc…
…

I can see you won’t critize him. Must be that non-denominational thing, sticking together.

A lot of words from you, for not purpose.

peace.

OK. Knock it off you lunk-heads! Why do I suddenly feel like Moe Howard?

But seriously, I await with bated breath the lawyerly profundity of our friend Krocker. His angry vehemence, and incoherent thinking, is quite understandable, pitiable, and worthy of our sympathy. What would YOU expect to come from a poor soul who claims to speaks “authoritatively” in an area in which he obviously knows absolutely nothing?

He would object to that, of course, and claim HE is the (infallible!) authority in the topic which we’re discussing, but even that is to be expected from the materialist quarter of the theater in which he is firmly seated.

When God speaks, He is to be listened to and obeyed. The materialist considers himself “God”. To him, then, what is our expected response? Is it not sensible that his frustration and anger would ensue if we don’t do the expected?

I think we believers, who agree that we all believe what we believe for reasons that are vaild to us, can agree that those who refuse to agree with that proposition are to be pitied, and helped with charity to buy a vowel in the great cosmic game of Wheel of Fortune that we all strive to win, whether we believe in the full deposit of faith or some subset thereof.

(( OK, was that too flippant and end!? ))

 

[mgrfin]

Calling me a lunk-head is too flippant. Put that in the same critical category as ‘hypocrite’.

I’ve already contributed to this thread. It has now wondered off, and is going nowhere but downhill.

I’ll leave the place to the rest of you.

peace

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

CalmDownWisWins;3110611:

…

Calling me a lunk-head is too flippant. Put that in the same critical category as ‘hypocrite’.

I’ve already contributed to this thread. It has now wondered off, and is going nowhere but downhill.

I’ll leave the place to the rest of you.

peace

This thread still has some life in it, such as when (if) Krocker responds, but it is getting a bit silly around here, I’ll grant you.

And I don’t think you’re REALLY a lunk-head! That’s just a figure of speech, especially when followed by a reference to Moe Howard (The Three Stooges “boss” for the American cultural trivia challenged), so don’t get the proverbial panties in a knot, thank you very much!

Anyway, I love 'ya MG. I haven’t seen where you’re a hypocrit anywhere, so keep up the good work!

 

[Krocker]

This thread is impossible. You guys are so entrenched in your beliefs you refuse to look at reason. Fine, so be it. Good luck. But don’t tell me your beliefs are “reasonable” anymore. They’re no more reasonable than anyone else’s – you just start from the arrogant point that “we’re right, so prove us wrong” and require everyone else to start from “we have to prove you right.” Oh, and I know you’ll have a “good” reason, you always do … something like using the “gates of hell” or a tense of a greek word … something really “reasonable” like that – you just have to ignore human nature, chromosomes, DNA, BAC tests, etc., etc., (but really, it’s quite reasonable). If you can’t see that this is tenuous to anyone who doesn’t share your blind beliefs, there is no hope for you. Or maybe it’s because God reveals directly to the RCC (which apparently is entirely reasonable, but He can’t reveal to anyone else … because that would be unreasonable and silly … wouldn’t it?).

You refuse the most basic concepts so you don’t have to think – “faith is not an unprovable belief, I can prove it because I’m in the RCC”. Oh yeah?, read a dictionary, pretty early on in the "F"s. I’m not trying to convert anyone here … just get you to THINK instead of blindly believe. You, obviously, are a bunch of blind faithers. Very comfortable on your Catholic thread, but I assure you that you will look like baffoons if you use your “logic” anywhere outside of it. Whatever. Enjoy your obliviousnes. I’ll go find a thread with some thinkers, rather than regurgitators.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

This thread is impossible. You guys are so entrenched in your beliefs you refuse to look at reason. Fine, so be it. Good luck. But don’t tell me your beliefs are “reasonable” anymore. They’re no more reasonable than anyone else’s – you just start from the arrogant point that “we’re right, so prove us wrong” and require everyone else to start from “we have to prove you right.” Oh, and I know you’ll have a “good” reason, you always do … something like using the “gates of hell” or a tense of a greek word … something really “reasonable” like that – you just have to ignore human nature, chromosomes, DNA, BAC tests, etc., etc., (but really, it’s quite reasonable). If you can’t see that this is tenuous to anyone who doesn’t share your blind beliefs, there is no hope for you. Or maybe it’s because God reveals directly to the RCC (which apparently is entirely reasonable, but He can’t reveal to anyone else … because that would be unreasonable and silly … wouldn’t it?).

It would be nice if you would actually respond to what others say, and not simply complain that because we disagree with you we’re insane.

You refuse the most basic concepts so you don’t have to think – “faith is not an unprovable belief, I can prove it because I’m in the RCC”. Oh yeah?, read a dictionary, pretty early on in the "F"s. I’m not trying to convert anyone here … just get you to THINK instead of blindly believe. You, obviously, are a bunch of blind faithers. Very comfortable on your Catholic thread, but I assure you that you will look like baffoons if you use your “logic” anywhere outside of it. Whatever. Enjoy your obliviousnes. I’ll go find a thread with some thinkers, rather than regurgitators.

Why would we use “Catholic (religious) logic” anywhere BUT when dealing with religious things?

What you refuse to see is that you are discussing things which you know nothing about as if they were “materialistic” things in a materialistic context, while they actually are “religious” things in a religious context.

I’ve heard nothing from you that sounds anything like bald-faced assertion without support and which invariably shows your unresponsiveness, due to anger at being “bested”, to our explanations of your “issues” with OUR beliefs.

You want us to “convert” to being like you, and you get angry when we don’t. You are exhibiting precisely the results of atheism in human society! You would change us violently if you could, and would enslave us as “under-men” if we didn’t.

Thank you most gratefully for illustrating the slaver mentality of your kind.

Best to you in your search for that which is not findable. May you discover the futility of it sooner rather then later. We’ll be praying for God’s grace to be welcomed by you.

 

[Bible_Believer]

It would be nice if you would actually respond to what others say, and not simply complain that because we disagree with you we’re insane.

Why would we use “Catholic (religious) logic” anywhere BUT when dealing with religious things?

What you refuse to see is that you are discussing things which you know nothing about as if they were “materialistic” things in a materialistic context, while they actually are “religious” things in a religious context.

I’ve heard nothing from you that sounds anything like bald-faced assertion without support and which invariably shows your unresponsiveness, due to anger at being “bested”, to our explanations of your “issues” with OUR beliefs.

You want us to “convert” to being like you, and you get angry when we don’t. You are exhibiting precisely the results of atheism in human society! You would change us violently if you could, and would enslave us as “under-men” if we didn’t.

Thank you most gratefully for illustrating the slaver mentality of your kind.

Best to you in your search for that which is not findable. May you discover the futility of it sooner rather then later. We’ll be praying for God’s grace to be welcomed by you.

I think you are making some very unfair statements to Krocker.
He HAS tried to respond to what folks say, and I have seen no where that he has said anyone is insane. He is also not trying to convert anyone, and especially I am fairly certain he wouldnt do it violently…even if he could. That was unfair of you to say. What is it, if I may ask that is unfindable that you are wishing him in his search of?? In God’s Word lies the answer to everything,and that is what I thought this thread is about. Im really not trying to be ugly, and I have already asked forgiveness in here for getting a little…uh…overly zealous in my way of making a point, but Krocker is not the bad guy…well…no one is…bottom line…either the Word of God is the final authority in one’s life…or it isnt… and for me…it is.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

I think you are making some very unfair statements to Krocker.
He HAS tried to respond to what folks say, and I have seen no where that he has said anyone is insane. He is also not trying to convert anyone, and especially I am fairly certain he wouldnt do it violently…even if he could. That was unfair of you to say.

Unfair? A bit hyperbolic perhaps, but not unfair. His unresponsiveness is the point I’m most “annoyed” about.

If you don’t see that he’s trying to “convert” people to his essentially materialistic atheistic thinking then I’m afraid you’re just not being very perceptive as to what he actually writes.

His anger is palpable. Since all that we can fling at each other here are “photons” (or pixels) the very most he CAN be in the way of violence is “angry”. Anger is trying to use force to “force one’s way”, which is basically his trying to coerce us to change to suit him.

That, in this verbal realm, is attempted violent conversion. If you don’t see it that way, that’s fine, as I can’t very well get angry at you about not agreeing with you after what I’ve just said, now can I.

What is it, if I may ask that is unfindable that you are wishing him in his search of??

He wants external proof of something that has no external proof. That unfindable thing, if he continues to search for it, which I don’t really think he is by the way, will only produce frustration. But, since he’s not REALLY searching for that unfindable thing, because he actually DOES know it’s not findable, what he’s doing is trying to simply confuse and “throw off the opposition” by DEMANDING the impossible from potentially weak believers who then try to find meaningful materialistic “proofs” to his demands and merely look weak and silly (and foolish) in their attempts to do the impossible.

It’s a typical “baffle them with BS” routine that atheo-materialists use to make their enemies look foolish, because they (the atheo-materialists) are simply unequiped to converse in the subject area in question (religion).

In God’s Word lies the answer to everything,and that is what I thought this thread is about. Im really not trying to be ugly, and I have already asked forgiveness in here for getting a little…uh…overly zealous in my way of making a point, but Krocker is not the bad guy…well…no one is…bottom line…either the Word of God is the final authority in one’s life…or it isnt… and for me…it is.

Krocker’s not a bad guy for having his beliefs. He’s a bad guy for calling others “unreasonable”, “arrogant”, “blind believers”, “unthinking”, “buffons”, and “regurgitators”.

I personally understand where Krocker is coming from, and completely agree with him, other than on the issue that infallibility is an impossibility, on what he believes considering what his premises are.

But he can’t even see how it’s possible to HAVE our beliefs because he can’t accept our premises as even BEING premises.

Should he choose to actually respond to other’s comments such that we can have a mutual conversation about the reasonings behind beliefs, instead of simply his making assertions without support and discounting others opinions out of hand due to their “inherent religious ludicrousness”, perhaps we can have a good exchange of ideas?

 

[mgrfin]

I think you are making some very unfair statements to Krocker.
He HAS tried to respond to what folks say, and I have seen no where that he has said anyone is insane. He is also not trying to convert anyone, and especially I am fairly certain he wouldnt do it violently…even if he could. That was unfair of you to say. What is it, if I may ask that is unfindable that you are wishing him in his search of?? In God’s Word lies the answer to everything,and that is what I thought this thread is about. Im really not trying to be ugly, and I have already asked forgiveness in here for getting a little…uh…overly zealous in my way of making a point, but Krocker is not the bad guy…well…no one is…bottom line…either the Word of God is the final authority in one’s life…or it isnt… and for me…it is.

Incomplete answer.

It is Divine Revelation as revealed in the Roman Catholic Church that is God’s final authority in one’s life.

peace